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larkin31
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I actually agree with you, but rarely do traditional Christians espouse such views concerning experience vs text.
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Abu
Guest
Unless and until you really listen to Jesus of Nazareth you will always fail to understand His teaching. He did not give us the Bible, His Church did, and only She can interpret His teaching correctly. When She tells us that homosexual activity is gravely wrong no one can dispute Her teaching. We think with our brains – intellects with which we reason, not with “feelings” – the bane of error and wrongdoing. All men and women are called to chastity, regardless.
When you are ready to listen and to follow Jesus, the Son of God, – and no other man even seriously claimed to be God – you will heed Him: “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words…shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment than for that city.” (Mt 10: 14-15). Not only is this perversion condemned in the Old Testament but more than once Saint Paul lists this sin among those which will exclude someone from Heaven.
The circular devices used here to try to escape the reality of homosexual perversion are legion.
A self-serving mantra trying to obliterate “Keep the Commandments.” (Mt 19:17). It is so easy to ignore the Master’s examples on how we fail to love God or neighbour in His warnings of sins which defile or befoul (Mk 7:21-23), in addition to ignoring His guarantees against error in His Church when transmitting His truths.
“If you love Me keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). Catholics don’t appreciate love used as an excuse to jettison His other Commandments, which include the sins which Christ described as defiling (in Mk 7:21). Some seem to think that the two Commandments of love somehow enable us to reject or wink at the other Commandments. A false idea of “legalism” is easily dispelled as Christ told the woman taken in adultery to “sin no more” as she had breached the sixth commandment – which ensured that she paid more attention to the law. (Jn 8:3-11).
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Abu
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As you know perfectly well from post #1080, Christ’s Church in CCC #2358 teaches: …“This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
Faithful Catholics assent to, and try to live, ALL of Her teachings which are incomparable as they come from God and are protected against error.
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Abu
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The confusion here displays two monumental errors.
- Apart from commanding the woman found in adultery to “go and sin no more” the Christ commanded us to
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).
That is precisely why we must judge actions, speech, writing against true teaching as to what is good and what is evil.
That is precisely why we can identify wrong and error and offer Christ’s saving truths.
- As no defined doctrine nor any dogma has ever been contradicted, and never will, to insinuate this is false. Thus it is fantasy to feel that the teaching that homosexual activity is gravely wrong as against the natural moral law “may” or “can” be changed. Such an opinion illustrates a grave misunderstanding of Christ and His Church and contradicts Her teaching in Vatican II (Gaudium et Spes) and in Humanae Vitae.
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Soulewolf
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you dont see anything wrong with that?
i can and quite often do. In fact disputing this teaching and questioning and searching for Divinity has brought me farther towards a deeper relationship with Divinity than the years of catholic school and churchgoing ever could have. More importantly it taught me about Love.
The brain is not just a mere tool of logic. Believe me it took me a while to learn this. I was born with a form of high functioning autism called Aspergers. This means i went through a whole lot of my life not understanding emotion. It is no way to live. In fact if you ask a professional, they will tell you that this specific form of autism is remarkably close to being sociopathic.
Reasoning is not the only part of who you are. If you reject what you feel, then in what sense are you giving your entire being to Christ?
One can only ever do what one feels is right. The reasoning behind why they feel it is right might differ, such as you not believing homosexuality to be moral because of your religious beliefs or personal philosophies. You feel this is right. If you felt it was wrong like i do, you would not participate in such a belief.
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Abu
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“Feeling” that you have a “deeper relationship” by denying Christ and His “If you love Me keep My commandments” (Jn 14:15) is precisely the opposite of real love. For Christ, love has no place without obedience – “He became the source of salvation to all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9).
“Feeling” is “an inner favourable reaction to an idea” (Faith and Certitude, Fr Thomas Dubay, S.M., Ignatius, 1985, p 76), the malady with which you are afflicted – without reason you have made your own truth – rejecting Christ. You are following instead your likes and preferences. This is known as “wishful thinking”.
Your own dogma is: “One can only ever do what one feels is right.” In stark contrast the Mother of Jesus said; “Do whatever He tells you.” (Jn 2:5). Christ has the answer to all of those following your opinion: “Whoever denies Me before men, him also will I deny before My Father.” (Mt 10:33).
In *Veritatis Splendor *the Holy Father emphasizes: “It is a question of the decision of faith, of the obedience of faith (cf. Rom 16.26) 'by which man makes a total and free self-commitment to God, offering “the full submission of intellect and will to God as he reveals.” “Feelings” cannot make truth.
The key is assent to dogma and doctrine, with the obedience of faith as St Paul emphasises (Rom 1:5; 16.26), with the St Escriva admonition to be simple but not simpletons. In other words those who believe in nothing but their feelings will tend to fall for anything.
You might consider how Christ addresses His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end”. Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51). That is real love – showing when they are wrong and so helping them to begin to live His truth which is found now only through His Church.
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Charlemagne_II
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Soulewolf
One can only ever do what one feels is right. The reasoning behind why they* feel** it is right might differ, such as you not believing homosexuality to be moral because of your religious beliefs or personal philosophies. You feel this is right. If you felt it was wrong like i do, you would not participate in such a belief. *
Well, this is your bottom line, isn’t it. Feeling? We do not decide what is right by what we feel to be right at a given moment, when the feeling conveniently comes over us and we want to give in to it. We decide what is right by what we know is right now and forever. If our will is determined, we can always enlist the service of intellect to justify any feeling. But we cannot enlist the service of feeling to justify any duty. Indeed, sometimes duty calls forth feelings we would prefer not to have if it were possible to avoid them.
This tendency to satisfy desire before duty is at the heart of all subjectivist (relativist) thought.
At Gethsemani Jesus felt (desired, was tempted) to ask if he was required to drink from his cup of suffering, but then acquiesced in doing so because he knew it was his duty, his very reason for being Jesus.
One can only ever do what one feels is right. The reasoning behind why they* feel** it is right might differ, such as you not believing homosexuality to be moral because of your religious beliefs or personal philosophies. You feel this is right. If you felt it was wrong like i do, you would not participate in such a belief. *
Well, this is your bottom line, isn’t it. Feeling? We do not decide what is right by what we feel to be right at a given moment, when the feeling conveniently comes over us and we want to give in to it. We decide what is right by what we know is right now and forever. If our will is determined, we can always enlist the service of intellect to justify any feeling. But we cannot enlist the service of feeling to justify any duty. Indeed, sometimes duty calls forth feelings we would prefer not to have if it were possible to avoid them.
This tendency to satisfy desire before duty is at the heart of all subjectivist (relativist) thought.
At Gethsemani Jesus felt (desired, was tempted) to ask if he was required to drink from his cup of suffering, but then acquiesced in doing so because he knew it was his duty, his very reason for being Jesus.
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Soulewolf
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This is where you and i differ greatly then. This is not the infinite and conscious love that i witnessed. This love is patient and kind. Understanding and nurturing. It speaks to you through paradigms that you know and understand so you can better know its message. But hey i’m not here to defend my belief system or say your own is wrong. i’m here to discuss philosophic and theological ideas and expand my own understanding of Divinity through the experiences of the Catholic.
On that note:
“We decide what is right by what we know is right now and forever.”
and how do you know what is right?
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larkin31
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SW, thanks for sharing. And, yes, many valuable philosophies and social science teach that a balance of feeling and reason is most healthy, most “wise,” most human, even most “divine.”
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Charlemagne_II
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Soulewolf
*and how do you know what is right? *
By the natural law (instinct, common sense) and by revelation. If you don’t get it one way, you can get it the other.
*and how do you know what is right? *
By the natural law (instinct, common sense) and by revelation. If you don’t get it one way, you can get it the other.
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Soulewolf
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nods and how do you know you can trust these ideas?Soulewolf
*and how do you know what is right? *
By the natural law (instinct, common sense) and by revelation. If you don’t get it one way, you can get it the other.
actually i’m going to speed this up. More than likely i will ask a string of questions which will lead you to say that its all about Faith. Then I will ask two more questions: What is the emotional nature of faith? and why do you have Faith?
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antroji
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And perhaps “How did you acquire that faith?”
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Charlemagne_II
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nods and how do you know you can trust these ideas?
Because they are natural to us.
Homosexuality is unnatural. The penis was made for making babies, not for shoving it in another man’s mouth.
*More than likely i will ask a string of questions which will lead you to say that its all about Faith. Then I will ask two more questions: What is the emotional nature of faith? and why do you have Faith? *
Ah, I see you are itching to change the subject? Anyway, our faith is consistent with the natural law. Plato did not have faith, but he had enough intelligence to see that homosexual acts were shameful. Those who have no faith and are consumed with justifying homosexual acts have no intelligence or common sense. Many are so consumed by homosexual acts they don’t even bother to justify it.
I have made these points earlier in this thread, but it seems they have to be repeated because the same objections are brought up over and over.
Because they are natural to us.
Homosexuality is unnatural. The penis was made for making babies, not for shoving it in another man’s mouth.
*More than likely i will ask a string of questions which will lead you to say that its all about Faith. Then I will ask two more questions: What is the emotional nature of faith? and why do you have Faith? *
Ah, I see you are itching to change the subject? Anyway, our faith is consistent with the natural law. Plato did not have faith, but he had enough intelligence to see that homosexual acts were shameful. Those who have no faith and are consumed with justifying homosexual acts have no intelligence or common sense. Many are so consumed by homosexual acts they don’t even bother to justify it.
I have made these points earlier in this thread, but it seems they have to be repeated because the same objections are brought up over and over.
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Soulewolf
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you already said that when you said “natural law”. I’m asking why you can trust the idea of natural law. How do you know what is natural?
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Charlemagne_II
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you already said that when you said “natural law”. I’m asking why you can trust the idea of natural law.
Because it makes sense?
Why else would I trust it? 
Because it makes sense?
Why else would I trust it?
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Soulewolf
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i’ve removed the parts with the appeals to authority and baseless statements.
I’m not asking if its consistent or not. i’m asking what the emotional nature of Faith is, and why you choose to have faith, and a good new question “how you acquired that faith”
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Soulewolf
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so you feel like it makes sense?you already said that when you said “natural law”. I’m asking why you can trust the idea of natural law.
Because it makes sense?
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Abu
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Soulewolf
Nobody in his right mind could “feel” that it makes sense.
The natural law makes sense because reason shows that it is reasonable.
There is ample evidence of the fact of the natural moral law, and the fact that pagans, Ancient Egyptians, Roman philosopher Cicero (died 43 B.C.), Roman jurists, Sodom and Gomorrah, attest to it, and to the fact that it must be followed or the consequences must be paid, plus the simple steps that show the immorality of sodomy, the disorder of the homosexual, and the success of reparative therapy programs that enable many so afflicted to lead a normal life.
Nobody in his right mind could “feel” that it makes sense.
The natural law makes sense because reason shows that it is reasonable.
There is ample evidence of the fact of the natural moral law, and the fact that pagans, Ancient Egyptians, Roman philosopher Cicero (died 43 B.C.), Roman jurists, Sodom and Gomorrah, attest to it, and to the fact that it must be followed or the consequences must be paid, plus the simple steps that show the immorality of sodomy, the disorder of the homosexual, and the success of reparative therapy programs that enable many so afflicted to lead a normal life.
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