Can Homosexuality Be Proved Wrong From Natural Law

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For Ender,
Something may be wrong because;
  1. It causes harm.
  2. It breaks a promise.
  3. It goes against some value.
  4. It obstructs some duty I have.
  5. If everyone did it society would function less well
    etc etc
I cannot give a satisfactory general philosophical account of right and wrong nor can anyone.
Nevertheless the common ground you want it given by the everyday use of these terms.
I understand that many people would consider these to be examples of wrongs but this gives no explanation of your basis for asserting that these are anything more than your personal choices. You have several times complained that someone’s claim regarding right and wrong is arbitrary; how is your list any different? Take #3: homosexual behavior goes against the values of many but you don’t accept that homosexual behavior is wrong so how can this be a valid criterion? Number 5 may be an even greater problem: if everyone was a homosexual, society would simply cease to exist because it wouldn’t reproduce - so doesn’t this make homosexual behavior wrong according to your own criteria?

Besides, I didn’t really ask for a generic list of rights and wrongs. The topic here specifically references Natural Law and whether homosexuality can be proven wrong according to it, so I’d like to know if you think anything can be shown to be wrong according to Natural Law and if so, how?

Ender
 
Being left handed, or missing an eye or whatever are not morality. It’s not a valid line of reasoning some are trying to go down.

Peace,

Steven
 
For Ender,
Something may be wrong because;
  1. It causes harm.
  2. It breaks a promise.
  3. It goes against some value.
  4. It obstructs some duty I have.
    5. If everyone did it society would function less well
    etc etc
I cannot give a satisfactory general philosophical account of right and wrong nor can anyone.
Nevertheless the common ground you want it given by the everyday use of these terms.

Best wishes

Laurie
Bolded above is the very reason I offered for the wrong-ness of homosexual coupling.
You rejected it as “not everyone does it.”
Yet here, you seem to understand my very point.

How very very very odd - and contradictory.
 
Ender
Socrates would be proud of you because that is exactly the question he would have asked. Howevr I am sorry but I cannot giveyou an account of the basis of my morality. Nor can any philosopher so how I am supposed to manage it I do not know.

Nevertheless we can talk because I am sure you agree that the things I listed and lots of others are wrong. So, going from the usual use of the concept of ‘wrong’, can you explain why an ‘unnatural act, as defined by you’ is also wrong.

Regards

Laurie
 
Grace & Peace!

Portrait, I’m sorry it’s taken me so long to get back to you…some days are good days for writing, others not so much.
That homosexual liasons such as yours can be loving is something that I would not deny (although a priori they cannot attain the same richness as the heterosexual mutuality God has ordained).
First, I want to thank you for seriously engaging my post. I value and appreciate the dialogue.

I don’t wish to launch, in this thread, a broad defense of homosexuality as that’s largely beyond the scope of the question as initially stated. For my purposes, my claim in this thread is that homosexual relationships are not necessarily immoral–that it is possible for homosexual relationships to bear good fruit and to contribute to the fulfillment of those who participate in them. This does not mean that all homosexual relationships are necessarily moral–but it means that they *can *be, just as not all heterosexual relationships are moral–but they can be.

Granted, this moral position does not place very heavy stress on natural law as a value which informs morality (and I will admit that I am not much of a Thomist, nor much of an Aristotelian). Or, rather, it assumes that what is natural is not merely an external or forensic value which is predicated on either normative culture or biology alone, but that it is a total value which considers actual human wholeness and its fulfillment to be the core value of morality. That it does not consider heterosexuality necessary to that fulfillment is not to say that it considers biology to be separate from human wholeness, or that it considers the body to be merely instrumental to the will (a belief that djeter suggests is at the root of this value system). In fact, I would argue that morality must ever more and more divorce itself from principally deriving value from instrumentality or utility–which includes no longer seeing sex as merely or primarily reproductive because those are the biological ends to which the genitals tend.

For me, the principles of this value system are as follows:

1–We are made, body and soul, to be in relationship.
2–Sexuality is an important part of our human relational capacity.
3–A properly ordered sexuality is a sexuality ordered toward loving human relationship.
4–The reproductive capacity of heterosexual relationships does not determine their value, but augments it in a particularly meaningful way.
5–That this capacity does not exist in homosexual relationships does not determine the value of homosexual relationships either.
6–The reproductive *capacity or potentiality *of any man or woman does not morally necessitate the *realization *of that capacity. Otherwise, celibacy, virginity, and impotency in its many forms would be immoral. But they are not.
7–What is immoral, however, is to frustrate the realization of the human relational capacity insofar as human flourishing and wholeness are impeded or denied.

I have a feeling we can find a lot of common ground in these principles. Where we differ , I would suppose, is in seeing the reproductive capacity as identical to the relational capacity (which is why Rome views homosexuality as disordered–the two capacities are out of synch–and because the body cannot be wrong, it must be a problem of the soul/will–but if the reproductive capacity does not assume the force of moral imperative, then body and soul are no longer out of synch, but instead form a unique human whole).

Such is my understanding, at any rate. Far be it from me, though, to assume that my understanding of this or of anything is complete, however!
However, the love-quality of such liasons is not sufficient to justify them.
We differ here as well–the love-quality of anything is sufficient to justify or condemn *everything. *Blessed John says that Love is God, and everyone that loveth is born of God and knoweth God. And Our Lord says that we know a tree by its fruit. If a relationship does not bear good fruit, we know it is not a good relationship.
Love is concerned for the highest welfare of the beloved and our highest human welfare is found in obedience to God’s law and purpose, not in revolt against them.
Agreed, though I would caution anyone who believed that obedience to God lay in following a moral code. Our Lord says, This is my commandment, that you love one another. Elsewhere he says, I am the Way. The Way is not a book of laws and ordinances, but an actual, real, whole human (and divine!) person.

(CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED AND COMPLETED)
Therefore, just as it is wrong to forcibly sick up one’s food to avoid weight gain and to try and catch a rugger ball with one’s eye, so it is wrong to use one’s sexual organs contrary to nature in homosexual deviant acts. Now surely if all of these unnatural actions are deemed to be wrong, in the sense of applied to the wrong purpose or teleological function, then they manifestly cannot be right and normal - the fundamental issue is one of design and purpose.
You mentioned some examples of structure informing telos, in turn suggesting what is natural, what unnatural, and in turn suggesting, to you, what is good and what lacks the good. I would like to provide some other examples and see what you think of them:

1–Written language. In most cultures, the advent of written language was hailed as the beginning of the end, an unnatural development that would destroy civilization eventually. Perhaps here we also gain a glimpse of why poetry is considered by many theorists to be equated with crime–it completely goes against the natural utility of language. (Much like, some may argue, the erotic goes against the “natural utility of sex.”) One could make a very good argument that art is generally an aberration of language, a perversion of the utility of communication or speech or an unnatural expenditure of excess cultural energy (see Bataille and the Theory of Religion) which could be more legitimately expended or destroyed through warfare or commerce (the naturalness of either also being a question).
2–Democracy. It is clear, at least from the Hebrew Testament, that human government generally was viewed with suspicion as being unnatural. But democracy has often been particularly chided as unnatural, when the clear hierarchy suggested by the chain of being derived from the order of the universe does not include representative democracy as part of the natural order of things. Monarchy, yes. Democracy, no.

Just a few thoughts! I hope I haven’t led us too too far afield from the original question.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Steven,

Being Left Handed has nothing to do with morality. CORRECT. However if you say that something being not-normal is therefore wrong IT WOULD HAVE SOMETHING TO WITH MORALITY.This shows that something can be not normal and also right - perhaps gay sex is so.

Laurie
 
Catherina,

Well spotted.

The correct and more precise formulation should be:

Something might be wrong if:-
It is something, that everyone would like to do, but if they did it would harm society.

It is not wrong to go on holiday to the Isle of Man even though everyone cannot do it - because everyone does not want to do it.

It is wrong to break your promise if it is to your advantage to do so, because everyone would like so to do.
Now if everyone was gay it might be wrong for a person to live in a childless gay couple because it would be disasterous if everyone did it - and everyone would want to.

But everyone is not gay and, if the 9% who are live in childless couples, it does not matter because the rest of us can populate the world happily.

Hope that clears up the matter. A side-line in this thread but an interesting one.

Best wishes

Laurie
 
Catherina,

Well spotted.

The correct and more precise formulation should be:

Something might be wrong if:-
It is something, that everyone would like to do, but if they did it would harm society.

It is not wrong to go on holiday to the Isle of Man even though everyone cannot do it - because everyone does not want to do it.

It is wrong to break your promise if it is to your advantage to do so, because everyone would like so to do.
Now if everyone was gay it might be wrong for a person to live in a childless gay couple because it would be disasterous if everyone did it - and everyone would want to.

But everyone is not gay and, if the 9% who are live in childless couples, it does not matter because the rest of us can populate the world happily.

Hope that clears up the matter. A side-line in this thread but an interesting one.

Best wishes

Laurie
… and I repeat:

see: Post # 143

This is not a sideline, but an essential truth.
Your back-pedal is insufficient since you attribute your “formulation” to no one.
You have fallen victim to your own primary logical statement.
That is the nature of logic.

repeating Post # 143:

*Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurie Gibson
For Ender,
Something may be wrong because;
  1. It causes harm.
  2. It breaks a promise.
  3. It goes against some value.
  4. It obstructs some duty I have.
    5. If everyone did it society would function less well
    etc etc

    I cannot give a satisfactory general philosophical account of right and wrong nor can anyone.
    Nevertheless the common ground you want it given by the everyday use of these terms.
Best wishes

Laurie *

catharina:
Bolded above is the very reason I offered for the wrong-ness of homosexual coupling.
You rejected it as “not everyone does it.”
Yet here, you seem to understand my very point.
How very very very odd - and contradictory.
 
Catherina,

As I teach ethics you may suppose that I do know a little about it. Let me explain.

When we think of some action and wonder ‘what if everyone did it?’ that is fine, but we need to think quite carefully.

Take the action of remaining celibate as Catholic priests do. Obviously if everyone did this the human race would die out - a bad thing. However Catholic priests being celibate is not a bad thing. Why? Because everyone else does not want to do it.

Other things such as not repaying ones debts is something everyone would like to do if it were possible. But obviously if everyone did it - disaster! So that is why it is wrong not to repay one’s debts.

As most people are not gay, do not want to be gay, couldn’t be gay, it would seem that the situation is similar to the Catholic priest situation would you not say?

Please read this carefully, I hope it is clear.

Good wishes

Laurie
 
Laurie, are you sloppy in your teaching?
I ask becuase if I had not pinned you down,
wouldn’t you have allowed your sloppy theory to stand, unchallenged?

Only my challenge caused you to amend your statment. Yes?
 
Deo Valente
3–A properly ordered sexuality is a sexuality ordered toward loving human relationship.
7–What* is* immoral, however, is to frustrate the realization of the human relational capacity insofar as human flourishing and wholeness are impeded or denied.
D Gibson (who teaches ethics)
I cannot give a satisfactory general philosophical account of right and wrong nor can anyone
.
If that is the best that those above can devise, all that is demonstrated is selfist, personal prejudice – the modernist infatuation with “relationships”, whatever that might mean, to the exclusion of all natural moral law morality down through the ages, and the substitution of meaningless “flourishing” and “wholeness” terms as against the twin ends of marriage and sexuality – unity and procreation.

St Paul in the teaching of Sacred Scripture characterizes lesbian and homosexual activity as a heinous sin (Rom 1:26-32), “shameful”, from a “debased mind”, “error” as well as “against nature”. St Thomas Aquinas (an immensely influential philosopher) proclaimed its wrongness, and yet we are still bombarded with the absurdity that such activity is NOT wrong and that no one can give a “satisfactory general philosophical account of right and wrong,” which expresses precisely the morass of confusion and denial which has corrupted society.

What these travesties are giving us is the philosophy and consequent ethics of secular humanism – separating the Creator from His creation of mankind imbued with these directives from the Creator.
.
rtforum.org/lt/lt91.html (Msgr John F McCarthy, Oct. 2000)
Excerpts:
“The United States has seen in the course of the 20th century a horrifying expansion of sexual impurity and eroticism, even in terms of its public endorsement and the legal protection of its worst fomenters. Underlying this decline lay the philosophy of secular humanism, promoted in private and in public by a multitude of operators. In an address to the Wanderer Forum in 1967, entitled ‘The Challenge of the Year of Faith,’ I noted that ‘Where God is not found, there is lacking also the supreme insight behind all thought, there is lacking the prime motive of morality, there is lacking the ultimate key to reality as a whole.’ It is the goal of secular humanism to separate every reference to Almighty God, to God the Creator, to God the Redeemer, from all sectors of public life and eventually even from every sector of private life. Secular humanists are rationalists: they ‘deplore’ every effort to recognize interventions of God or ‘to look outside nature for salvation.’ They oppose any limitation of sexual orientation in obedience to the natural moral law. They ‘believe in enjoying life here and now,’ without sacrificing anything for the sake of the future life.”
 
My dear Catherina, please try and display the charity for which your religion is famous. Your aggression is out of place.

There is not time to qualify every remark made on a thread like this. But where someone wishes the qualifications to be made then I am happy to make them.

But - returning to the subject of the thread. If something is unnatural why is it wrong?

Best wishes,

Laurie
 
My dear Catherina, please try and display the charity for which your religion is famous. Your aggression is out of place.

There is not time to qualify every remark made on a thread like this. But where someone wishes the qualifications to be made then I am happy to make them.

But - returning to the subject of the thread. If something is unnatural why is it wrong?

Best wishes,

Laurie
Laurie, we have continually pointed out that just because something is unnatural doesn’t mean it’s wrong. That is not the subject of this thread. With this statement you have agreed.

Your question should be, “why are certain unnatural human behaviours considered to be wrong under a Natural Law derived code of morality.”

I think the answer will be a little more self evident if the quaestion is framed this way. Otherwise the questions and answers are circular and will remain so.
 
Laurie, we have continually pointed out that just because something is unnatural doesn’t mean it’s wrong. That is not the subject of this thread. With this statement you have agreed.

Your question should be, “why are certain unnatural human behaviours considered to be wrong under a Natural Law derived code of morality.”

I think the answer will be a little more self evident if the quaestion is framed this way. Otherwise the questions and answers are circular and will remain so.
Yes, and thank you.
It seems pointing out errors in someone’s thinking, unveiling circular thinking, is “wrong.”
 
Portrait:

An attribute of this nature will die has the nature itself is finite. The obedience to absolute laws will determine our destiny. (see Ecclesiastes)

Andy
 
Socrates would be proud of you because that is exactly the question he would have asked. Howevr I am sorry but I cannot giveyou an account of the basis of my morality. Nor can any philosopher so how I am supposed to manage it I do not know.
I wasn’t questioning your concept of morality, only morality as it is determined by Natural Law, since that is the topic of the thread. You reject the idea that Natural Law can prove homosexuality to be wrong but it appears that you reject the idea that the Natural Law can prove anything to be wrong. For example, can it be determined that murder is wrong? If we can’t agree that any proof exists it is useless to talk about morality as a meaningful subject.
So, going from the usual use of the concept of ‘wrong’, can you explain why an ‘unnatural act, as defined by you’ is also wrong.
Well, unless you can explain why any act is wrong I won’t have any criteria to use that you would accept. Given that we’re talking about the Natural Law, however, it would seem that if it means anything at all it would at least mean that unnatural choices would be wrong. If one doesn’t accept the Natural Law then unnaturalness isn’t a problem but this debate is about whether homosexuality is wrong based not on our personal conception of morality but on the dictates of the Natural Law.

Ender
 
Laurie, we have continually pointed out that just because something is unnatural doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
I am not convinced that this is so, but then it may be because we don’t share the same definition of “unnatural.” I don’t include in it the meanings of unique and unusual, nor does everything that is in fact unnatural mean that it is immoral as morality is tied to choices - we cannot behave immorally if we cannot choose. I am unwilling to cede the meaning that “unnatural = wrong” simply because there are immaterial cases where this isn’t so.
Your question should be, “why are certain unnatural human behaviours considered to be wrong under a Natural Law derived code of morality.”
If you phrase the question this way it isn’t clear that you can answer it to anyone’s satisfaction; it seems that you are now open to the charge that all choices are arbitrary. If you discard the criterion that that which is unnatural is contrary to Natural Law what are you left with? What criteria will you apply?

Ender
 
Laurie, we have continually pointed out that just because something is unnatural doesn’t mean it’s wrong. That is not the subject of this thread. With this statement you have agreed.

Your question should be, “why are certain unnatural human behaviours considered to be wrong under a Natural Law derived code of morality.”

I think the answer will be a little more self evident if the quaestion is framed this way. Otherwise the questions and answers are circular and will remain so.
To John and others;

Often I write out the problem in full and say something like;

Why, if something is unatural in the sense understood by the Catholic Church, is it also wrong?

You see I am well aware the term is used in a very particular sense by Natural Law morality. Many of my posts and Post 1 on the thread - ‘the unnaturalness of unnatural’ indicate this. Sometime I put unnatural in italics to make the point.

However sometimes I write ‘why does unnatural = wrong?’ which is shorthand and, as you point out, strictly inaccurate.

Hope that clears up the matter.

But the answer to the question, written accurately, is anything but obvious and I would very much like to hear this ‘obvious’ answer from you.

Good wishes

Laurie
 
Hello Ender,

I think I am reading the subject of this thread differently perhaps from you. No doubt I have not explained it very well. Allow me to try and state it for you [and anyone else] and maybe we can proceed from there?

1] Natural Law declares that anything which frustrates the purpose of a bodily part is ‘unnatural’ and therefore wrong.
2] Gay sex obviously does this and so is ‘unnatural’ in the sense defined.
3] Therefore Natural Law deduces that gay sex is wrong.

That much is certain and so the answer to the question at the head of this thread is ‘Yes’.

However what we are really debating is whether Natural Law Morality is correct.** In particular we are asking for a justification of the step from. 'This act is ‘unnatural’, to ‘this act is wrong’**. Of course I know that Natural Law morality makes this step but I am interested in how this is to be justified.

My views on morality is a side-show - we are debating the justification of this vital step in Natural Law reasoning. The Church thinks this move can be made plausible even to an honest non-believer and this is what I am asking be done.

Now that is how I read the topic under debate here. Do you think this is OK? If you do, can you do the justifying? If you do not - where am I mistaken above?

Best wishes and thanks,

Laurie
 
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