Can Homosexuality Be Proved Wrong From Natural Law

[Leela]

The following is from the Catholic Answers Library, the title is Gay Marriage: Special Report.

What about childless heterosexual couples? How does an infertile heterosexual marriage differ from a same-sex marriage?

One big difference is that the heterosexual couple enjoys sexual complementarity, and the fullness that brings into their relationship, even if they cannot have children.

Similarly, sex after menopause or when suffering from other forms of infertility do not divide the unitive from the procreative. The couple’s act is still ordered toward procreation; it is simply that procreation will not occur.

Hope this helps,
Ed

Is homosexual sex considered unitive but not ordered toward procreation, or is is neither one?

I still don’t understand the term “not ordered toward procreation” in contrast to the act of an infertile couple which knows what they are doing cannot end in procreation.

The issues here sound like the same objections that are made against use of birth control. However, homosexuality seems to be viewed as far more problematic and sinful than use of contraception. Why is that? Are their additional objections to homosexuality that could not be made against use of contraceptives?

 

[edwest2]

Is homosexual sex considered unitive but not ordered toward procreation, or is is neither one?

I still don’t understand the term “not ordered toward procreation” in contrast to the act of an infertile couple which knows what they are doing cannot end in procreation.

The issues here sound like the same objections that are made against use of birth control. However, homosexuality seems to be viewed as far more problematic and sinful than use of contraception. Why is that? Are their additional objections to homosexuality that could not be made against use of contraceptives?

Without bringing religious views into the subject, what is the natural function of human sexual organs? To produce children. This is their natural use. We, as human beings, are ordered toward procreation. Some choose not to exercise this function. They do not marry and avoid intercourse.

Homosexual acts sidestep procreation. They cannot produce children.

In the midst of a constant, and insistent media campaign to have sex as often as possible and with whoever, we, as a society, run a greater risk of spreading disease and denying each other what each of us really needs: love, which I will call true caring, and a commitment between two people to love, honor and cherish each other. In the past, both families were involved with the man and woman. In today’s promoted ‘hook up’ culture, sex becomes a plaything. Should the woman become pregnant, the man simply disappears, bearing none of the burden. Or if he remains, he can intimidate the woman into having or not having the child against her will.

A truly ordered relationship betwee a man and woman, today, means building up a friendship based on trust, spending time together, and leaning on the advice of parents, at least, to help avoid the pitfalls of being in love with a person that would not make a good husband or wife. And even if the woman (or man) is infertile, the man and woman are still in a relationship that bears out the natural use of their sexuality.

Finally, there is the issue of self control. We are told over and over on TV programs that we need to take the other person on a sexual test drive before marriage. Why? Only a fraction of the married couple’s time will involve sex. The rest of their lives will be about simply getting along with each other each day. Of solving problems together and being there for each other. The test drive is putting the cart before the horse and if the woman gets pregnant, then what?

Building relationships that lead to faithful commitment based on true caring is what people really need. That occasional hook up will not help you later on or can leave whenever he or she wants. True love - true caring - is worth it. It’s worth waiting for. It’s worth being sure about.

Evidence exists to show homosexuality was removed as a disorder from the DSM in 1973 for political, not scientific reasons. See this Special Report:

catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp

Artificial contraception was never approved by the Church. The Pill was hailed as the start of “freedom” but it was actually an excuse to separate sex from love. It was not 100% effective, and if used with a plaything outside of marriage who got pregnant, then what?

Personal responsibility and self control are the answer.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Abu]

The disorder of homosexual acts parallels the deliberate placing of a material or chemical barrier to the procreative act between male and female, or deliberate withdrawal to achieve pleasure without the procreative end.

The parallel is seen clearly in the death of Onan by God for contraception and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexual activity.
**
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on Oct-30-2003 (EWTN): **
A number of differences between natural family planning and contraception are worth noting.
First, the evil in contraception consists essentially in its deliberate rupture of the intimate link between the love-giving and life-giving meanings of the marital act. There is no such rupture in natural family planning. Moreover, anyone who attempts to morally justify contraception must face up to the logic of that attempt: the person must also accept the moral justification of homosexual activity, genital activity with anyone or anything, in vitro fertilization, and cloning.

Egoism motivates both homosexual activity and contraception, because the goal is not self-giving, but rather the immediate pleasure of self-satisfaction.

 

[Abu]

Facing Reality
Leela in post #617 writes: “If you were not aware of the frequently made arguments that there is something very “unnatural” about what Catholics require of their priests which caused the sex abuse scandal, then I daresay you don’t get out much”, and naively refers to “an article by former Catholic priest and still practicing Catholic James Carroll on the subject:
boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/05/16/celibacy_and_the_catholic_priest/?page=1”

This Leela-styled “still practicing Catholic” claims: “A special problem arises when, on the one hand, homosexuality is demonized as a matter of doctrine, while, on the other, the banishment of women leaves the priest living in a homophilic world.” Since this word means “obsessed with homosexuality” the Carrollian slant is to blame celibacy for sex abuse.

Deal Hudson in Crisis Magazine exposed James Carroll, columnist for the Boston Globe. Carroll, a self proclaimed Catholic, was ordained a priest in 1969 but left the priesthood in 1974 and married before his laicization, effectively excommunicating himself. His columns in the Globe confirm that he believes in contraception, abortion, and women’s ordination. Additionally, he rejects numerous fundamental Church teachings, such as the divinity of Jesus Christ. In a July 16 column, Carroll stated that at the VOTF [self-styled Voice of the Faithful] convention, “deeper questions must be confronted as well — the role of the laity in church governance, assumptions of sexual morality, the place of women, the pathologies of clericalism, the ‘creeping infallibility’ that corrupts church teaching.”

In view of this quagmire of dissent which also paints the condemnation of homosexual activity as “demonising homosexuality”, a total falsehood, readers can get the facts by Bill Donohue at:
newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/07/catholic_churchs_issue_is_homosexuality_not_pedophilia.html

These studies confirm that the link between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of minors in the general population is overwhelming; that the link between – priestly sexual abuse and homosexuality is overwhelming, and that no link has been found between celibacy and pedophilia.

The natural moral law proclaims the immorality of homosexual activity not of a person afflicted with the disorder.

 

[larkin31]

The disorder of homosexual acts parallels the deliberate placing of a material or chemical barrier to the procreative act between male and female, or deliberate withdrawal to achieve pleasure without the procreative end.

The parallel is seen clearly in the death of Onan by God for contraception and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexual activity.

The case of Onan is much debated among theologians. Your summary here discounts other interpretations.

 

[inocente]

These studies confirm that the link between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of minors in the general population is overwhelming; that the link between – priestly sexual abuse and homosexuality is overwhelming, and that no link has been found between celibacy and pedophilia.

I looked at your Bill Donohue article, which quotes Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, which led me to procon.org on the question “Is homosexuality a developmental disorder?”

All of those voting yes are Christians. In the two cases where it isn’t obvious, Fitzgibbons is on the Congregation for Clergy at the Vatican and Whitehead is an Anglican. Those saying no include the secular American Psychological Association, the American Academy of Family Physicians, and the National Association of Social Workers.

But rather than go with the opinions of majorities or authority figures, it would be nice to see the research that confirms a link between homosexuality and pedophilia or that refutes a link between celibacy and pedophilia. I googled around but couldn’t find any. Would you kindly post some links to the studies?

 

[vsedriver]

Tell that to Sarah and Abraham.

 

[Leela]

Tell that to Sarah and Abraham.

I think we have to regard that as a miracle. Don’t we?

 

[Abu]

inocente
Is homosexuality a developmental disorder?

Catholic Medical Association in Homosexuality and Hope, November 2000:
narth.com/docs/hope.html
This report counters the myth that same-sex attraction is genetically predetermined and unchangeable and offers hope for prevention and treatment.

**NOT BORN THAT WAY **
A number of researchers have sought to find a biological cause for same-sexual attraction. The media has promoted the idea that a “gay gene” has already been discovered (Burr 1996 3 ), but in spite of several attempts none of the much publicized studies (Hamer 1993 4 ; LeVay 1991 5 ) have been scientifically replicated. (Gadd 1998) A number of authors have carefully reviewed these studies and found that they not only do not prove a genetic basis for same-sex attraction, they do not even claim to have scientific evidence for such a claim. (Byne 1993 6 ; Crewdson 1995 7 ; Goldberg 1992; Horgan 1995 8 ; McGuire 1995 9 ; Porter 1996; Rice 1999 10

Researchers Peter Bearman and Hannah Brückner, from Columbia and Yale respectively, studied data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, and found even lower concordance rates of only 6.7% for male and 5.3% for female identical twins. In fact, their study neatly refuted several of the biological theories for the origin of homosexuality, finding social experiences in childhood to be far more significant

If it was not clear in the 1990’s, it certainly is now—no one is “born gay.”
[Peter S. Bearman and Hannah Brückner, “Opposite-Sex Twins and Adolescent Same-Sex Attraction,” American Journal of Sociology Vol. 107, No. 5, (March 2002), 1179-1205].
They are still unwilling to recognise the work done by Fr Harvey, Dr Satinover and Dr Spitzer in healing the disorder. It is reminiscent of the climate change hype in which many were gored by a bull.

Of the Spitzer research, psychologist Dr. Scott Hershberger (who is a philosophical essentialist on questions of sexual orientation) conducted a Guttman analysis of the study sample, and declared:
“The orderly, law-like pattern of changes in homosexual behavior, homosexual self-identification, and homosexual attraction and fantasy observed in Spitzer’s study is strong evidence that reparative therapy can assist individuals in changing their homosexual orientation to a heterosexual one.”
This healing has been confirmed by Dr Satinover among others, and the American Psychological Association in 2008 had to backtrack on its 1998 statement that heredity played a “significant role in homosexuality. In 2008 it stated that “There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles…”
narth.com/docs/deemphasizes.html
The reparative therapy has been a God-send to those so afflicted and many are doing a great work of real love. There is no one who can replace the natural moral law.

Toronto, August 10, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Dr. Stanton Jones and his research partner, Dr. Mark Yarhouse, were given the opportunity, on Sunday morning at 8:00 a.m., to present their findings on a study of sexual reorientation therapy, at the annual convention of the American Psychological Association (APA) in Toronto.

The six year study concluded that there is evidence that homosexual tendencies can be controlled and redirected toward normal sexual attraction.
[usa-lifesitenews-com-monday-august-10-2009-new-study-measures-benefits-of-more-involved-fathers/]

 

[larkin31]

Catholic Medical Association in Homosexuality and Hope, November 2000:
narth.com/docs/hope.html
This report counters the myth that same-sex attraction is genetically predetermined and unchangeable …

Nobody claims this as the entire picture. This is a false summary of what educated people (in the field) claim, so I don’t know why you use it to begin a counter point. It is a bit of a straw man.

 

[Abu]

inocente
it would be nice to see the research that confirms a link between homosexuality and pedophilia or that refutes a link between celibacy and pedophilia.

Expert agrees that pedophilia is linked to homosexuality
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=19414
**Santiago, Chile, April 22, 2010 (CNA) **- The newspaper, El Diaro de Chile, published an article last week by Spanish psychologist Jose Maria Amenos Vidal titled, “Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone and the scientific evidence that supports the relationship between homosexuality and pedophilia.” The author asserts that the cardinal was correct in affirming such a link during his visit to Chile.
Since 1984, Vidal has been a professor of Philosophy and Educational Science at the Central University of Barcelona, Spain, where he is also Director of Seminars in the Departments of General and Social Psychology. In his article, Vidal recalls that the renowned Spanish doctor and psychiatrist, Aquilino Polaino, an expert in the field, previously pointed out that homosexuality should be considered a mental disease, and must be addressed with psychiatric treatment, under the guidance of the model set forth by Gerard J.M. van den Aardweg.
Aardweg is the Dutch professor and psychologist who years ago, “deciphered the keys to this illness and its treatment.” His model directly clashes with those of Sigmund Freud and Alfred Adler, Vidal said, “because orthodox and heterodox psychoanalysts have defended the unscientific position that homosexuality is the result of hereditary factors.” He noted that “this hypothesis has been completely ruled out today because of its incongruence with the results of scientific research.”
He added that one can conclude that the “social environment is indeed (homosexuality’s) main trigger.” From this point of view, Vidal continued, “The recent statements by the Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, during his recent trip to Chile support the scientific evidence derived from statistical co-relational studies between homosexuality and pedophilia.”

Vidal said these studies show that homosexuality is not the result of genetic inheritance or of evolutionism in relation to pedophilia and that it is not disconnected from environmental influence.

From Philip Jenkins, Distinguished Professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State. His book *Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis *was published by Oxford University Press in 1996.

“Pedophilia” is a psychiatric term meaning sexual interest in children below the age of puberty.

“But the vast majority of clergy misconduct cases are nothing like this. The vast majority of instances involve priests who have been sexually active with a person below the age of sexual consent, often 16 or 17 years old, or even older."
post-gazette.com/forum/comm/20020303edjenk03p6.asp

 

[larkin31]

Abu, do you address the replies to you that come with questions?

 

[Abu]

larkin31
It is a bit of a straw man

You wish!

Facing Reality
narth.com/docs/yetanother.html
Yet Another Attempt To Discredit The Spitzer Study Fails
by Daniel E. Byrne, Ph.D.
“….the science of homosexuality is different from the politics of homosexuality. The former only progresses by asking questions, not by avoiding questions whose answers might not fit a political agenda. The politics of homosexuality addresses the rights of gays and lesbians and what society is willing to give. However, even the support of these rights does not require allegiance to the false belief that homosexuality is invariably fixed in all people. It is not.”

inocente,
Here are useful articles: narth.com/menus/cstudies.html

 

[larkin31]

Abu, do you address the replies to you that come with questions?

Abu?

 

[Abu]

larkin31
The case of Onan is much debated among theologians

Faithful Catholics assent to doctrine. Some theologians, like some laity, are dissenters. Violation of the Levirate law was not a capital offence. [catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp]](http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp])

The infallible doctrine against contraception refers to the death of Onan for contraception (Casti Connubii, Pius XI, 1930):
54. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.

1. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.”

The parallel is seen clearly in the death of Onan by God for contraception and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexual activity. Do you have a question?

 

[inocente]

Abu, thanks for the various links. Given NARTH’s mission statement, much of their quoted research is aimed at trying to show that homosexuality is a treatable condition. I didn’t find any of it particularly convincing from that angle, although I’ll admit that it’s hard to remove bias (in the scientific sense) in research being conducted within a society that displays negative attitudes to homosexuality.

These studies confirm that the link between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of minors in the general population is overwhelming; that the link between – priestly sexual abuse and homosexuality is overwhelming, and that no link has been found between celibacy and pedophilia.

I didn’t see any papers supporting that. Thinking about it, if your first claim was right then we would surely all have heard about it – that would really big news. On the other two claims, all the articles you quoted seem to come back to the John Jay report into sexual abuse by priests (commissioned by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops), but it doesn’t appear to support either of them.

 

[larkin31]

Faithful Catholics assent to doctrine. Some theologians, like some laity, are dissenters. Violation of the Levirate law was not a capital offence. [catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp]](http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9107chap.asp])

The infallible doctrine against contraception refers to the death of Onan for contraception (Casti Connubii, Pius XI, 1930):
54. But no reason, however grave, may be put forward by which anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious.

1. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, “Intercourse even with one’s legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it.”

The parallel is seen clearly in the death of Onan by God for contraception and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah because of homosexual activity. Do you have a question?

Do you believe that both the Onan and the Sodom and Gomorrah events literally occurred as described?

 

[larkin31]

…These studies confirm that the link between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of minors in the general population is overwhelming;

“Links,” by definition, are vague and indeterminate, and certainly are not “overwhelming.” Would you care to describe what you mean by "link’?

And neither of these pieces is a “study.” They are opinion columns. The second one bases itself on a 1930 self-reporting survey and only asks gay men (apparently, there is no discussion of methodology here, since it is not a “study”).

Homosexual women are not reported on (homosexuality does occur in the female gender: it is commonly called lesbianism).

Nor are abuse rates from, say, parents, relatives, acquaintances, neighbors–those who dominate the rolls of child-abusers.

This is the old “per-capita” argument meant only to smear gays. I could as easily say that more “Steves” abuse children than “Bobs.” Watch out for those “Bobs”!

 

[Leela]

I think we have to regard that as a miracle. Don’t we?

Yeah, and if we allow miracles into the discussion, it is just as possible for God to miraculously enable a homosexual couple to conceive as it was for God to enable Sara and Abraham to conceive. So homosexuals are no more or less able to procreate than the elderly. I don’t see how homosexual sex is any less “procreative” than sex among the elderly heterosexual couples who like homosexuals will not create life without some divine intervention.

 

[larkin31]

“Links,” by definition, are vague and indeterminate, and certainly are not “overwhelming.” Would you care to describe what you mean by "link’?

And neither of these pieces is a “study.” They are opinion columns. The second one bases itself on a 1930 self-reporting survey and only asks gay men (apparently, there is no discussion of methodology here, since it is not a “study”).

Homosexual women are not reported on (homosexuality does occur in the female gender: it is commonly called lesbianism).

Nor are abuse rates from, say, parents, relatives, acquaintances, neighbors–those who dominate the rolls of child-abusers.

This is the old “per-capita” argument meant only to smear gays. I could as easily say that more “Steves” abuse children than “Bobs.” Watch out for those “Steves”!