Can Homosexuality Be Proved Wrong From Natural Law

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larkin

*kids in classes have gay parents. what’s the beef? What is wrong with a gay storybook? There are gays in many many works of literature, and there are and have been many gay writers. *

But surely you get the point. There is a gay agenda to force their values on children through the schools, with or without parental consent.
I am a teacher. This is false.
Can you imagine forcing the children in public schools to read anti-gay literature with or without parental consent? So shouldn’t that be a two-way street,
I teach literature, and give students very little choice. This is the way it usually is.
or do you want the gays to have it all their way?
This is an uncharitable, reactionary response.
What is wrong with a gay storybook?*
What you are really asking is: “What is wrong with a pro-gay storybook?”
There is nothing wrong with depicting gays positively. Again, what is wrong with telling a story that depicts happy gays together?
Then what’s wrong with an anti-gay storybook?
Nothing. These stories are told,too, and I have taught them.
Either tolerate both or do not tolerate either!
No. You don’t understand the selection process for school literature. There is no rule like this. One need not introduce to children (elementary school) a “pro” slavery document and an “anti” slavery document. One need not combine an atheist tract with every reference to Santa or the Tooth Fairy.
 
The truth is worth defending. When something like the gay lifestyle is promoted to children by force, by the State, the people will reject this.

massresistance.org/docs/issues/king_and_king/

The Church isn’t telling people what to do by force but it offers its wisdom and observation for the benefit of all.

God bless,
Ed
That gays can live happily together and raise children (and do so more frequently now) is a “truth” also.

No?
 
Larkin

*That gays can live happily together and raise children (and do so more frequently now) is a “truth” also. *

So it is your business as a school teacher to promote the gay life style? Give me a break.

I was a teacher for 33 plus years, so don’t try to pull rank on me! 👍

Where morals are concerned, no public school has the right to force a moral viewpoint on children. That is the atheist/gay agenda … to corrupt the young.
 
Where morals are concerned, no public school has the right to force a moral viewpoint on children. That is the atheist/gay agenda … to corrupt the young.
If I tell my students that I believe slavery is wrong, is that not “forcing” a moral view upon them? If I require my students to treat the teacher and one another with respect, is that not “forcing” moral view upon them? I have no problem at all with opposing bigotry in the classroom.

If you weren’t teaching values in you 33 years of teaching, I can’t imagine what you were doing.
 
Correction. Please refer to post #761 for the facts.

Leela has continued to wallow in confusion, totally unable to answer post #761 which demolishes the puerile arguments equating race discrimination with the fact of the homosexual disorder, and the true rights which all mankind deserve.
Again, if there is anything specific that you would like me to respond to please let me know.
 
Leela

*If I tell my students that I believe slavery is wrong, is that not “forcing” a moral view upon them? If I require my students to treat the teacher and one another with respect, is that not “forcing” moral view upon them? I have no problem at all with opposing bigotry in the classroom.

If you weren’t teaching values in you 33 years of teaching, I can’t imagine what you were doing. *

When I was teaching values, I was teaching values that everyone already agreed upon. Everybody agrees that slavery is wrong. Everybody agrees that you cannot teach without respect for the teacher.

Gay marriage is no such value. It is directly opposed to Catholic teaching! Surely as long as you have been in this forum that has been made clear to you. :rolleyes:
 
Leela

*If I tell my students that I believe slavery is wrong, is that not “forcing” a moral view upon them? If I require my students to treat the teacher and one another with respect, is that not “forcing” moral view upon them? I have no problem at all with opposing bigotry in the classroom.

If you weren’t teaching values in you 33 years of teaching, I can’t imagine what you were doing. *

When I was teaching values, I was teaching values that everyone already agreed upon. Everybody agrees that slavery is wrong. Everybody agrees that you cannot teach without respect for the teacher.

Gay marriage is no such value. It is directly opposed to Catholic teaching! Surely as long as you have been in this forum that has been made clear to you. :rolleyes:
I think that this is a better way of putting the matter It isn’t that we ought not teach values but that we ought only explicitly promote values that are fairly well-settled matters with the community. But that is why children’s stories featuring homosexual couples are told to students in some public schools in Massachusetts in areas where opposition of bigotry toward homosexuals is a settled matter while not in other regions where it is a far more controversial topic.
 
*But that is why children’s stories featuring homosexual couples are told to students in some public schools in Massachusetts in areas where opposition of bigotry toward homosexuals is a settled matter while not in other regions where it is a far more controversial topic. *

It should not be taught in any area of Massachusetts because Massachusetts has lots of Catholics. Being a Catholic and opposing homosexuality, and especially homosexual marriage, is not equal to bigotry. 🙂
 
It should not be taught in any area of Massachusetts because Massachusetts has lots of Catholics. Being a Catholic and opposing homosexuality, and especially homosexual marriage, is not equal to bigotry. :)🙂

I agree wholeheartedly! There are strong pressure groups who wish to push their own agenda and the education system is the battle ground. The Church should be stronger in its true teaching. That is the case here in Ireland. Instead of a dissemination of true teaching, we get mired in(as an earlier correspondent noted) arguments which reek of moral relativism.
Hate the sin, Love the sinner. The Church here do not seem to start from this sound precept anymore.
I remain your seeking friend,
Colmcille1.🙂
 
I think that this is a better way of putting the matter It isn’t that we ought not teach values but that we ought only explicitly promote values that are fairly well-settled matters with the community. But that is why children’s stories featuring homosexual couples are told to students in some public schools in Massachusetts in areas where opposition of bigotry toward homosexuals is a settled matter while not in other regions where it is a far more controversial topic.
What is not a settled matter is the State forcing children who are not mentally or emotionally mature to read a gay storybook and over the objection of their parents, as in Massachusetts. Passing a law does not mean everybody agrees. Passing a law does not create a reason to put gay books into libraries and create other related laws. Such things are done by human beings, and there are those who disagree. Early on, gay marriage supporters dismissed claims that legalizing it would affect others. The State is forcing normalization at all levels, including grade school. This is called social engineering.

God bless,
Ed
 
colmcille1

Welcome to CA. A new voice in the wilderness of ideas! 👍
 
ed

The State is forcing normalization at all levels, including grade school. This is called social engineering.

Yes, and some would ironically call it “ethical cleansing.” :mad:
 
It should not be taught in any area of Massachusetts because Massachusetts has lots of Catholics.
I think you are probably wrong to take it for granted that Catholics in Mass. oppose homosexuality. The notion of reading a story that features homosexual characters is not so controversial in Mass which has a very progressive outlook.
Being a Catholic and opposing homosexuality, and especially homosexual marriage, is not equal to bigotry. 🙂
People who hold irrational prejudices generally don’t see their bigotry as irrational, so it isn’t surprising to me that you don’t see yourself as bigoted in this regard. Every member of the KKK thinks they have good reasons for being white supremacists. Like you, they think their fears are justified. Like them, you are wrong to be afraid.
 
People who hold irrational prejudices generally don’t see their bigotry as irrational, so it isn’t surprising to me that you don’t see yourself as bigoted in this regard. Every member of the KKK thinks they have good reasons for being white supremacists. Like you, they think their fears are justified. Like them, you are wrong to be afraid.
I suppose I am being prejudiced for thinking that a sexual attraction to animals or small children is a disorder of what we are.

Your arguments are fallacious. You assume with out justification that white supremacists had good rational reasons for being racist. You are being deceptive.
 
I suppose I am being prejudiced for thinking that a sexual attraction to animals or small children is a disorder of what we are.

I think that there are some big problems there but saying that they are unnatural gets us nowhere. What is a strange leap for me is the idea that “improper use” is equated with immorality. If all my glasses are in the dishwasher and I use a coffee mug for my orange juice we would just say that I am making the best of the situation or being resourceful. No one would say that my use of a coffee mug for something that it was not designed for was immoral. That’s why I don’t buy the idea that Natural Law theory convinces anyone of anything they don’t already believe. Is there anyone in the world that wasn’t sure whether or not homosexuality was moral and was swayed by an “improper use” argument? If so, would they get bent out of shape to learn that I once pulled a McGyver and successfully drove a nail with a wrench when I had no hammer available? (Boy, that McGyver was one heck of a flouter of Natural Law, wasn’t he?)
MindOverMatter2;6905537:
Your arguments are fallacious. You assume with out justification that white supremacists had good rational reasons for being racist. You are being deceptive.
No, I’m saying that, like you, white supremacists think that they have good arguments. I don’t think that their beliefs or yours are true. At the same time, they and you may be justified *in believing *what you do since justification is a context dependent practice. I assume that you are a rational person who has just had different experiences than I’ve had or I wouldn’t bother talking to you.

Best,
Leela
 
Leela

I think you are probably wrong to take it for granted that Catholics in Mass. oppose homosexuality.

And I think you are wrong to take it for granted that Catholics in Mass. do not oppose homosexuality. I lived in Mass. for over 40 years of my life. Where do you live? 😃

Your inference that anyone who opposes homosexuality on moral grounds is bigoted is itself a form of bigotry. A member of the KKK might be a bigot because he does not offer rational grounds for opposing integration. But Catholics can offer rational grounds for opposing homosexual marriage.

For starters, it’s never been tolerated in the history of the world because it’s insane! We are living in the first society to tolerate it anywhere, a pretty good sign, among many others, that our own civilization has gone berserk. :eek:
 
Charlemagne II
We are living in the first society to tolerate it anywhere, a pretty good sign, among many others, that our own civilization has gone berserk.
So true!

The problem today is that many think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices (William James), fail to recognise a Creator who has given us the natural moral law with the human nature, despite St Paul’s emphasis on this, but deceive themselves into feeling (can’t call it thinking) that they can make up their own moral law – aptly described as selfism by convert psychologist Dr Paul Vitz in Psychology As Religion, Eerdmans, 1994.
 
Change, for some, has become a form of worship – an idol. In reality, it is just an attempt to escape boredom for some, and/or a chance to play (small g) god. “You can’t tell me what to do!” Fine. But don’t ask us to make gay marriage legal. Don’t put it on the ballot.

God bless,
Ed
 
I think that there are some big problems there but saying that they are unnatural gets us nowhere. What is a strange leap for me is the idea that “improper use” is equated with immorality.

If all my glasses are in the dishwasher and I use a coffee mug for my orange juice we would just say that I am making the best of the situation or being resourceful. No one would say that my use of a coffee mug for something that it was not designed for was immoral.
This is just another straw-man:yawn:. The word “mug” has no objective meaning. We invented the meaning and applied it to an object; but the object itself does not have to have that meaning. Sexuality has objective meaning. We have not invented it.** We have encountered it**. We have no choice but to accept it for what is; and to choose otherwise is to be in denial of what sexuality is. Sexuality is primarily an objective biological expression. We have sexual desires because of our genetic biological expression, without which sexuality would be meaningless and unintelligible. In human beings, sexuality biologically expresses itself as male and female. The biological expression of human nature, minus some kind of disorder, is evidently heterosexual in nature and functions to that specific end. When people develop sexual desires for the same sex, this is a disorder of what we are biologically and thus sexually. I ought to value who you are, and I ought to wish you free from any disorder that undermines who you are. Being male or female is the natural end of who you are. If I wish somebody the greatest moral good, this includes everything they are, which includes the fact that they are male or female. Thus I ought to wish them the fulfilment of the fact of their being male or female. Heterosexuality fulfils the natural end of there being male and female. Homosexuality does not.

Homosexuality is accepted because of the idea that it represents somebodies true sexual identity, merely because somebody experiences an attraction. But attraction is not what defines objective sexual identity. Homosexuality is no more a true sexual identity any more than having a sexual attraction to animals or children is a true sexual identity. No rational person would say that its somebodies sexual identity to have sex with trees on the basis that he or she has an attraction to trees. Its a disordered attraction that has developed over time. This attraction does not fall in line with the proper end to which his or her biological expression is in act; a sexual relationship between a male and a female.
No, I’m saying that, like you, white supremacists think that they have good arguments. I don’t think that their beliefs or yours are true.
People cannot sufficiently defend homosexuality, thus they have now resorted to emotional blackmail. By comparing the plight of homosexual persons with the horrors of racism and slavery, they achieve their agenda by trying to make the question of homosexuality a forbidden question; in the sense that one is not allowed to question homosexuality (let alone debate it) under pain of being a prejudice bigot. However; calling somebody a bigot is irrational if it has no objective moral truth to it. It amounts to nothing more than emotional blackmail. It is not a reasonable refutation of my argument and is very little more than childish name calling.

But in any case, your argument is a false argument. You are saying that because white supremacists believe they are correct that therefore Catholics are necessarily incorrect in their moral inferences and are thus necessarily bigots and supremacists that should not be taken seriously. Thus we should only believe what atheists believe to be moral. Its a false comparison since it does not show us that any of the arguments against homosexuality is false. But lets face it, this is how homosexuality survives as a public mode of expression, by making false comparisons between racism and the suppression of homosexuality. By doing so, they create the illusions that homosexuals are an oppressed people. It is just a device to scare people in to thinking that they are being prejudiced by falsely coupling them with white supremacists without justification. The fact is nobody has any good reason to be racists once one understands the proper grounds of objective moral truth; and the idea that because people make mistakes when reasoning out the right and wrongs of things, that we should therefore reject moral inferences and accept homosexuality, is quite simply ridiculous.

In reality you use natural law all the time. When one believes that human nature ought to be valued, you are saying that the proper end of human nature is as such that it ought to be valued. We have good reason to doubt the legitimacy of homosexual acts because it is a disorder of the intrinsic purpose made evident in the fact of our being male and female, just as much as having a sexual attraction to an animal is a disorder of the fact that we are human. If our being male and female and human is intrinsically valuable, we ought not to stoop so low as to act in a manner that undermines the value of what we are.
 
Just a note on the “coffee cup” analogy.

A misunderstanding about natural law is its highly relative nature. Natural law deals with the good of the individual or group, in terms of its designed purpose, and whether it tends toward that purpose.

For example, the purpose of a bacterium is to replicate. Its replication is its good, and actions that help its replication are good actions for the bacterium, regardless of the consequences to other species. Survival is a good for the human animal, and preserving that good may involve destroying bacteria.

When we talk about inanimate objects, or organisms with vegetative or animal souls, we just talk about “the good” in terms of fulfilling purposes. Failure to achieve such a good, relative to the organism or object, is at most a physical evil.

It takes a rational or spiritual soul (more specifically, intellect and will) in order for the good (and what interferes with that good) to have a moral, not just a physical, quality to it.
 
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