Can Homosexuality Be Proved Wrong From Natural Law

[ddarko]

no i’m not talking about romantic love. i’m talking about the kind of love that God is. Divine love. let me rephrase.

"I guess basically, i dont see how any act whatsoever that is acted upon with God in your heart, can be morally wrong in any way. "

Besides you played the straw man and only responded to the last sentence when i put forth another, far more interesting argument.

“IMHO Beliefs such as “homosexuality is wrong” can be damaging in the psychological sphere to the point where its effects can directly oppose the intent (fulfillment and Divine Love) that are the base points of the religion, and can lead to promotion of physical self harm and even suicide because of self hatred.”

aaah I thought you would already know why your argument

"IMHO Beliefs such as “homosexuality is wrong” can be damaging in the psychological sphere to the point where its effects can directly oppose the intent (fulfillment and Divine Love) that are the base points of the religion, and can lead to promotion of physical self harm and even suicide because of self hatred"

is useless. Psychological damage is irrelevant if something is wrong. If mr. X is criminally insane, I am not supposed to tell him he is OK. Right and wrong do not depend on how it makes you feel lol.

If one decides to self harm or commit suicide, its a FREE choice he/she makes. The correct thing would be to own up to the problem and try to fix it.

Christ didn’t think about the psychological scarring the Pharisees were getting when he was pointing out their wrongs lol. Are you familiar with Catholicism at all ?

Secondly, divine love is the same. It is a FREE Choice by God.

Now your argument

"I guess basically, i dont see how any act whatsoever that is acted upon with God in your heart, can be morally wrong in any way. "

is terribly wrong. If mr. X had Jesus in his heart when he decapitated mr. Y, does it make mr. X right? NO. Its still morally WRONG. Right and Wrong does not depend on what you believe or what you had in your heart. That is the error you are making.

Also, you have a pretty low standard of divine love btw haha.

God Bless

 

[colmcille1]

I’m afraid you are. We should fight tooth and nail - by peaceful means(!) - for what we believe is good, right and just. We have a moral obligation to explain why it is wrong to give children the impression that they are free to choose their sexual orientation and to commit acts considered to be wrong by the Church. But we have to abide by the laws of the secular society in which we live even though we strongly oppose them. This is one of the drawbacks of living in a democratic society in which the majority are quite often mistaken - although I’m sure you wouldn’t prefer to be in a totalitarian state.

God Bless,

Tony

Ah yes, I see your point now, thanks for that!

God Bless,

Colmcille1.

 

[ddarko]

no i’m not talking about romantic love. i’m talking about the kind of love that God is. Divine love. let me rephrase.

"I guess basically, i dont see how any act whatsoever that is acted upon with God (Love [capital L]) in your heart, can be morally wrong in any way. "

Besides you played the straw man and only responded to the last sentence when i put forth two other, far more interesting arguments.

“IMHO Beliefs such as “homosexuality is wrong” can be damaging in the psychological sphere to the point where its effects can directly oppose the intent (fulfillment and Divine Love) that are the base points of the religion, and can lead to promotion of physical self harm and even suicide because of self hatred.”

“i dont understand. If the basis of your church is to have a relationship with Jesus Christ and the Divine for the purpose of finding fulfillment and Divine Love in this life, and this can be achieved even if one participates in homosexuality (as is evident in fulfilled homosexual christians), let alone completely different belief systems, why does it even matter?”

 

[Soulewolf]

aaah I thought you would already know why your argument

"IMHO Beliefs such as “homosexuality is wrong” can be damaging in the psychological sphere to the point where its effects can directly oppose the intent (fulfillment and Divine Love) that are the base points of the religion, and can lead to promotion of physical self harm and even suicide because of self hatred"

is useless. Psychological damage is irrelevant if something is wrong. If mr. X is criminally insane, I am not supposed to tell him he is OK. Right and wrong do not depend on how it makes you feel lol.

Secondly, divine love is the same. It is a FREE Choice by God.

i would say that any belief held within a system that is counterproductive to the ends that system is trying to achieve, is flawed

Now your argument

"I guess basically, i dont see how any act whatsoever that is acted upon with God in your heart, can be morally wrong in any way. "

is terribly wrong. If mr. X had Jesus in his heart when he decapitated mr. Y, does it make mr. X right? NO. Its still morally WRONG. Right and Wrong does not depend on what you believe or what you had in your heart. That is the error you are making.

God Bless

i would disagree. If Divine Love is the ultimate in morality, then even if it is not apparent that it is a moral act, it still is an objectively moral act because Divine Love supersedes mortal understanding of morality. For instance, the slaughtering of the Midianites commanded by Moses.

Also, you have a pretty low standard of divine love btw haha.

I would appreciate it if you would not judge my relationship with Divinity. Even the RC church states that your relationship with God is your own.

PS:
you missed this argument

“i dont understand. If the basis of your church is to have a relationship with Jesus Christ and the Divine for the purpose of finding fulfillment and Divine Love in this life, and this can be achieved even if one participates in homosexuality (as is evident in fulfilled homosexual christians), let alone completely different belief systems, why does it even matter?”

 

[ddarko]

i would say that any belief held within a system that is counterproductive to the ends that system is trying to achieve, is flawed

Whats counterproductive? Earthly suffering is not considered counterproductive in Christianity. You are missing the fact that the ultimate end is salvation. Not freedom from mental suffering lol.

i would disagree. If Divine Love is the ultimate in morality, then even if it is not apparent that it is a moral act, it still is an objectively moral act because Divine Love supersedes mortal understanding of morality. For instance, the slaughtering of the Midianites commanded by Moses.

Oh, wait. Now you are starting to show your inadequate knowledge of Christianity. The slaughter of midianites was a choice by God. God can choose to take life which he created as well as give life. You can’t equate man to God lol. The last guy who tried that ended up in hell That is how grave a sin that is.

So no, you are wrong. What you have in your heart is irrelevant. You have to follow what God lays down as right and wrong.

I would appreciate it if you would not judge my relationship with Divinity. Even the RC church states that your relationship with God is your own.

lol I will not hesitate to point out an error. The relationship is your own, but right and wrong is same FOR ALL. I am not protestant lol. So be prepared for some mass criticism if you put forward more and more incorrect points about theological concepts

If you are arguing against the Roman Catholic church to prove logical inconsistency, you should at least get the concepts right lol. From what I am seeing, you’ve got long ways to go haha.

God Bless

P.S. Btw I took the time to answer your reply on the other thread in case you missed it .

 

[Soulewolf]

Whats counterproductive? Earthly suffering is not considered counterproductive in Christianity. You are missing the fact that the ultimate end is salvation. Not freedom from mental suffering lol.

the fact that the self hatred caused by the belief that “homosexuality is wrong”, futhers an individual from a loving relationship with God.

Oh, wait. Now you are starting to show your inadequate knowledge of Christianity. The slaughter of midianites was a choice by God. God can choose to take life which he created as well as give life. You can’t equate man to God lol. The last guy who tried that ended up in hell That is how grave a sin that is.

i just said that… Yeah it was a choice by god. God is omnibenevolent. The slaughtering was objectively a moral act.

lol I will not hesitate to point out an error. The relationship is your own, but right and wrong is same FOR ALL. I am not protestant lol. So be prepared for some mass criticism if you put forward more and more incorrect points about theological concepts

God is infinite. therefor there can be no objective “error” in a relationship between you and him simply because the divine can manifest itself in whatever way it wishes. Just because it is different than yours does not make it any less real or full of Truth (capital T).

If you are arguing against the Roman Catholic church to prove logical inconsistency, you should at least get the concepts right lol. From what I am seeing, you’ve got long ways to go haha.

mmmm something tells me i dont have to worry about this.

 

[ddarko]

the fact that the self hatred caused by the belief that “homosexuality is wrong”, futhers an individual from a loving relationship with God.

Well thats the individuals problem isn’t it? He has to overcome his issues. He can’t self loathe himself. God does not say to be Homosexual is a sin. Its to practice homosexuality that is a sin. So I see no problem.

i just said that… Yeah it was a choice by god. God is omnibenevolent. The slaughtering was objectively a moral act.

Andddd??? You are trying to say that homosexual love is an omnibenevolent act so its ok lol?

God is infinite. therefor there can be no objective “error” in a relationship between you and him simply because the divine can manifest itself in whatever way it wishes. Just because it is different than yours does not make it any less real or full of Truth (capital T).
mmmm something tells me i dont have to worry about this.

lol I don’t know what that something is, but let me tell you that you are wrong haha. God is infinite. He knows how to have a perfect relationship with you. But you on the other hand are far from perfect or infinite lol. So its not God I am worried about. Its YOU lol.

God Bless

 

[tonyrey]

If the basis of your church is to have a relationship with Jesus Christ and the Divine for the purpose of finding fulfillment and Divine Love in this life, and this can be achieved even if one participates in homosexuality (as is evident in fulfilled homosexual christians), let alone completely different belief systems, why does it even matter?

It matters because there is convincing evidence that homosexual intercourse frequently leads to physical and psychological ill-health and even when the individuals have no religion they are more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals. No matter how much we sympathise with their plight the fact remains that two male bodies are not designed for copulation with each other. It is to be expected that such unnatural activity over a prolonged period of time will have harmful effects.

IMHO Beliefs such as “homosexuality is wrong” can be damaging in the psychological sphere to the point where its effects can directly oppose the intent (fulfillment and Divine Love) that are the base points of the religion, and can lead to promotion of physical self harm and even suicide because of self hatred.

That is true but it obviously does not apply to homosexuals who have no religion. If they do it can be pointed out to them that being physically attracted to each other is not wrong but to mimic sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is likely to harm both mind and body. To put pleasure before health deliberately and unnecessarily is clearly a culpable mistake.

I guess basically, i dont see how any act whatsoever that is acted upon with Divine Love as its base intention, can be morally wrong in any way.

I’m afraid that argument could justify the atrocities of fanatics who claim to be motivated by love for God and their suffering compatriots.

 

[Soulewolf]

Well thats the individuals problem isn’t it? He has to overcome his issues. He can’t self loathe himself. God does not say to be Homosexual is a sin. Its to practice homosexuality that is a sin. So I see no problem.

well no. even if a homosexual doesnt practice homosexuality, they can still be damaged psychologically by the belief either directly or indirectly, which again leads to self loathing, which leads further away from a relationship with the Divine.

Andddd??? You are trying to say that homosexual love is an omnibenevolent act so its ok lol?

So i say any act inspired by Truth (capital T) is objectively moral.

God is infinite. He knows how to have a perfect relationship with you. But you on the other hand are far from perfect or infinite lol.

so wouldent it make sense that relationships with the Divine would vary from person to person?

God Bless

 

[larkin31]

Well thats the individuals problem isn’t it? He has to overcome his issues. He can’t self loathe himself. God does not say to be Homosexual is a sin. Its to practice homosexuality that is a sin. So I see no problem.

You are ignoring the culture-wide ostracism and demonization of gays that has persisted for thousands of years. Children and young people do not understand this difference when they are being mocked, derided, and told that to act on the physical love they feel is an abomination.

There is, indeed, a problem.

 

[antroji]

Originally Posted by tonyrey
I’m afraid you are. We should fight tooth and nail - by peaceful means(!) - for what we believe is good, right and just. We have a moral obligation to explain why it is wrong to give children the impression that they are free to choose their sexual orientation and to commit acts considered to be wrong by the Church. But we have to abide by the laws of the secular society in which we live even though we strongly oppose them. This is one of the drawbacks of living in a democratic society in which the majority are quite often mistaken - although I’m sure you wouldn’t prefer to be in a totalitarian state.

God Bless,

Tony

I agree with most of this, Tonyrey, but I'm sorry, I have never in all my acquaintances ever met a homosexual or lesbian person who consciously made a choice to be that way as distinct from act that way. I have met some who are in denial of their orientation, and I have met many who acted out heterosexual scenarios and were sorry and eventually had to be honest with themselves and others. So I don't understand the insistence on anyone's part that it is a choice, so far as attraction is concerned. And so I also don't see that it is a concern of "allowing" our children to think they can "choose" to be homosexual any more than I, or anyone, can change their heterosexual orientation by a decision. 

I am also surprised that no comments have been made on here about the notion that there certainly must be a gradation of orientations, not to mention those small numbers born hermaphroditic. But I guess it is easier for us all to deal with issues that we think are clearly black and white in this Universe which is mostly anything but that.

 

[Soulewolf]

It matters because there is convincing evidence that homosexual intercourse frequently leads to physical and psychological ill-health and even when the individuals have no religion they are more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals. No matter how much we sympathise with their plight the fact remains that two male bodies are not designed for copulation with each other. It is to be expected that such unnatural activity over a prolonged period of time will have harmful effects.

The suicide rates are so high because of the general social stigma about homosexuality which is based in christian belief on the subject.

That is true but it obviously does not apply to homosexuals who have no religion. If they do it can be pointed out to them that being physically attracted to each other is not wrong but to mimic sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is likely to harm both mind and body. To put pleasure before health deliberately and unnecessarily is clearly a culpable mistake.

the other points you make generally have to do with harm so i’ll post my response to both here.

Heterosexual intercourse back in the day was likely to lead to the death of the female (if done safely and correctly) while giving birth. homosexual sex (if done safely and correctly) does not. Would heterosexual sex then be more immoral than homosexual sex?

Because of this, a deeper understanding of the metaphysical nature of the sexual act would have to be known and proven philosophically (not theologically) in order for the “harm” argument to make sense.

I’m afraid that argument could justify the atrocities of fanatics who claim to be motivated by love for God and their suffering compatriots.

maybe it can, maybe it cant. Depends on what Truth (capital T) really is.

 

[ddarko]

well no. even if a homosexual doesnt practice homosexuality, they can still be damaged psychologically by the belief either directly or indirectly, which again leads to self loathing, which leads further away from a relationship with the Divine.

Um, yes so can a lot of other things. You can say that guilt from a murder can cause self loathing. But it doesn’t make murder wrong. So the same reply applies, what is Right and Wrong is independent of how it makes you feel. If you feel something bad as a result of it, what you choose to do is still your free choice.

So i say any act inspired by Truth (capital T) is objectively moral.

Sure. But obviously Truth has lent its verdict on Homosexuality lol. Take what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah haha.

so wouldent it make sense that relationships with the Divine would vary from person to person?

God Bless

Um, depends on what level you are talking about. The personal relationship can be different in the sense that how you understand him. But it still has to be the same Truth. That is the essence of Christianity. There is only one truth. If you have a vision of God that is incompatible with Christianity, then you are most likely just wrong.

God Bless

 

[Soulewolf]

Um, yes so can a lot of other things. You can say that guilt from a murder can cause self loathing. But it doesn’t make murder wrong. So the same reply applies, what is Right and Wrong is independent of how it makes you feel. If you feel something bad as a result of it, what you choose to do is still your free choice.

i disagree. After everyone telling you “you are evil and deserve to die” for the entirety of your life, sooner or later you will believe it and do what you think is the only right thing to do, which is kill yourself because you cant change. I’ve seen it. It sucks. shrugs

Sure. But obviously Truth has lent its verdict on Homosexuality lol. Take what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah haha.

Evidently not because Fulfilled homosexual christians exist.

Um, depends on what level you are talking about. The personal relationship can be different in the sense that how you understand him. But it still has to be the same Truth. That is the essence of Christianity. There is only one truth. If you have a vision of God that is incompatible with Christianity, then you are most likely just wrong.

God Bless

I disagree.

 

[ddarko]

i disagree. After everyone telling you “you are evil and deserve to die” for the entirety of your life, sooner or later you will believe it and do what you think is the only right thing to do, which is kill yourself because you cant change. I’ve seen it. It sucks. shrugs

Well you are NOT evil for being a homosexual. Only homosexual actions are EVIL. Killing yourself is not the option. If thats how you view things, its just sad.

Evidently not because Fulfilled homosexual christians exist.

lol what on earth is a fulfilled homosexual Christian? You don’t even have a clue about Christian doctrine and you know “fulfilled homosexual christians” lol?

I disagree.

That was pretty intelligent

God Bless

 

[Soulewolf]

Well you are NOT evil for being a homosexual. Only homosexual actions are EVIL. Killing yourself is not the option. If thats how you view things, its just sad.

hmm well would you say that more people would have a relationship with jesus christ if the idea that homosexual acts were evil was eliminated from history?

lol what on earth is a fulfilled homosexual Christian? You don’t even have a clue about Christian doctrine and you know “fulfilled homosexual christians” lol?

christian can be defined as: following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ

there are homosexuals who are fulfilled individuals who are christians.

 

[Abu]

tonyrey
Are you condemning all homosexuals who are not Catholics and do not accept Catholic teaching as immoral? If you were in power would you attempt to impose your beliefs and values by legislation? Do you believe it is right to attempt to impose your beliefs and values by force on those who do not share them?

Using the natural moral law, all homosexual activity is wrong – the disorder is factual, and the individual is free to seek help. The natural moral law applies to all, regardless of race, colour or creed. Legislation should conform to the natural moral law which is universal, and be directed to the common good. Truth should be offered to all.

“Man is capable by his own activity of acquiring what is lacking and developing what is already possessed to fulfill his nature. So man can know his incompleteness; he can see what he is now and discover the direction of fulfillment by scrutiny of his own nature in body, mind and spirit – to achieve himself fully. As a free agent, he has an obligation to achieve himself fully, and this bond of obligation is the natural law. All that is knowable about man through psychology, history or any of the sciences is relevant to the natural law, is part of the natural law. The natural law is outside of man’s control because created by God in man’s nature.
[See Fr Paul M Quay, S.J., in *Why Humanae Vitae Was Right, Ignatius 1993, p 21-4]

“If someone is attracted to drugs or to alcohol, we do not accept that attraction as a given, or indicate that it is beyond their power to reject. The truth is that we are dealing with an objective disorder within the person. The parent should do everything possible to help the youth to move away from this particular attraction, and from the surroundings which encourage him to act out. If pastors are going to advise parents concerning homosexuality, they should remind parents that their first obligation is to protect the child from immoral and dangerous behaviour.” [Fr John A Harvey, O.S.F.S.].

Unlike the feeling of Soulewolf, who equates anything one wants to do sexually with “love”, the twofold love commandment of the Bible authentically expresses in religious language the fundamental or first moral principle of natural law….the function of the first moral principle is to provide us with a criterion for distinguishing which alternatives of choice are morally good and which are morally bad. All are called to chastity.

No one can change the natural moral law.

 

[ddarko]

hmm well would you say that more people would have a relationship with jesus christ if the idea that homosexual acts were evil was eliminated from history?

aah you see the problem here is that you believe that the “relationship” can be of any nature. For one to have a true relationship with Christ, his actions must be compatible with Christ’s teachings or in other words God’s teachings. So it does not make sense to say it would be easier for me to have a relationship with Christ if he didn’t want me to do this.

By your logic, one can argue that nothing should be wrong. Then it would be MUCH MUCH easier to have a relationship with Christ. But obviously that is meaningless. A relationship is about understanding what the other person demands of you. Otherwise its just you believing that you have one.

christian can be defined as: following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ

there are homosexuals who are fulfilled individuals who are christians.

Um do you mean homosexuals who are not sexually active? Because if they are sexually active then they do not manifest the teachings of Christ or God Thus they are Sinning.

Its as simple as that really.

God Bless

 

[larkin31]

…Legislation should conform to the natural moral law which is universal, and be directed to the common good.

Should masturbation be against the law?

 

[davidv]

Should masturbation be against the law?

It already is if done in public.