L
larkin31
Guest
Interesting, indeed.
- Status
T
Tuno
Guest
Yes, Inocente, thanks for posting that. Such a statement identifies why it seems to be an act of arrogance to presume that one knows the full and complete “natural” law, especially through the heavily filtered lense of a particualr faith system by whatever name it is called, and whatever benevolent tenets it might expouse.
For my part, when I first discovered that there was such a theing as same sex attrection, it was very odd to me, and I felt repulsed and quite xenophobic when in the presence of someone identified as or clearly homosexual. It took me years, I would say, to get past my prejudice of discomfort and see people, and then my friends, of different orientation thatn my own, simply as people who were dealing with a different dynamic. I had, primarily, to get over the feeliing of being threatened by the sense of being an object of amorous intention. Such a big deal, heh, heh, as I was not someone who had droves of women at his heels anyway, lol!
But that is to say it was a matter of my own maturity that yielded the feelings I had to deal wiht and get past. It wasn’t any “natural law” question for me. I had a wife who was in theater. As for a previous comment about backbiting an petty behaviour, I found that common not only in theater, but in every other work venue I’ve been in, save a few. And when I was emplyed by a man who was a noted metaphysician. it became clear over time that many of the people, male and female, whom I dealt with on a daily basis were homosexual. I simply had to deal with it a a fact of life, not as an issue pertinent to any law. I also had to come to terms with the great variety of contributions many homosexuals have made in every field of endeavor.
If there is a law involved, it is the Law of Love. The Great Commandment and the two forms of the Golden Rule finally took precedence in my heart over the misbegotten prejudice of my youth. I could relate to individuals a companions on a soul journey as distinct from judging folks by a third party dogmatic schema that abstracted behavior in a way that finally functioned as a barrier to charity and virtuous relations. What if I looked at you and passed my interaction with you through the general filter “sinner!” and even got specific: thief, liar, fornicator, whatever? Human law or not, our judgements and actions or not, God is Just and we each get our own. I, for my part will aid if asked, and protect if necessary, but I will not judge, especially by specious references to an interpretation of Nature anthropomorphized into submission by any religion, including Catholic.
So if there is a “natural” law that applies, it is the natural law of a loving heart that sees no distinctions that catagorize one kind of “sinner” and makes them more equal than another kind of sinner. As for marriages? I invite you to do some work with dysfunctional families and see if heterosexuality by itself is any advertisement whatsoever for successful and thriving relationships or any certifiable degree of religious/spiritual accomplishment.
We are looking in the wrong area of need if we are looking to the fulfilment of dogma and scripture from simply the genders of relationships. Spiritual maturity, indeed goodness itself, is demostrated to be apart from religious affilitaiton whatever that religion claims for itself as creed or mission. Call up your Saints as examples if you wish, but show me another faith that has not their equal in Love of God or miracles, or whatnot. Basiclly, grow up! Tend your own green acre, if that is it’s color, and see if anyone is attracted to how well you tend your crops. There are many on here that proffer the moral equivalent of strains genetically modified by alterations misapplied under the auspices of fear, loathing, and ignorance. The “natural law” you espouse is the “law” of your own prejudice legitimized by third party standards distorted to the actual issue at hand. What you won’t face is yourself in it’s own greatness and grandeur; you choose personal pettiness instead and call it God.
For my part, when I first discovered that there was such a theing as same sex attrection, it was very odd to me, and I felt repulsed and quite xenophobic when in the presence of someone identified as or clearly homosexual. It took me years, I would say, to get past my prejudice of discomfort and see people, and then my friends, of different orientation thatn my own, simply as people who were dealing with a different dynamic. I had, primarily, to get over the feeliing of being threatened by the sense of being an object of amorous intention. Such a big deal, heh, heh, as I was not someone who had droves of women at his heels anyway, lol!
But that is to say it was a matter of my own maturity that yielded the feelings I had to deal wiht and get past. It wasn’t any “natural law” question for me. I had a wife who was in theater. As for a previous comment about backbiting an petty behaviour, I found that common not only in theater, but in every other work venue I’ve been in, save a few. And when I was emplyed by a man who was a noted metaphysician. it became clear over time that many of the people, male and female, whom I dealt with on a daily basis were homosexual. I simply had to deal with it a a fact of life, not as an issue pertinent to any law. I also had to come to terms with the great variety of contributions many homosexuals have made in every field of endeavor.
If there is a law involved, it is the Law of Love. The Great Commandment and the two forms of the Golden Rule finally took precedence in my heart over the misbegotten prejudice of my youth. I could relate to individuals a companions on a soul journey as distinct from judging folks by a third party dogmatic schema that abstracted behavior in a way that finally functioned as a barrier to charity and virtuous relations. What if I looked at you and passed my interaction with you through the general filter “sinner!” and even got specific: thief, liar, fornicator, whatever? Human law or not, our judgements and actions or not, God is Just and we each get our own. I, for my part will aid if asked, and protect if necessary, but I will not judge, especially by specious references to an interpretation of Nature anthropomorphized into submission by any religion, including Catholic.
So if there is a “natural” law that applies, it is the natural law of a loving heart that sees no distinctions that catagorize one kind of “sinner” and makes them more equal than another kind of sinner. As for marriages? I invite you to do some work with dysfunctional families and see if heterosexuality by itself is any advertisement whatsoever for successful and thriving relationships or any certifiable degree of religious/spiritual accomplishment.
We are looking in the wrong area of need if we are looking to the fulfilment of dogma and scripture from simply the genders of relationships. Spiritual maturity, indeed goodness itself, is demostrated to be apart from religious affilitaiton whatever that religion claims for itself as creed or mission. Call up your Saints as examples if you wish, but show me another faith that has not their equal in Love of God or miracles, or whatnot. Basiclly, grow up! Tend your own green acre, if that is it’s color, and see if anyone is attracted to how well you tend your crops. There are many on here that proffer the moral equivalent of strains genetically modified by alterations misapplied under the auspices of fear, loathing, and ignorance. The “natural law” you espouse is the “law” of your own prejudice legitimized by third party standards distorted to the actual issue at hand. What you won’t face is yourself in it’s own greatness and grandeur; you choose personal pettiness instead and call it God.
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Tuno
*
The “natural law” you espouse is the “law” of your own prejudice legitimized by third party standards distorted to the actual issue at hand. What you won’t face is yourself in it’s own greatness and grandeur; you choose personal pettiness instead and call it God. *
Well that was certainly a mouthful of oratory!
However, you’ve missed the point entirely. Your early repulsion for homosexuality was natural. You have managed to overcome it by listening to thousands of soundbites over the last few decades. In the self-righteous fury of your post you allege that Christians hate the homosexual, when what they hate is the homosexual act. I have had homosexual friends over the years. And I have known homosexuals who have contributed a good deal to society. Several of them are already dead from AIDS.
I expect you could do some growing up of your own and return to the common sense of your youth. I hope its toward God that you now grow, rather than toward the vain notion that you have outgrown God and Christianity.
I invite you to do some work with dysfunctional families and see if heterosexuality by itself is any advertisement whatsoever for successful and thriving relationships or any certifiable degree of religious/spiritual accomplishment.
Oh, I see, and the world would be so much better off if heterosexuals would turn their children over to be reared by homosexuals. Would you like to document that, or are you just blowing hot air?
*
The “natural law” you espouse is the “law” of your own prejudice legitimized by third party standards distorted to the actual issue at hand. What you won’t face is yourself in it’s own greatness and grandeur; you choose personal pettiness instead and call it God. *
Well that was certainly a mouthful of oratory!
However, you’ve missed the point entirely. Your early repulsion for homosexuality was natural. You have managed to overcome it by listening to thousands of soundbites over the last few decades. In the self-righteous fury of your post you allege that Christians hate the homosexual, when what they hate is the homosexual act. I have had homosexual friends over the years. And I have known homosexuals who have contributed a good deal to society. Several of them are already dead from AIDS.
I expect you could do some growing up of your own and return to the common sense of your youth. I hope its toward God that you now grow, rather than toward the vain notion that you have outgrown God and Christianity.
I invite you to do some work with dysfunctional families and see if heterosexuality by itself is any advertisement whatsoever for successful and thriving relationships or any certifiable degree of religious/spiritual accomplishment.
Oh, I see, and the world would be so much better off if heterosexuals would turn their children over to be reared by homosexuals. Would you like to document that, or are you just blowing hot air?
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Tuno
So if there is a “natural” law that applies, it is the natural law of a loving heart that sees no distinctions that catagorize one kind of “sinner” and makes them more equal than another kind of sinner.
Would you mind explaining this remark? It is completely baffling.
This thread is not supposed to be about sinning, but about proving the natural law without reference to scripture.
As to “it is the natural law of a loving heart that sees no distinctions” I’m wondering what distinctions you are talking about? A loving heart does not want to see homosexuals do their thing and come up with AIDS and finally die a horrible death. It is an unloving heart that could care less, and actually champions the very act that has brought death to thousands of American men and women.
So if there is a “natural” law that applies, it is the natural law of a loving heart that sees no distinctions that catagorize one kind of “sinner” and makes them more equal than another kind of sinner.
Would you mind explaining this remark? It is completely baffling.
This thread is not supposed to be about sinning, but about proving the natural law without reference to scripture.
As to “it is the natural law of a loving heart that sees no distinctions” I’m wondering what distinctions you are talking about? A loving heart does not want to see homosexuals do their thing and come up with AIDS and finally die a horrible death. It is an unloving heart that could care less, and actually champions the very act that has brought death to thousands of American men and women.
A
Abu
Guest
Well said again, Charlemagne II, posts 1556/1557.
Such prejudices are totally at variance with the reality in the teaching of Christ. It is so easy to ignore the Master’s examples on how we fail to love God or neighbour in His warnings of sins which defile or befoul Jesus taught a parable ending with “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
On Peter asking for an explanation of the parable, Jesus warned: “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” (Mt 15: 8 -20). “From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity(fornication), theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile.” (Mk 7:21-23)
In particular, St. Paul condemns in the strongest terms the behavior of pagans who failed to recognize the one true God and lapsed into sexual perversity, as we read in Romans:
“1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” Sodomists beware.
The faithful love all, and offer truth to all. Those who would corrupt and pervert need to beware of God’s judgment.
How convenient and insincere, to go to Christ and the Sacred Scriptures of His Church only when it suits the feelings, likes, preferences and wishful thinking versus reason and the natural moral law, and is totally out of step with the facts of sound therapy, well established, which shows in a most caring and practical way the love of God and neighbour.
Such prejudices are totally at variance with the reality in the teaching of Christ. It is so easy to ignore the Master’s examples on how we fail to love God or neighbour in His warnings of sins which defile or befoul Jesus taught a parable ending with “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
On Peter asking for an explanation of the parable, Jesus warned: “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man.” (Mt 15: 8 -20). “From within people, from their hearts, come evil thoughts, unchastity(fornication), theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, folly. All these evils come from within and they defile.” (Mk 7:21-23)
In particular, St. Paul condemns in the strongest terms the behavior of pagans who failed to recognize the one true God and lapsed into sexual perversity, as we read in Romans:
“1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.” Sodomists beware.
The faithful love all, and offer truth to all. Those who would corrupt and pervert need to beware of God’s judgment.
T
Tuno
Guest
Abu, it is wonderful that we agree on so much, except for the intent of St Paul, who is not here to interview. Neither is Jesus, wondrous and arisen as He is. But they have both unwittingly left us in the hands of people less by far than at least one of them to interpret their intent by something which may be Absolutely Real, the Holy Spirit. But darned if the Holy Spirit isn’t exceptionally liberal in what is sanctioned as Truth by that auspices! As for the final say on Earth in such matters being held by the Papacy? Believe that if you like, but you are not even backed up in that by what appear to be most Catholics, judging by their actions. IOW, good luck.
As for natural law. when it comes down to it, there is but one: Actions Have Consequences. What we anthropomorphically make of those consequences from Bambi to Homosexuality, is our response to those consequences from whatever state of maturity from animalistic to Saintly or Transcendent we might individually be at. Opinions as to “God’s” take on these are just that. As the Sun shines equally on genocidal maniacs and saviors of civilizations, so does God. There is little to show in the way of direct intervention that the Catholic version of Deity has done any more than any other in this regard. We can say that the Universe is Just, and I feel that it is, but what that means is beyond my understanding. And there is no way that a Church that goes by two to four thousand year old obscure dictums translated through the veils of time and human minds will have much effect on my sense of that.
If you don’t like what homosexuals do, then that is your prerogative. However, I see no way that St. Paul or any book learning has precedence over Love or maturity in these matters as far as you dictating what others ought to do or not in this regard. God hasn’t stepped in and said anything about any of this, so I don’t see where we can usurp That Authority. Threads like this are provocations of the unreigned imagination as to private takes on Nature and morals.
Since it is clear that the homophobes and non sodomites on here largely have good intentions in their own minds according to their little lights, it would be good to note that as much harm is done by good intentions as by evil. You are welcome to turn that around on me, but I have been where you are, and am quite clear that my position now is an enlargement in perception from when I might have taken your stance. I was lucky: I got to meet real people who did real things and have real lives in these matters as distinct from third party mental acquisitions substituted for my own experience and reason. Neither of those can be too far off, as judging by my grades they were sharply honed in the Catholic school system, including being approached by homosexual and pedophiliac clergy.
Now do I think and feel that many things that people do to one another, even in the name of God and religion are reprehensible? Of course I do. But I will not interfere with nor judge what consenting adults do with each other. That is between themselves and God, and certainly I am not, and neither are you and such as your mind set included in that equation
As for natural law. when it comes down to it, there is but one: Actions Have Consequences. What we anthropomorphically make of those consequences from Bambi to Homosexuality, is our response to those consequences from whatever state of maturity from animalistic to Saintly or Transcendent we might individually be at. Opinions as to “God’s” take on these are just that. As the Sun shines equally on genocidal maniacs and saviors of civilizations, so does God. There is little to show in the way of direct intervention that the Catholic version of Deity has done any more than any other in this regard. We can say that the Universe is Just, and I feel that it is, but what that means is beyond my understanding. And there is no way that a Church that goes by two to four thousand year old obscure dictums translated through the veils of time and human minds will have much effect on my sense of that.
If you don’t like what homosexuals do, then that is your prerogative. However, I see no way that St. Paul or any book learning has precedence over Love or maturity in these matters as far as you dictating what others ought to do or not in this regard. God hasn’t stepped in and said anything about any of this, so I don’t see where we can usurp That Authority. Threads like this are provocations of the unreigned imagination as to private takes on Nature and morals.
Since it is clear that the homophobes and non sodomites on here largely have good intentions in their own minds according to their little lights, it would be good to note that as much harm is done by good intentions as by evil. You are welcome to turn that around on me, but I have been where you are, and am quite clear that my position now is an enlargement in perception from when I might have taken your stance. I was lucky: I got to meet real people who did real things and have real lives in these matters as distinct from third party mental acquisitions substituted for my own experience and reason. Neither of those can be too far off, as judging by my grades they were sharply honed in the Catholic school system, including being approached by homosexual and pedophiliac clergy.
Now do I think and feel that many things that people do to one another, even in the name of God and religion are reprehensible? Of course I do. But I will not interfere with nor judge what consenting adults do with each other. That is between themselves and God, and certainly I am not, and neither are you and such as your mind set included in that equation
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Tuno
*If you don’t like what homosexuals do, then that is your prerogative. However, I see no way that St. Paul or any book learning has precedence over Love or maturity in these matters as far as you dictating what others ought to do or not in this regard. God hasn’t stepped in and said anything about any of this, so I don’t see where we can usurp That Authority. Threads like this are provocations of the unreigned imagination as to private takes on Nature and morals. *
And yours is a private take that defies the history of civilized people.
Love and maturity are not defined by a man’s shoving his penis up another man’s anus. If that’s your idea of love, I’m afraid you are a good deal less evolved than you like to imagine.
*If you don’t like what homosexuals do, then that is your prerogative. However, I see no way that St. Paul or any book learning has precedence over Love or maturity in these matters as far as you dictating what others ought to do or not in this regard. God hasn’t stepped in and said anything about any of this, so I don’t see where we can usurp That Authority. Threads like this are provocations of the unreigned imagination as to private takes on Nature and morals. *
And yours is a private take that defies the history of civilized people.
Love and maturity are not defined by a man’s shoving his penis up another man’s anus. If that’s your idea of love, I’m afraid you are a good deal less evolved than you like to imagine.
G
GaryTaylor
Guest
Now do I think and feel that many things that people do to one another, even in the name of God and religion are reprehensible? Of course I do. But I will not interfere with nor judge what consenting adults do with each other. That is between themselves and God, and certainly I am not, and neither are you and such as your mind set included in that equation
This thinking is fringe. It no different than saying man should be able to do whatever he wants. Long as it doesn’t forceably interfer with the rights of others?
Its all a recipe for disaster. Then what do we do? Travel another 10-miles in the woods? Legalize dope? In case you haven’t noticed, were waste deep in quick sand now and still sinking. How about we go with God on this one?
How about this idea, How about we go with the Catholic Church which has been here since 69AD. Maybe, just maybe, they are right on this one.
This thinking is fringe. It no different than saying man should be able to do whatever he wants. Long as it doesn’t forceably interfer with the rights of others?
Its all a recipe for disaster. Then what do we do? Travel another 10-miles in the woods? Legalize dope? In case you haven’t noticed, were waste deep in quick sand now and still sinking. How about we go with God on this one?
How about this idea, How about we go with the Catholic Church which has been here since 69AD. Maybe, just maybe, they are right on this one.
J
John21652
Guest
Tuno, your profile tells us you are “*non-religious, not atheist, not theist, not agnostic”. *This post pretty well enlarges on what you beleive and hold to be true. Nothing!
Or so you pretend…
To demonstrate this to us you have used incredibly sweeping statements that border on the mendacious. For example, you sweep away millenia of human enquiry and set yourself up as being more wise and more mature than some of the most enlightened minds to have graced planet earth. You relegate Natural Law to being the sum of one single dictum invented by you! That is displaying your moral and mental blindness, if not arrogance. You deny God yet tell us you feel the ‘universe is just’. How so? Where does this ‘justice’ come from? Is it meted out deliberately, or does it just exist? Either way, you have indicated that deep down, even you harbour doubts about the benign nature of the universe and in the process you have once again pointed to the existence of a Natural Law. Justice is an aspect of deliberateness, a conformity to principles. This cannot be the case if there are no principles to adhere to. So, if the universe is just, by definition it must have certain guiding principles which make it so.
And as for labelling as ‘homophobes’ and ‘non-sodomites’ those who come to this thread in good faith to argue the thread topic, you display an uncharitableness that is again contradictory to the so called 'love" you espouse. The use of a misplaced term such as homophobia by the pro-homosexual lobby has worn thin and is now rendered almost meaningless, except for the light it shines on users of that epithet. You see, we don’t fear you, we fear for you.
I should also tell you that I too had marvellous grades won in schools of the Catholic system. I attended an all male Catholic boarding school and not one deviant catholic teacher or member of the clergy ever was in the place. They were all wonderful people and brilliant teachers. So, my first hand experience is apposite. To whose subjective experiences shall we give the greater weight? Yours, or mine? Or shall we solve this moral dilemma by appealing to Principles, which, despite your contradictory musings, you have indicated a belief in.
As I wrote in an earlier post, Tuno, the Natural Law has a habit of burying its undertakers…
J
John21652
Guest
Tuno
Love and maturity are not defined by a man’s shoving his penis up another man’s anus. If that’s your idea of love, I’m afraid you are a good deal less evolved than you like to imagine.
T
Tuno
Guest
Have you ever noticed, CII, that you take things to astonishing degrees of absurdity? I don’t know how to put it in a kinder way…
C
Charlemagne_II
Guest
Tuno
*Have you ever noticed, CII, that you take things to astonishing degrees of absurdity? I don’t know how to put it in a kinder way… *
Well, I haven’t noticed that kindness is your forte, though you like to proclaim eloquently that it is. I would rather say astonishing vanity is your strong suit … too strong to suit me.
Believe that if you like, but you are not even backed up in that by what appear to be most Catholics, judging by their actions.
I am with you on this one. Many Catholics, like many atheists, are singing loony tunes of late. However, what you failed to notice in your remarks is that the Catholic Church teaches contrary to what many Catholics think. Catholics, like the rest of society, have been constantly brainwashed by a largely anti-Catholic media and academia. The Church is fighting that war too on all fronts. We will win that war, not because we are strong, but because the Truth about human nature is stronger than anyone who can twist it out of shape.
*As for natural law. when it comes down to it, there is but one: Actions Have Consequences. *
I agree only with the last part of that sentence. AIDS is one such consequence.
*Have you ever noticed, CII, that you take things to astonishing degrees of absurdity? I don’t know how to put it in a kinder way… *
Well, I haven’t noticed that kindness is your forte, though you like to proclaim eloquently that it is. I would rather say astonishing vanity is your strong suit … too strong to suit me.
Believe that if you like, but you are not even backed up in that by what appear to be most Catholics, judging by their actions.
I am with you on this one. Many Catholics, like many atheists, are singing loony tunes of late. However, what you failed to notice in your remarks is that the Catholic Church teaches contrary to what many Catholics think. Catholics, like the rest of society, have been constantly brainwashed by a largely anti-Catholic media and academia. The Church is fighting that war too on all fronts. We will win that war, not because we are strong, but because the Truth about human nature is stronger than anyone who can twist it out of shape.
*As for natural law. when it comes down to it, there is but one: Actions Have Consequences. *
I agree only with the last part of that sentence. AIDS is one such consequence.
D
ddarko
Guest
Tuno
"As for natural law. when it comes down to it, there is but one: Actions Have Consequences."
Well same sex activity DOES have negative consequences. So even from your limited/flawed definition of natural law, homosexuality is contrary to natural law.
As Charlemagne II pointed out increased risk of AIDS and to add to that the increased risk of anal cancer and physical damage to the rectum and anus are pretty bad consequences. That is some “LOVE” you are trying to defend there
It goes to show how nature never intended sex to be between the same sex. It’s ultimately negative to the well being of the other person. Unfortunately, the media seems to forget these issues pretty easily.
God Bless
"As for natural law. when it comes down to it, there is but one: Actions Have Consequences."
Well same sex activity DOES have negative consequences. So even from your limited/flawed definition of natural law, homosexuality is contrary to natural law.
As Charlemagne II pointed out increased risk of AIDS and to add to that the increased risk of anal cancer and physical damage to the rectum and anus are pretty bad consequences. That is some “LOVE” you are trying to defend there
It goes to show how nature never intended sex to be between the same sex. It’s ultimately negative to the well being of the other person. Unfortunately, the media seems to forget these issues pretty easily.
God Bless
T
Tuno
Guest
So is “salvation.” And?
A
Abu
Guest
Reality exists in understanding the meaning of true love
- The absurdity that God supports homomania and homosexual activity, is easily dispelled as is the fantasy that there is a mere “version” of God and “obscure dictums” in the Christ’s own Church.
When you are ready to listen and to follow Jesus, the Son of God, – and no other man even seriously claimed to be God – you will heed Him: “And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words…shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment than for that city.” (Mt 10: 14-15). Not only is this perversion condemned in the Old Testament (Gen 19) but more than once Saint Paul lists this sin among those which will exclude someone from Heaven.
God was very clear: “Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire . . .” (Jude 7). - The “provocations” come from those who distort Christ’s teaching, reason and the natural moral law and replace them with feelings, likes, preferences and wishful thinking based on delusions.
- Not judging “what consenting adults do with each other” is the epitome of abandonment to chaos – the bane of today’s world. Every action is to be judged against truth.
Apart from commanding the woman found in adultery to “go and sin no more” the Christ commanded us to
“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).
“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).
“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).
The whole structure of homomania is built on delusion.
I
inocente
Guest
Hang on partner, what may be true in your country isn’t necessarily true in others.
The media and schools in this country are run by Catholics, because pretty well everyone here is Catholic. The supermarkets have displays of condoms, sold and bought by Catholics. Many people here go against the Church’s teaching, presumably to avoid AIDS or unwanted babies. Likewise, I’ll repeat the statistic that two thirds of people here approved the change to allow homosexual marriage (and that’s what it’s called in the law, not just civil union).
Not all Catholics agree that the Church is always, has always, and will always be right. We can see that by just looking around CAF. When the teaching of the Church on sexual morals convinces all Catholics, the rest of the world might start listening.
All of which is just to say that independently minded “loony tune” Catholics may not agree that it is they that have been brainwashed.
C
colmcille1
Guest
Hi inocente, my friend,Hang on partner, what may be true in your country isn’t necessarily true in others.
The media and schools in this country are run by Catholics, because pretty well everyone here is Catholic. The supermarkets have displays of condoms, sold and bought by Catholics. Many people here go against the Church’s teaching, presumably to avoid AIDS or unwanted babies. Likewise, I’ll repeat the statistic that two thirds of people here approved the change to allow homosexual marriage (and that’s what it’s called in the law, not just civil union).
Not all Catholics agree that the Church is always, has always, and will always be right. We can see that by just looking around CAF. When the teaching of the Church on sexual morals convinces all Catholics, the rest of the world might start listening.
All of which is just to say that independently minded “loony tune” Catholics may not agree that it is they that have been brainwashed.
I think, in fairness, that what CII was getting at was the fact of a “consumerised Catholicism”, if you like. It is rampant here in Ireland.
It is a comfort zone of apathy: the media do influence many nominal Catholics via appeals to a “be nice to this group which is our flavour-of-the-month persecuted few”.
I know this may sound like hard-bitten cynicism but I comment from a knowledgeable position. It twists true Faith teaching into a secularist imperative of “equality” argument.
In its broad sweep of journalistic logic it embraces all wavering Catholics and outright anti-Catholics. Our forum colleague Tuno, unfortunately, would seem to fall into the latter group. As another poster succinctly put it: we fear for him.
True catholics do not fear the joy of His teaching. They embrace it.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
I
inocente
Guest
Hi colmcille, can I get your autograph then?
I can only remember knowing a handful of actors, one of whom is a good friend who lives a few kilometers away.I’m not sure about imbuing homosexuals with stereotypical traits either. But here’s a story to see if you could play a character from my youth. I remember a bar frequented by burly market traders where there was a gay regular. He over-acted to an extraordinary degree (extremely effeminate, pink jump suit, etc.) but was a very likable guy and the market traders took him under their wing. Any new comer who made fun of him or sneered would be taken outside for fisticuffs. That was back when most gays hid in corners, and despite his antics he had a real air of vulnerability, borderline medical. Play him as a victim of the prejudices of the times but avoid sentimentality, he wasn’t an angel.
I wouldn’t want to go back to those days, relativism has its plus points.
I
inocente
Guest
Fair enough, but there are Catholics who do not believe that His teaching is reflected in some of the teaching of the Church, and (to an outsider) the Church seems to weakly give in, being neither willing to fight its corner nor update its teaching.
Frankly, there are times when the Church does not appear to be convinced of its own position on these matters, and an outsider can get confused about who exactly are the true Catholics - those who go along with the Church no matter what, or those who want change.
Well, this outsider is anyway.
C
colmcille1
Guest
Hi inocente,Hi colmcille, can I get your autograph then?
I’m not sure about imbuing homosexuals with stereotypical traits either. But here’s a story to see if you could play a character from my youth. I remember a bar frequented by burly market traders where there was a gay regular. He over-acted to an extraordinary degree (extremely effeminate, pink jump suit, etc.) but was a very likable guy and the market traders took him under their wing. Any new comer who made fun of him or sneered would be taken outside for fisticuffs. That was back when most gays hid in corners, and despite his antics he had a real air of vulnerability, borderline medical. Play him as a victim of the prejudices of the times but avoid sentimentality, he wasn’t an angel.
I wouldn’t want to go back to those days, relativism has its plus points.
Thank you for your reply.
An interesting acting role to be sure!
I think that what has been important in my journey back to Faith has been to challenge my own fears of obedience.
If I change that which is in error within me and it leads me to a joyous place I wish to share this experience with others. But it is the objective process that I share not the minutiae of my own subjective journey. IOW, I see the beautiful potentiality of every human to follow Him. And I think this leads us to perhaps seeing where a chasm of misunderstanding lies: between the active participants in His teaching and those who do not subscribe to said teaching. So how do we reconcile these two groups? The latter group’s desire to belong is seen as a broader reaching out to Him.
No political party, sports organisation, trade union, can answer man’s search as completely as Him.
But the answers don’t come ready-assembled. You must work at them.
In this prolix thread there have been to date a vast array of ideas expressed.
If we travel beyond the ego we can see that only a true recognisance of His plan can ultimately answer all our questions.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
- Status