Can Homosexuality Be Proved Wrong From Natural Law

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Dear Leela,

Cordial greetings. Please pardon me for butting in here, but I feel that I must respond to what you have said above.

By way of reply let me say that the Christian is called to not only comfort the afflicted but also to afflict the comfortable, and most certainly the erring and sinful. Of course he must do so in such manner so as to ensure that Christian charity is not violated. Neverttheless, he must call a spade a spade when it comes to moral absolutes and sin and resist the temptation to be some boneless nerveless jelly fish that is ever ready to trim his sails to whatever is the popular opinion of the day on any given matter.

The “better religion” of which you speak is to be found in an honest denunciation of sin and not in a feeble tergiversating that cannot bring itself to speak plainly and sometimes even very bluntly about sin. The latter sort of wishy-washy religion will never really be respected by the masses and will do very little to impact the post-Christian Western world in which the Church now finds itself.

Just a personal footnote, my wife and I converted to the Catholic Church after being Anglicans (Church of England) for many years, for among other reasons, because Rome did not give an uncertain sound on the trumpet when it came to key issues of morality, including this whole homosexuality issue which is currently under review in this thread. After breathing in an atmosphere of moral relativism and doctrinal and moral chaos, the clear and unequivocal teaching of Rome on faith and morals was a very welcome and refreshing change. The alternative to this was a subjective quagmire of competing opinions where every man does that which is right in his own eyes and where the only sin is the sin of intolerance of differing viewpoints. In the eyes of most thinking people this is not only risible but very pitiful, since a church is supposed to know with certainty what are its doctrinal and moral limits and its non-negotiable truths.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
Hi Portrait,

It sounds to me like you have not avoided the moral and doctrinal relativism of which you accuse others though I am not completely sure that I understand what you mean by the phenomenon. Perhaps you can clarify. According to the above you chose to jump ship and join a religion that is consistent with your personal beliefs rather than alter your beliefs to submit to the authority of the church you previously identified with. Is that not an example of the exact same phenomenon you condemn?

Best,
Leela
 
Proceeding in reverse on the posting time line:

@ Larkin31 Thank you for introducing a trigger that allows what for me is an important perspective for conversing on this topic in a circle that includes those not of our Faith or even of non-faith. That perspective is as follows: People of faith in the Christian tradition, as well as many in other traditions, view the world as assembled through the lens of their particular Scriptures. So whether we are reading our favorite translation of the Bible, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Tao te Ching or whatever, as believers we are reading from within that scripture through the lens of faith. In our Faith, that means we assume, before any reading, that “the” Bible, our Bible, is the inspired word of God.

That assumption, as a phenomenon, especially to someone who has no stake in the matter, is not different from the similar kind of reading someone of another faith might have in the reading of their own Scriptures. So for non-believers, which may be defined as anyone not believing a particular tradition, that Scripture is viewed from the outside, and not as an object of faith. That would mean us looking at the Koran, or a Zen Buddhist looking at the Bible, or an atheist looking at any Scripture, etc.

So when you and I say “Natural Law” we mean it strictly from our Catholic perspective and do our apologetics from that standpoint. And in the case of this thread we have a narrow scope of consideration in that the OP is positing a potential contradiction in Scripture, at least to the extent that that passage is being questioned as to its applicability from the OT Jewish tradition to NT goyems.

I’m guessing that for most of our Faith on here it is of no interest what non Catholics have to say in this matter. I’m interested in it as an abstract exercise as a point of communication and understanding. I’m basing that interest on the assumption that we all came from the same place and therefore need to be able to talk about these things in a way that precedes or choice or habit of faith. And yes, I understand that for anyone who is a believer in their particular faith, mostly our Catholic faith on here, this may not be a tenable position. But then how do we talk with non Catholics? What points of agreement might we have that are neutral and common? I can think of one, at least, but it is of a nature that it would be counterproductive to name specifically.

Even then, say if we are dealing with this question within our Faith, there are many factors that tend to be ignored. Those are relevant to the text and are exemplified by the nature, say, or Paul’s writings themselves. We all know now that there has been doubt cast on the authorship of nearly half of Paul’s epistles to one degree or another. And we also know that the reason those books could originally be attributed to Paul is that it was common practice at his time to author something in the manner or intent of someone else and attribute the writing to that individual for reasons of acceptance and authority. Today we would consider that type of thing forgery, deception, or misleading at best.

That is all to say that things were moral or immoral at the times of those writings through a lens that we no longer use. And given that that happens, perhaps the interpretations we put on things today are not accurate in kind and degree to the extent we might believe they are. I might add to this that what we “know” as laity in our Faith, may not be exactly congruent with what is known by scholars outside or even inside our own Church. That is to say that though the Church is unchanged in Essence, there are yet changes in form. And sometimes we might confuse the two.

What I’m trying to say is that while the OP is dealing with a line of inquiry that has a bearing on homosexuality from our Faith perspective, there is along with that a broader question of a similar nature for all concerned. We Catholics as such do not live in a vacuum. There has to be a way of communication that admits at least of understanding another’s perspective. That way would have to include some agreement on what “natural law” is, and how the interpretation of that is borne on by different faiths or philosophies.
It is a difficult enough intramural question, but since we are including the race as a whole in the outcome, there might be a different more inclusive way of doing that than saying “We’re right; live with it.” Such might be acceptable and admirable within or Faith, but not necessarily to other faiths and philosophies. But I guess we have to decide in part as to whether we wish to bring everyone with us on our way, or just inform them of our conclusions and leave them at that.
 
When the Church publishes its thoughts it does not exclude all men of good will. It proposes, not imposes. Forcing the faith on others is forbidden as said by Pope John Paul II.

The key issue is truth. The fact is: all people have a belief system. Regardless of what label they give it, it is a belief system. This can run from pure rationalists who observe, draw conclusions and act on them to ultra-orthodox religious who follow every tiny detail. Among the rationalists, there is a small spectrum of tolerance for other belief systems. It appears orthodox religious people are the most irritating to them since we rely on divine revelation as truth - another form of reason.

Next is the will. There are those who claim sole ownership of their will. There are those who believe doing the will of God is better since God Himself told us that is true.

For various reasons, those who prefer to own their own will are irritated by various actions of various religious groups. For example, Muslims, Christians and Jews are against homosexual acts. This does not just flow from divine revelation but the obvious biological compatibility of the male and female as opposed to the obvious biological incompatibility of same sex partners.

According to the Catholic Medical Association, homosexual persons are not born that way. According to the New York Times, a number of homosexuals don’t even have monogomous commitments with their primary partner.

In Massachussets, right now, the State is involved in a homosexual indoctrination program to normalize homosexuality and homosexual behavior starting with little kids who are not yet intellectually or emotionally mature enough to really grasp such a concept. There is nothing wrong about teaching kids to not belittle or harm homosexual persons.

It appears that the goal is to raise a generation of individuals who will view homosexual behavior as normal. The problem is this: instead of entering into a marriage type relationship, living next door as your neighbors and all of us just getting on with our lives, homosexuals are getting the State involved in an all ages indoctrination program.

What? People in an all Irish part of town get their first Mexican family and the grade schools are flooded with Mexican lifestyle books, they are required to march in the Mexican parade and participate in Mexican Pride day?

Homosexual persons, right now, can enter into any living arrangement they want, but they are insisting it must be nothing less than marriage and they are using the machinery of the State to indoctrinate people, especially the young, to ensure that their marriages are recognized not just legally but as a legitimate human relationship exactly equal to heterosexual marriage.

The truth is always worth defending. This is no time to have opinions but a time to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God bless,
Ed
 
When the Church publishes its thoughts it does not exclude all men of good will. It proposes, not imposes. Forcing the faith on others is forbidden as said by Pope John Paul II.

The key issue is truth. The fact is: all people have a belief system. Regardless of what label they give it, it is a belief system. This can run from pure rationalists who observe, draw conclusions and act on them to ultra-orthodox religious who follow every tiny detail. Among the rationalists, there is a small spectrum of tolerance for other belief systems. It appears orthodox religious people are the most irritating to them since we rely on divine revelation as truth - another form of reason.

Next is the will. There are those who claim sole ownership of their will. There are those who believe doing the will of God is better since God Himself told us that is true.

For various reasons, those who prefer to own their own will are irritated by various actions of various religious groups. For example, Muslims, Christians and Jews are against homosexual acts. This does not just flow from divine revelation but the obvious biological compatibility of the male and female as opposed to the obvious biological incompatibility of same sex partners.

According to the Catholic Medical Association, homosexual persons are not born that way. According to the New York Times, a number of homosexuals don’t even have monogomous commitments with their primary partner.

In Massachussets, right now, the State is involved in a homosexual indoctrination program to normalize homosexuality and homosexual behavior starting with little kids who are not yet intellectually or emotionally mature enough to really grasp such a concept. There is nothing wrong about teaching kids to not belittle or harm homosexual persons.

It appears that the goal is to raise a generation of individuals who will view homosexual behavior as normal. The problem is this: instead of entering into a marriage type relationship, living next door as your neighbors and all of us just getting on with our lives, homosexuals are getting the State involved in an all ages indoctrination program.

What? People in an all Irish part of town get their first Mexican family and the grade schools are flooded with Mexican lifestyle books, they are required to march in the Mexican parade and participate in Mexican Pride day?

Homosexual persons, right now, can enter into any living arrangement they want, but they are insisting it must be nothing less than marriage and they are using the machinery of the State to indoctrinate people, especially the young, to ensure that their marriages are recognized not just legally but as a legitimate human relationship exactly equal to heterosexual marriage.

The truth is always worth defending. This is no time to have opinions but a time to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God bless,
Ed
What is your problem with gays?
 
Proceeding in reverse on the posting time line:

@ Larkin31 Thank you for introducing a trigger that allows what for me is an important perspective for conversing on this topic in a circle that includes those not of our Faith or even of non-faith. That perspective is as follows: People of faith in the Christian tradition, as well as many in other traditions, view the world as assembled through the lens of their particular Scriptures. So whether we are reading our favorite translation of the Bible, the Guru Granth Sahib, the Tao te Ching or whatever, as believers we are reading from within that scripture through the lens of faith. In our Faith, that means we assume, before any reading, that “the” Bible, our Bible, is the inspired word of God.

That assumption, as a phenomenon, especially to someone who has no stake in the matter, is not different from the similar kind of reading someone of another faith might have in the reading of their own Scriptures. So for non-believers, which may be defined as anyone not believing a particular tradition, that Scripture is viewed from the outside, and not as an object of faith. That would mean us looking at the Koran, or a Zen Buddhist looking at the Bible, or an atheist looking at any Scripture, etc.

So when you and I say “Natural Law” we mean it strictly from our Catholic perspective and do our apologetics from that standpoint. And in the case of this thread we have a narrow scope of consideration in that the OP is positing a potential contradiction in Scripture, at least to the extent that that passage is being questioned as to its applicability from the OT Jewish tradition to NT goyems…
Thank you. I agree with you entirely, and have summed it up this way: “Catholics believe that homosexuality is wrong (ie against “Natural Law”) because their religious text states that it is wrong.” I fully understand this position. I simply call it a weak rhetorical position.
 
Being rather secure in my own views, I see that in the case of religion as a phenomenon There is a great portion of belief that is in the category of “Because I said so.” It is kind of post hoc ergo proper hoc. That is why I have a concern about habitual faith, while having no illusion about the fact that as a race we are believers. The question is always “believers in and of what?”

Given the parameters of physical existence, we operate in a very narrow spectral range and are oriented early on to a perspective that we question to some degree or other. But it usually takes a shock to put us in a different position of evaluation than what we usually live by. So automatically the great majority of folks are all at odds to some kind and degree just because they were no all born on Mulberry Street in Flatland, Anywhere. So we kind of play with the cards we are dealt, and because of the nature of the mind, we have to believe that we are right, or go bonkers.

There are very few who can receive a shock and go into a place that is belief neutral. There are fewer still who can get to that state on their own. Sometimes we call these Saints or Sages if their outcome is in the direction of Unity with a higher Ideal, or we call them monsters if they break and perpetrate evil on their fellows. I distinguish the difference by the idea of egoism based on fear, greed, and a need to control the outside world as person “above” others, as distinct from Love, charity, and a desire to elevate the outside world as a participant “with” others.

One has to ask, if left to one’s own devices–ie not having a particular religion, and having heterosexual orientation, what would be our reaction/response to encountering another orientation? And if our reaction is revulsion, then is it attributable to an inherent morality, or to the natural xenophobia that most of us hide well until in a situation that outs it? And what of the reciprocal revulsion another orientation might have for ours? I used to think there were two: hetero- and homo- sexuals, but find this b/w distinct on too simplistic, if for no other reason than that it leaves out about one per cent of the population who are hermaphroditic. Since I have come to conclude that without that one per cent, the rest is still divided into roughly 12 categories, 6 each ascribed to the tow genders. So it is not so simple if you look below the superficial and consider a bigger picture. Even with four choices, would there not be a continuum? And if so, who is going to cast the first…I mean decide what’s acceptable. And who, moreover, would do that in the name of God?

Interpreting a Bible text is one thing. Applying it as law, as we find even in civil courts, is another. For my part it is too easy to have black and white dictums that apply universally. I say this because one of the major themes of Creation is uniqueness. even among things operantly identical. How does a penguin distinguish its mate from among tens of thousands in their rookery? And what about finger prints? Those are simplistic examples, but given the phenomenal diversity in just those two, why would there not be a phenomenal diversity in the natural tendency of psyches?

I know that apart from condemning the homosexual act, usually understood to be among men, it does not condemn homosexual tendencies as such but compares it to alcoholism, maintaining that it is an acquired trait. Nevertheless, the “because I said so” tendency of belief seems to have the upper hand in this matter, because the studies appear to be inconclusive. And we have to remember that we assess our world through the filters we choose, habituate, or normalize to. For me, since it appears that the jury is still out, and the references we use as rules are two and a half millenia old, there may be some leeway in this matter if we stop being so polar about it.
 
Being rather secure in my own views, I see that in the case of religion as a phenomenon There is a great portion of belief that is in the category of “Because I said so.” It is kind of post hoc ergo proper hoc. That is why I have a concern about habitual faith, while having no illusion about the fact that as a race we are believers. The question is always “believers in and of what?”

Given the parameters of physical existence, we operate in a very narrow spectral range and are oriented early on to a perspective that we question to some degree or other. But it usually takes a shock to put us in a different position of evaluation than what we usually live by. So automatically the great majority of folks are all at odds to some kind and degree just because they were no all born on Mulberry Street in Flatland, Anywhere. So we kind of play with the cards we are dealt, and because of the nature of the mind, we have to believe that we are right, or go bonkers.

There are very few who can receive a shock and go into a place that is belief neutral. There are fewer still who can get to that state on their own. Sometimes we call these Saints or Sages if their outcome is in the direction of Unity with a higher Ideal, or we call them monsters if they break and perpetrate evil on their fellows. I distinguish the difference by the idea of egoism based on fear, greed, and a need to control the outside world as person “above” others, as distinct from Love, charity, and a desire to elevate the outside world as a participant “with” others.

One has to ask, if left to one’s own devices–ie not having a particular religion, and having heterosexual orientation, what would be our reaction/response to encountering another orientation? And if our reaction is revulsion, then is it attributable to an inherent morality, or to the natural xenophobia that most of us hide well until in a situation that outs it? And what of the reciprocal revulsion another orientation might have for ours? I used to think there were two: hetero- and homo- sexuals, but find this b/w distinct on too simplistic, if for no other reason than that it leaves out about one per cent of the population who are hermaphroditic. Since I have come to conclude that without that one per cent, the rest is still divided into roughly 12 categories, 6 each ascribed to the tow genders. So it is not so simple if you look below the superficial and consider a bigger picture. Even with four choices, would there not be a continuum? And if so, who is going to cast the first…I mean decide what’s acceptable. And who, moreover, would do that in the name of God?

Interpreting a Bible text is one thing. Applying it as law, as we find even in civil courts, is another. For my part it is too easy to have black and white dictums that apply universally. I say this because one of the major themes of Creation is uniqueness. even among things operantly identical. How does a penguin distinguish its mate from among tens of thousands in their rookery? And what about finger prints? Those are simplistic examples, but given the phenomenal diversity in just those two, why would there not be a phenomenal diversity in the natural tendency of psyches?

I know that apart from condemning the homosexual act, usually understood to be among men, it does not condemn homosexual tendencies as such but compares it to alcoholism, maintaining that it is an acquired trait. Nevertheless, the “because I said so” tendency of belief seems to have the upper hand in this matter, because the studies appear to be inconclusive. And we have to remember that we assess our world through the filters we choose, habituate, or normalize to. For me, since it appears that the jury is still out, and the references we use as rules are two and a half millenia old, there may be some leeway in this matter if we stop being so polar about it.
Hi antroji,
Another interesting post. I feel, though, that I’m a little confused by your “because I said so” references. Is this your subjective experience in the world or is it confined to the views expressed on this thread?
If applied solely to the thread, I am stumped! I read over the entire thread (yep, I’m a sad fellow!!) and nowhere do I find that tone employed.
Enlighten me on this one.
God Bless:)
 
Being rather secure in my own views, I see that in the case of religion as a phenomenon There is a great portion of belief that is in the category of “Because I said so.” It is kind of post hoc ergo proper hoc. That is why I have a concern about habitual faith, while having no illusion about the fact that as a race we are believers. The question is always “believers in and of what?”

Given the parameters of physical existence, we operate in a very narrow spectral range and are oriented early on to a perspective that we question to some degree or other. But it usually takes a shock to put us in a different position of evaluation than what we usually live by. So automatically the great majority of folks are all at odds to some kind and degree just because they were no all born on Mulberry Street in Flatland, Anywhere. So we kind of play with the cards we are dealt, and because of the nature of the mind, we have to believe that we are right, or go bonkers.

There are very few who can receive a shock and go into a place that is belief neutral. There are fewer still who can get to that state on their own. Sometimes we call these Saints or Sages if their outcome is in the direction of Unity with a higher Ideal, or we call them monsters if they break and perpetrate evil on their fellows. I distinguish the difference by the idea of egoism based on fear, greed, and a need to control the outside world as person “above” others, as distinct from Love, charity, and a desire to elevate the outside world as a participant “with” others.

One has to ask, if left to one’s own devices–ie not having a particular religion, and having heterosexual orientation, what would be our reaction/response to encountering another orientation? And if our reaction is revulsion, then is it attributable to an inherent morality, or to the natural xenophobia that most of us hide well until in a situation that outs it? And what of the reciprocal revulsion another orientation might have for ours? I used to think there were two: hetero- and homo- sexuals, but find this b/w distinct on too simplistic, if for no other reason than that it leaves out about one per cent of the population who are hermaphroditic. Since I have come to conclude that without that one per cent, the rest is still divided into roughly 12 categories, 6 each ascribed to the tow genders. So it is not so simple if you look below the superficial and consider a bigger picture. Even with four choices, would there not be a continuum? And if so, who is going to cast the first…I mean decide what’s acceptable. And who, moreover, would do that in the name of God?

Interpreting a Bible text is one thing. Applying it as law, as we find even in civil courts, is another. For my part it is too easy to have black and white dictums that apply universally. I say this because one of the major themes of Creation is uniqueness. even among things operantly identical. How does a penguin distinguish its mate from among tens of thousands in their rookery? And what about finger prints? Those are simplistic examples, but given the phenomenal diversity in just those two, why would there not be a phenomenal diversity in the natural tendency of psyches?

I know that apart from condemning the homosexual act, usually understood to be among men, it does not condemn homosexual tendencies as such but compares it to alcoholism, maintaining that it is an acquired trait. Nevertheless, the “because I said so” tendency of belief seems to have the upper hand in this matter, because the studies appear to be inconclusive. And we have to remember that we assess our world through the filters we choose, habituate, or normalize to. For me, since it appears that the jury is still out, and the references we use as rules are two and a half millenia old, there may be some leeway in this matter if we stop being so polar about it.
There is a great difference between truth and opinion.

Opinion is “because I sad so.”

Truth is something that is simply true.

But Truth is not desired today. Only debate that ends up contributing nothing.

What “studies appear to be inconclusive”? Are homosexuals acting on something they find inconclusive? No. They are on acting on what they perceive to be the truth.

Find truth and defend that. Ignore opinions. People act on the truth. This includes primitive men who lived in environments generally harsher and less forgiving than our own. They understood that giving the truth to their offspring would mean a better chance for life instead of death.

God bless,
Ed
 
It is extremely difficult to view homosexuality objectively because a heterosexual cannot understand the yearning of two homosexuals to be fully united both physically and psychologically. Homosexuals cannot understand why their union arouses so much revulsion among heterosexuals when their love is genuine, deep and permanent. It is possible for two individuals who love each other to live together without having sexual relations whatever their sexual orientation.

The question is whether such heroic sanctity is to be expected of two persons who find it extremely difficult to resist their physical desire for each other. The answer is clear in the case of those who sincerely believe they have the right not to repress their sexual urge which for them is an essential means of expressing their love.

At the same time it is wrong to give children the impression that one’s sexual orientation is a matter of choice. If they are not taught heterosexuality is the norm there is the danger that the pendulum will swing too far to the other extreme…
 
It is extremely difficult to view homosexuality objectively because a heterosexual cannot understand the yearning of two homosexuals to be fully united both physically and psychologically. Homosexuals cannot understand why their union arouses so much revulsion among heterosexuals when their love is genuine, deep and permanent. It is possible for two individuals who love each other to live together without having sexual relations whatever their sexual orientation.

The question is whether such heroic sanctity is to be expected of two persons who find it extremely difficult to resist their physical desire for each other. The answer is clear in the case of those who sincerely believe they have the right not to repress their sexual urge which for them is an essential means of expressing their love.

At the same time it is wrong to give children the impression that one’s sexual orientation is a matter of choice. If they are not taught heterosexuality is the norm there is the danger that the pendulum will swing too far to the other extreme…
I don’t know. I’m not aware of anyone dying from not having sex.

In your analysis, you’ll have to keep in mind that prior to promoting gay marriage in the US, the sodomy laws of all states were overturned first.

Acting on one’s sexual orientation, whatever it is, is always a matter of choice.

God bless,
Ed
 
I don’t know. I’m not aware of anyone dying from not having sex.
You probably have not experienced the same degree of frustration as others.
In your analysis, you’ll have to keep in mind that prior to promoting gay marriage in the US, the sodomy laws of all states were overturned first.
Why is that significant?
Acting on one’s sexual orientation, whatever it is, is always a matter of choice.
There are many degrees of hardship which vary according to the individual concerned. What is at stake here is a lifetime of abstinence imposed on a person through no fault of his or her own because of an accident of birth…
 
You probably have not experienced the same degree of frustration as others.
Why is that significant?

Is frustration justification for sin?
Why is that significant?

There are many degrees of hardship which vary according to the individual concerned. What is at stake here is a lifetime of abstinence imposed on a person through no fault of his or her own because of an accident of birth…
Who imposes this? A life of sin is self imposed, an act of the will. No one has proven that it is an accident of birth. And even if it were, why does it matter? Every day people are born with a wide variety disorders. Every one of them must be dealt with. They can chose to do so by pursuing good, or pursuing evil.
 
There is a great difference between truth and opinion.

Opinion is “because I sad so.”

Truth is something that is simply true.

But Truth is not desired today. Only debate that ends up contributing nothing.

What “studies appear to be inconclusive”? Are homosexuals acting on something they find inconclusive? No. They are on acting on what they perceive to be the truth.

Find truth and defend that. Ignore opinions. People act on the truth. This includes primitive men who lived in environments generally harsher and less forgiving than our own. They understood that giving the truth to their offspring would mean a better chance for life instead of death.
Truth is of course true. That should go without saying. The point is, why should someone else believe you when you say that you possess the truth? “Because I said so” is certainly not enough to convince many of us. “Because the church says so” may be enough for you, but most of us don’t submit to the authority of your church. In fact Most Catholics don’t submit the church in that way given that the majority of American Catholics (according to polls) disagree withe their church on some significant issue.

Then there is still the question, even if you are convinced that it is true that homosexuality is immoral, is it important that we make a law preventing it? For example, even though we all agree that it is immoral to refuse to help an old lady cross the street when asked for help, few of us think there ought to be a law requiring us to help. What place is there for virtue when morality is enforced with the coercive power of government? Some morality we think ought to be coerced and some not. Where do you draw the line? What makes you think that the government ought to be involved in dictating who can and can’t love one another?

Best,
Leela
 
antroji
People of faith in the Christian tradition, as well as many in other traditions, view the world as assembled through the lens of their particular Scriptures.
Well hardly. Those Catholics who choose to deny Her teaching don’t have faith in the indefectibility of the Catholic Church. Views, prejudices, contrary to Her teaching on the Sacred Scriptures constitute dissent for them, so their lenses are obscured.
We all know now that there has been doubt cast on the authorship of nearly half of Paul’s epistles to one degree or another. Today we would consider that type of thing forgery, deception, or misleading at best.
We know nothing of the kind – more dissent, as the Catholic Church has infallibly declared Her Scriptures to be free from all error.
things were moral or immoral at the times of those writings through a lens that we no longer use. And given that that happens, perhaps the interpretations we put on things today are not accurate in kind and degree to the extent we might believe they are.
Again, this is pure fiction, as faithful Catholics assent to. and try to live by, the teaching of Christ’s Church which is very clear on this moral activity.
saying “We’re right; live with it.” Such might be acceptable and admirable within or Faith, but not necessarily to other faiths and philosophies….the “because I said so” tendency of belief seems to have the upper hand in this matter, because the studies appear to be inconclusive.
Since when has Christ taught that His followers should stop offering His truth?
Repeated studies and the demonstrated results of remedial therapy show otherwise, and continued efforts to portray them otherwise have no basis in fact. (Posts #1023, 1020, 1001).
tonyrey
The question is whether such heroic sanctity is to be expected of two persons who find it extremely difficult to resist their physical desire for each other. The answer is clear in the case of those who sincerely believe they have the right not to repress their sexual urge which for them is an essential means of expressing their love….because of an accident of birth…
That “answer” is as clear as mud. How convenient to ignore Christ and the sins that defile (Mk 7:21-23, post #1083). Why should anyone with a sexual urge feel that they are exempt from the commandment on chastity and disregard God’s commands? The disorder is no “accident of birth” but is psychological – that is why remedial therapy can and does work.

christendom-awake.org/pages/may/faith-natural-law.htm (Prof William E May)
Excerpts:
“It is, consequently, of crucial importance for human beings to make good moral choices. For them to do so they must know, prior to choice, which alternatives are morally good and which are morally bad. The criteria enabling them to distinguish between morally good and morally bad alternatives are moral truths, and these truths (as we shall see below, in considering the “content” of the natural moral law) are the truths human persons come to know through the mediation of the natural moral law, their uniquely human way of “participating” in God’s divine and eternal law, his wise and loving plan for human existence.
“The natural moral law, in short, is given to all human beings in order to help them to make true judgments about what they are to do and in the light of this truth to make good moral choices. Yet the natural moral law does not enable human beings to do the good they come to know. They can, as personal experience tragically bears witness, freely choose to act against the truth – they can freely choose to do what they know to be morally bad.
 
Facing Reality – Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free.
Bishop Olmsted: ‘Love Authentically’ by Acknowledging Disorder of Homosexuality

lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/aug/10081104.html
“Living in an age of relativism and one marked by sound-bite triviality rather than thoughtful reasoning, such labelling of opposing opinions as ‘hang ups’ may come across as persuasive to some,” wrote Bishop Olmsted. "But if looked at logically, and especially if seen from the perspective of God’s plan for marriage revealed in the first chapters of the Bible (as well as from the perspective of natural law), it comes off as absurd and only nominally rational.

“What is at stake here is cultural sanity and viability. Defending the clear nature and purpose of marriage is not discrimination against homosexual persons.”

The Phoenix bishop questioned same-sex “marriage” proponents’ dismissal of the entire order of nature in order to reconstruct a new form of marriage. “Why did God create both men and women, not just one sex? Is it merely accidental that one is born either a woman or a man? Is femininity or masculinity of little import?” Olmsted asked. "Does it not matter if a child grows up with no mother but two fathers? Does the pandemic of cultural ills born of fatherlessness in so many of our homes teach us nothing?

“Is it really all that difficult to fathom that God had a plan for marriage, which He wove into the very fabric of human nature?” he wrote. In fact, said Olmsted, the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman for the sake of procreation “is so deeply embedded in our human nature that every culture in history has recognized it and enshrined and protected it in law and custom.” “Marriage being exclusively between a man and a woman was not an idea created by these cultures but, rather, a truth received by them as something handed down from a higher authority,” he wrote.

He rejected the implication by same-sex “marriage” advocates that, of all the ages of humanity, “ours an enlightened age that is wiser than previous ones” and that judges who destroy the legal definition of marriage are “helping us finally to rise up and overthrow the ‘hang ups’ of billions of people who have gone before us and to free us from the shackles of religion.”

Far from promoting unjust discrimination against homosexuals or a “homophobic” attitude, Olmsted insisted that recognizing homosexual tendencies for what they are - objectively disordered - manifests true love for those who experience such tendencies, while rejecting the idea that such individuals themselves are inferior or to blame.

“Love and truth go hand-in-hand. Everyone who experiences true love knows this — we want those we love to know the truth,” he wrote. “As Catholics, we want to love people authentically and not in a mediocre way that would ignore dangers in a person’s life out of a shallow concern for political correctness.”

Because of the nature of homosexual acts as contrary to the natural law, he explained, “to condone the homosexual lifestyle is never a move in favor of a person’s true happiness.”

“Moreover,” he continued, “to change the legal and societal definition of the fundamental institution of marriage in order to suit an adult sexual preference is a selfish and irresponsible corruption of the truth.” The state cannot redefine a reality it has received from God, he said, noting that doing violence to true marriage “will certainly have a negative impact on love, especially for children, who suffer most when marriage is weakened.”
 
The question is whether such heroic sanctity is to be expected of two persons who find it extremely difficult to resist their physical desire for each other. The answer is clear in the case of those who sincerely believe they have the right not to repress their sexual urge which for them is an essential means of expressing their love….because of an accident of birth…
Are you condemning all homosexuals who are not Catholics and do not accept Catholic teaching as immoral? If you were in power would you attempt to impose your beliefs and values by legislation?
 
You probably have not experienced the same degree of frustration as others.
Because it is uncharitable to demand those sacrifices from non-Catholic homosexuals who sincerely believe they are entitled to express their love.
A life of sin is self imposed, an act of the will. No one has proven that it is an accident of birth. And even if it were, why does it matter? Every day people are born with a wide variety disorders. Every one of them must be dealt with. They can chose to do so by pursuing good, or pursuing evil.
Do you believe it is right to attempt to impose your beliefs and values by force on those who do not share them?
 
Because it is uncharitable to demand those sacrifices from non-Catholic homosexuals who sincerely believe they are entitled to express their love.

Do you believe it is right to attempt to impose your beliefs and values by force on those who do not share them?
Tony,
I agree with your first statement above.

However, if I may, I think your second statement/question is taking the discussion on a different route.
The “force” you refer to is laws and regulations, right? Are we(ie society) not already embroiled in this issue? The gay agenda lobby ceaselessly campaigns to get laws changed in the US. Should those who oppose them be now stigmatised as being somehow blinded by what (as has been amply demonstrated on this thread) is a strong and true faith-based belief?

Hope I am not misconstruing your argument on this!

God Bless,

Colmcille1.🙂
 
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