Can homosexuality not be a sin if

[MonicaC]

oat soda:

there is absolutely no evidence that people are born with a sexual orientation. the latest evidence shows that most people who practice homosexuality become heterosexual life and that the environment is the controling factor.

You know what I have known quite a few people who have been or had homosexual feelings since day one, and one imparticulor that really suffers from this but still refuse to ast on it because he knows it would be a sin. I find it amazing that there are people who seem to act like they are all knowing and try to asume something they have no idea about.

2nd, since lust is a disordered desire to have sex, and homosexuality is considered disordered, then objectivley speaking, homosexual desire is always sinful and evil. this is because homosexuality desire is inheirently evil. sexual attraction between heterosexuals is not inheriently evil. it depends on the circumstances. there is no scientific evidence. these scientists have agendas and already had their minds made up before they looked at the data. this is very common in academia and in the sciences.

The same as above, please try not to judge others if you do not know what others are feeling.

 

[Ghosty]

Two gay guys, arms about each others shoulders, hip to hip, walking along the beach at sunset? Is this the sort of things two guys who are just friends do? Or anyone who is not romantically involved?

Minus the gay part, such behavior would be perfectly normal between two straight men in many cultures. It’s all about the context and the intent of the people acting. If two homosexual men prefer the company of men, and treat their relationship as a close friendship, doing their best to keep all elements of lust away, then I see nothing wrong with a close relationship.

In fact, people with homosexual inclinations are far more likely to be able to identify with other people with homosexual inclinations, and to form strong personal bonds that don’t cross the line into sexual relationships. I’m a male, but I have a much easier time relating and getting along with females in most cases, and I could certainly live with a female with whom I had a deep, personal bond with, including cuddling and and such without any crossing over into sexual desires (in fact I HAVE lived in such circumstances). So long as the boundary is established, it’s not espescially difficult for two adults to live in such a manner.

If two people are living together and insist that they are not sexually intimate, nor are they pursuing such intimacy, I see no reason to judge otherwise whether they are two males, two females, or a male and female. I am not so presumptuous to be scandalized by such living arrangements, and I’m willing to give people the benefit of the doubt on moral grounds. I will give them my (name removed by moderator)ut, explaining that sexual relations outside of marriage are indeed sinful, and leave the rest up to their souls and God. In such a case, being scandalized would be a sign of moral presumption and weakness on MY part, not on the part of the people living together. How they deal with my scandalization might reflect on their moral state, but it is NOT my place to make demands on a platonic living arrangement just because I’m too morally weak and presumptuous to accept it at face value. So long as they are not callously flaunting it with the intent to cause me moral distress, I see no culpability on their part for my scandalization.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Valtiel:

There is no sex involved…
I get this a lot actually that if a same sex couple go through everything in love except sex, then it’s okay…
What in the world do I say to this???

this makes no sense, it’s like playing with fire…if they are hugging and kissing and anything else then it is not ok

Sexual desire of another person (coveting a neighbors wife) can be sinful.

Put it this way, I am a happily married woman, If I happened to be around another man whom I found attractive and found myself actually *desiring *that other man I would remove him from my life as much as possible and do some serious soul searching. I have been around plenty of men who were attractive yet did not desire them. Playing with fire is not the path to a holy life and is not good in the formation of one’s conscience.

People of homosexual tendencies have a huge cross to bear, we should encourage people in our lives who are homosexual to live a life of celibacy, All people outside of marriage should.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Valtiel:

So then kissing your mother is sexual!?!?!?!

Seriously kissing may lead to sex, but it’s not sexual activity itself…
Not to my knowledge anyway…

If it causes sexual arousal, it is forplay for sex, it is a sexual act.

 

[ceasar]

you guys don’t get it…its a matter of the heart…if a man loves another man like he would love another woman…((romantically))…like love that was intended for a woman…but a man perverts it for another man…regardless of any action…it is sin…no if’s,an’s or but’s…

Ceasar

 

[oat_soda]

You know what I have known quite a few people who have been or had homosexual feelings since day one, and one imparticulor that really suffers from this but still refuse to ast on it because he knows it would be a sin.

i’ve had lots of feelings since day one. many of them were sinful: lust, jealousy, pride, glutony… etc. does this mean it’s not sinful? i’m not the one calling it a sin, the catholic church is.

**2351 ***Lust *is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. **2358 …**This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

right out of the catechism, it says that disordered desire for sex is LUST!!! homosexual desire is disordered, i.e. it is lust and is a sin. you don’t have a problem with me but with reality and what the church teaches. life is a test or trial for all of us, even homosexuals.

The same as above, please try not to judge others if you do not know what others are feeling.

do you know what seperates us from animals? an intellect. if our intellect does not control our feelings, we behave as animals, much like homosexuals do. feelings make people do all sorts of stupid things, like rape, murder, theft, drug use, …etc. does this mean we shouldn’t judge their actions?

 

[Fortiterinre]

Visit David Morrison’s website:

davidmorrison.typepad.com/sed_contra/

He has talked about this a lot, and it comes up on the forums a surprising amount. This turns into a “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” type of wrong question. The goal of the Christian life is not to careen within millimeters of the most enjoyable sins, or the most natural-for-us sins, or the most socially acceptable sins, etc. I also think the Courage website talks about this kind of stuff in more detail, and believe me, Courage isn’t telling people “kissing is okay.” Seeking or giving even non-physical intimacy that isn’t based on true, holy friendship is certainly not without problems.

 

[MonicaC]

oat soda:

i’ve had lots of feelings since day one. many of them were sinful: lust, jealousy, pride, glutony… etc. does this mean it’s not sinful? i’m not the one calling it a sin, the catholic church is. right out of the catechism, it says that disordered desire for sex is LUST!!! homosexual desire is disordered, i.e. it is lust and is a sin. you don’t have a problem with me but with reality and what the church teaches. life is a test or trial for all of us, even homosexuals. do you know what seperates us from animals? an intellect. if our intellect does not control our feelings, we behave as animals, much like homosexuals do. feelings make people do all sorts of stupid things, like rape, murder, theft, drug use, …etc. does this mean we shouldn’t judge their actions?

I am not saying that the homosexual act is not a sin it most diffently is, just a lust is most diffently a sin. What I am saying is who are you to sit there so self rightious and judge those who are suffering from this. They are having a hard time as it is and they need our help. Yes OUR help. so please put your own thoughts of others aside for one minute and try to look at through their eyes!

What I am saying is that there are many people who would call them selfs homosexual but do not act on the urges to this.

 

[YinYangMom]

oat soda:

i’ve had lots of feelings since day one. many of them were sinful: lust, jealousy, pride, glutony… etc. does this mean it’s not sinful? i’m not the one calling it a sin, the catholic church is. right out of the catechism, it says that disordered desire for sex is LUST!!! homosexual desire is disordered, i.e. it is lust and is a sin. you don’t have a problem with me but with reality and what the church teaches. life is a test or trial for all of us, even homosexuals. do you know what seperates us from animals? an intellect. if our intellect does not control our feelings, we behave as animals, much like homosexuals do. feelings make people do all sorts of stupid things, like rape, murder, theft, drug use, …etc. does this mean we shouldn’t judge their actions?

Speaking of the Catechism:

**2357 **Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

**2358 ****The number **of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Even the Church cannot state with certainty whether or not people are ‘born into’ homosexuality. Seems to me, as an earlier poster stated, that it doesn’t matter whether or not we ‘know’ for certain where one’s ‘tendencies’ toward same sex attraction derives. What matters is that acting upon such tendencies is sinful, but the person with the tendencies are to be treated respectfully, that they are called to carry a particularly heavy cross and the rest of us should be doing everything we can to help them carry that cross.

 

[AuntMartha]

MonicaC:

I am not saying that the homosexual act is not a sin it most diffently is, just a lust is most diffently a sin. What I am saying is who are you to sit there so self rightious and judge those who are suffering from this. They are having a hard time as it is and they need our help. Yes OUR help. so please put your own thoughts of others aside for one minute and try to look at through their eyes!

What I am saying is that there are many people who would call them selfs homosexual but do not act on the urges to this.

Need our help with what? Approving of gay sex?

A Catholic who follows Church teaching can never approve of gay sex. One should never act mean and nasty towards a gay person just for being gay. But being kind to someone doesn’t mean approving of their sin. And one should definitely not expect Catholics or in particular, the Catholic Church, to say, “Oh, you’re having a tough time in this life because of your gayness, so go ahead, have gay sex. It’s okay.”

 

[YinYangMom]

javelin:

I think this is the best explanation thus far, and one I completely agree with. It touches on the foundation of WHY homosexual acts are sinful, and uses a holistic approach to the nature and morality of human sexuality, and skillfully avoids the pit-trap of whether or not homosexuality is genetic (it’s a pit trap because it really doesn’t matter).

Thank you, YinYangMom.

Peace,
javelin

You’re welcome, Javelin.

Having read the catechism’s teaching on this, particular the part that tells us the number of people with this inclination is not neglible and then calls on us to treat these people with respect and dignity really hit me close to home.

Because of the situation with my daughter’s friend I’ve done a lot of praying and a lot of reading about the Catholic response to the number of homosexuals in our society.

Some people would suggest I forbid my child to continue her friendship with this girl because of the ‘scandal’ associating with her could bring, but from what I’m reading in the catechism and in vatican documents I’m not finding the Church telling me to have her run the other way as fast as she can and as far away as she can. Instead, I’m seeing the Church call on my daughter to help her friend accept her particular cross and that’s the approach I’m taking with her. I’m trying to give her the conviction and resources she’ll need to help support her friend to lead a celibate and chaste life.

Since they’ve known each other since first grade there is a lot of trust between them. The girl is a great kid, her family is as straight as can be (though not religious), and the girl is already suffering ridicule from students and discrimination from teachers, making her educational experience very stressful. She does not wish to stand out like a sore thumb, she’s not rebelling, she’s just trying to be true to herself, to how she feels inside. Unfortunately, because she’s in a public school environment the advice she receives from counselors is very politically correct, which, in my opinion is not helping this girl much at all. My daughter’s influence may be the one which helps save this girl some anguish and bring her to Catholicism, I don’t know. But I do believe God brought this girl into our circle of friends/associates for a reason. I pray we do not fail her.

Peace to you as well.
YYM

 

[YinYangMom]

AuntMartha:

Need our help with what? Approving of gay sex?

A Catholic who follows Church teaching can never approve of gay sex. One should never act mean and nasty towards a gay person just for being gay. But being kind to someone doesn’t mean approving of their sin. And one should definitely not expect Catholics or in particular, the Catholic Church, to say, “Oh, you’re having a tough time in this life because of your gayness, so go ahead, have gay sex. It’s okay.”

No, AuntMartha, they don’t need our help by approving their sexual lifestyle. They need our help in understanding what it means in God’s grand design for them to be afflicted with this disorder. Even the catechism does not address the homosexual as a mistake, yet many Christians treat homosexuals as if they are revolting and beneath the dignity of man. This is not the way to save them, in my opinion.

Being kind to homosexuals does not mean we approve of their sins. It is an invitation for them to trust us so that once the trust is established we can share the Truth with them in a kind and compassionate manner. We can then offer our support in helping them to live the life God has planned for them.

The only support system they have now is from secular society which is telling them they’re ok even if they sin. We need to counter that culture by telling them they’re OK, but their behavior is not - then we need to follow that through with instruction, guidance, support and love to help them come to terms with their calling. It’s not what they’re used to hearing. They’re used to being told they’re damned to hell or that they’re AOK as is. They need to get used to being invited into the Church by offering their cross in this life for the souls in purgatory…show them there is a purpose to being afflicted with this condition, the purpose just isn’t what they’ve been told so far - to act upon their desires with no consequences. The purpose is to grow closer to God by living the chaste and celibate life.

 

[buffalo]

YinYangMom:

It has nothing to do with what I think or what you think…science is science, and while there are scientists ready to ‘prove’ it is not biological, there are scientists ready to prove otherwise. Dear Abby named a couple just the other day:

" If I did not believe with all my heart that what I wrote is true, I wouldn’t have put my thoughts on paper. Homosexuality is simply a variant of sexual orientation. Those who claim it is “unnatural” should direct their attention to Dr. Joan Roughgarden, a biologist at Stanford University with a Ph.D. from Harvard, who states that more than 300 vertebrate species have been found to practice homosexuality. (A visit to any zoo might confirm it.) And while one gene may not be responsible for this variant, Italian researcher Andrea Camperio-Ciani of the University of Padua notes that research findings point to there being more than one “gay gene,” and that the genetic factors linked to homosexuality in men are also linked to increased fertility in women.
I stand by my reply."

Dear Abby, Chicago Tribune, May 11, 2005

Now all this really tells me is MAN does not know definitively one way or another - yet. But apparently there is scientific evidence supporting both claims.

I would hardly accept that animals being homosexual somehow supports it in man. Man is a higher animal that can overcome base instincts.

I think the research of endocrine disrupters and early childhood factors should be exhausted. And we have to rule out environmental factors that play a part in the womb also, before we could ever take the leap that God is behind them being born that way.

 

[buffalo]

MonicaC:

I am not saying that the homosexual act is not a sin it most diffently is, just a lust is most diffently a sin. What I am saying is who are you to sit there so self rightious and judge those who are suffering from this. They are having a hard time as it is and they need our help. Yes OUR help. so please put your own thoughts of others aside for one minute and try to look at through their eyes!

What I am saying is that there are many people who would call them selfs homosexual but do not act on the urges to this.

If they truly wanted help they would ask not push the “gay” rights agenda. They would seek the genesis of the problem but most importantly realize that they will need help from God and God alone to overcome this condition. Surrendering to society’s push will not solve anything longterm.

 

[tuopaolo]

Valtiel:

I suppose kissing, holding hands, being intimate you know all that relationship stuff just minus any and all sexual activity…

That would all be sinful. Any expression of homosexuality whatsoever is sinful – even when it involves no touching. Indulging in what is a perverse affection even when the indulgence does not involve any touching but merely conversation or gifts or what have you, is seriously sinful. It would be the same if someone suffered from pedophilia or bestiality. The expression of or indlugence in a perverse affection is always sinful.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

buffalo:

If they truly wanted help they would ask not push the “gay” rights agenda. They would seek the genesis of the problem but most importantly realize that they will need help from God and God alone to overcome this condition. Surrendering to society’s push will not solve anything longterm.

How many people who struggle with same sex attraction actually push the “gay rights agenda”?

I don’t know either… but I am guessing that most don’t. Just like everything else in life, the loud minority arrogantly speak for all. We only see and hear from those who want to be seen and heard.

I’m sure there are many people with homosexual tendencies who want our help… but they rightly fear making themselves know for fear of judgement and persecution.

We are called to love (help, support,etc) all of our fellow human beings. We are all sinners of one type or another. We need to focus on helping the people who *want *it and not judge all based on a small minority of vocal ones.

Malia

 

[ThornGenX]

Valtiel:

There is no sex involved…
I get this a lot actually that if a same sex couple go through everything in love except sex, then it’s okay…
What in the world do I say to this???

At the very least this would be a near occasion of sin and should be avoided by someone who wants to live a chaste life according to the teachings of the Church as written in the Catholic Catechism. I say this as someone who turned away from and with the Lords help and grace will stay away from the homosexual lifestyle.

 

[YinYangMom]

buffalo:

I would hardly accept that animals being homosexual somehow supports it in man. Man is a higher animal that can overcome base instincts.

I think the research of endocrine disrupters and early childhood factors should be exhausted. And we have to rule out environmental factors that play a part in the womb also, before we could ever take the leap that God is behind them being born that way.

I wasn’t claiming to support the research cited…I was just showing that research has and is being conducted by rather prominent scientists who are coming up with what they consider ‘evidence’ of genetic disposition to homosexuality.

I still hold the position that the Church herself does not make the distinction therefore I’m not attempting to. As the Church directs, I am doing the best I can to focus on the distinction about just what to do once one ‘discovers’ one has a homosexual tendency. I get the impression that’s what the Church is asking of us.

 

[MonicaC]

AuntMartha:

Need our help with what? Approving of gay sex?

A Catholic who follows Church teaching can never approve of gay sex. One should never act mean and nasty towards a gay person just for being gay. But being kind to someone doesn’t mean approving of their sin. And one should definitely not expect Catholics or in particular, the Catholic Church, to say, “Oh, you’re having a tough time in this life because of your gayness, so go ahead, have gay sex. It’s okay.”

I am sorry but where in my thread did I say that the church needs to approve of gay sex! What I am saying that those who do Suffer from this tendence and have never acted on it, they are trying to live a life that is like yours and mine, this is if you are living a life of chasity.

What I am trying to say is lets not assume that just because the great media trys to project this image that all homosexuals are active. This just is not true. So lets get off our high throne and try not to be so judgemental on everyone.

 

[MonicaC]

buffalo:

If they truly wanted help they would ask not push the “gay” rights agenda. They would seek the genesis of the problem but most importantly realize that they will need help from God and God alone to overcome this condition. Surrendering to society’s push will not solve anything longterm.

Hello Buffalo,

Yes there are quit a bit of homosexuals that do this but what I am saying is there are also those who don’t. All they are trying to do is live a good christin life, away from this active homosexual lifestyle. All I am trying to say is lets try to be understanding to THESE people who ARE living the NON active homosexual lifestyle. We are asked to hate the sin not the person. And is it a sin if there is no sex involed, is this not what the OP was asking? All I am saying to the OP is that as long as the person is not acting in ANY way on there tendences then no there is not a sin being commited. But in the case the OP presented to us I would say that the person or person he is speaking of are still acting on their tendences!