Can homosexuality not be a sin if

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Valtiel:
There is no sex involved…
I get this a lot actually that if a same sex couple go through everything in love except sex, then it’s okay…
What in the world do I say to this???
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Well, no sex involved means even the sex that goes on in the mind - no fanticizing about it, no feeding the disorder even on this level.

It seems in all likelyhood, they’d be placing themselves in a permanant state of “near occasion of sin” just by trying to live with someone who they have a disordered sexual attraction to. Sounds innocent on the surface, but I’d have to say this would be a very bad tightrope to try to walk - *not okay *in my book.

DustinsDad
 
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MonicaC:
Suffer from this tendence and have never acted on it, they are trying to live a life that is like yours and mine, this is if you are living a life of chasity.

What I am trying to say is lets not assume that just because the great media trys to project this image that all homosexuals are active. This just is not true. So lets get off our high throne and try not to be so judgemental on everyone…
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I don’t think it’s commpassionate to tell these folks it’s okay to live together and do everything but “have” homosexual sex. That’s like telling someone who’s addicted to porn to keep the porn in his house and just don’t look at it or think about it.

Makes you feel good, because you think you’re being compassionate and didn’t have to say anything too “judgemental”.

But in reality, you are really telling these folks to go ahead and remain in the near occaision of sin - and for anyone trying to be chaste, the near occaision of sin is not a good place to be.

DustinsDad
 
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MonicaC:
I am sorry but where in my thread did I say that the church needs to approve of gay sex! What I am saying that those who do Suffer from this tendence and have never acted on it, they are trying to live a life that is like yours and mine, this is if you are living a life of chasity.

What I am trying to say is lets not assume that just because the great media trys to project this image that all homosexuals are active. This just is not true. So lets get off our high throne and try not to be so judgemental on everyone.
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Your opening statement was “Need our help with what? Approving of gay sex?” I was speaking about the ‘our’ part not the Church’s part. You never suggested the Church should approve of gay sex, I didn’t think I had suggested that you had. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

In any case, the way you put your position in this post indicates we are in agreement. I absolutely agree that there are more homosexuals trying to live with this condition as they should and those are the one we should treat with compassion and support.

I also agree that because there are so many vocal Christians out there damning the homosexuals it appears as though all Christians are sitting on that high throne of judgement, and yet, as we see here in the forums and in the writings of the Catholic Church that just is not the case for Catholics.

It’s image distortion on both parts induced and promoted by the media. Yet another wall to break down before there can be peace and true conversion.
 
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DustinsDad:
I don’t think it’s commpassionate to tell these folks it’s okay to live together and do everything but “have” homosexual sex. That’s like telling someone who’s addicted to porn to keep the porn in his house and just don’t look at it or think about it.

Makes you feel good, because you think you’re being compassionate and didn’t have to say anything too “judgemental”.

But in reality, you are really telling these folks to go ahead and remain in the near occaision of sin - and for anyone trying to be chaste, the near occaision of sin is not a good place to be.

DustinsDad
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There seems to be some mistaken identity here…

Valtiel is the person who started this thread and asked about a couple doing everything except having sex…

MonicaC is the person who spoke about those homosexuals who are trying everything they can to live a celebate life - who are not living together, who are not dating, etc… She’s asking us to not lump those homosexuals in with ‘all’ homosexuals when discussing homosexuality in general.

At least that’s how it appears to me.

Peace.
 
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DustinsDad:
I don’t think it’s commpassionate to tell these folks it’s okay to live together and do everything but “have” homosexual sex. That’s like telling someone who’s addicted to porn to keep the porn in his house and just don’t look at it or think about it.

Makes you feel good, because you think you’re being compassionate and didn’t have to say anything too “judgemental”.

But in reality, you are really telling these folks to go ahead and remain in the near occaision of sin - and for anyone trying to be chaste, the near occaision of sin is not a good place to be.

DustinsDad
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I guess I am not communicating to you guys right. If you read the last part of my last thread I said
But in the case the OP presented to us I would say that the person or person he is speaking of are still acting on their tendences!
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I also Said
Suffer from this tendence and have never acted on it, they are trying to live a life that is like yours and mine, this is if you are living a life of chasity.
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When I said this I said that There are people who are homosexual and do DO NOT and I repeat DO NOT ACT ON IT. In other words these people are not living with other homosexuls they do not have sex with any one all they are doing is trying to live a good christin life, all while trying to carry their cross the same way you and I do. I am not promoting the homosexual life style, I am how ever being compasonate to those who are trying to live a life of truth.

I hope this was clear!
 
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YinYangMom:
There seems to be some mistaken identity here…

Valtiel is the person who started this thread and asked about a couple doing everything except having sex…

MonicaC is the person who spoke about those homosexuals who are trying everything they can to live a celebate life - who are not living together, who are not dating, etc… She’s asking us to not lump those homosexuals in with ‘all’ homosexuals when discussing homosexuality in general.

At least that’s how it appears to me.

Peace.
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Thank you Yin Yang at least someone understands me. i thought I was going crazy!😃
 
Hello all,

I agree that it really does not matter if someone is “born that way” or not. However, I am puzzled when people say they have been that way from day one. Some environmental factors affect us before we are at an age where we have a “continuous memory”. We who are on the outside don’t know if someone we think was born that way was molested or had some other event take place that was “burned” into their psyche before they were at an age where they could say they remember things. For example, I teach school. There was a first grade student whose primary care givers were his mom and uncle. Mom was a “butchy” lesbian (acts like a man) uncle was a feminine gay man. So this little boy was EXTREMELY effeminate. Some might say that it was genetic, but it is also possible that living with such extreme role reversals in his environment confused him as to “proper” gender roles.

How many others live like this, for example?

Just my thoughts.
 
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MonicaC:
Hello Buffalo,

Yes there are quit a bit of homosexuals that do this but what I am saying is there are also those who don’t. All they are trying to do is live a good christin life, away from this active homosexual lifestyle. All I am trying to say is lets try to be understanding to THESE people who ARE living the NON active homosexual lifestyle. We are asked to hate the sin not the person. And is it a sin if there is no sex involed, is this not what the OP was asking? All I am saying to the OP is that as long as the person is not acting in ANY way on there tendences then no there is not a sin being commited. But in the case the OP presented to us I would say that the person or person he is speaking of are still acting on their tendences!
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We love chaste homosexuals and non-chaste alike. We don’t like or condone the “gay” lifestyle or the agenda. It’s not being on a high horse at all. This push threatens the family as we all can see.
 
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Valtiel:
There is no sex involved…
I get this a lot actually that if a same sex couple go through everything in love except sex, then it’s okay…
What in the world do I say to this???
Click to expand...
The Presidentt of our United States redfined the phrase “Sexual Activiy”

Bill Clinton was instrumental is getting almost all teen agers to believe that Oral Sex was not real sex at all. So now high school kids do that saying they are NOT having sex.

The homosexual sexual activity is not normal heterosexual sex. It is abnormal. It involves oral sex and that one other kind - not normal.
 
Even the Church cannot state with certainty whether or not people are ‘born into’ homosexuality
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the whole problem here is the insane idea that somehow people have a sexual orientation that is independent of us being male and female. the church does not support this view. if it did, the church couldn’t consider it a sin because we would be acting according to our nature how God created us.

the obvious fact is people are born male or female according to sense perceptible physical differences. we can know first hand if someone is male or female unlike these bogus “gay genes”. the more we can know something as true by our senses, the truer it is. the gay gene theory is based on many assumptions that are impossible to prove.

objectively using common sense, we are genetically made for the opposite sex. this is exactly why homosexual desire is always disordered and evil because it is contrary to God’s natural law.

i have a problem of people treating homosexuals like they are any different then any other sinner which we all are. if we start defining people according to their sexual perversions, what is stopping us from defining masturbators as egosexuals or perverts as beastisexuals? all this does is convince these people that they are different then everyone else and we should feel sorry for them because it’s not their fault when it is entirely their fault. this just perpetuates this social disease.
 
oat soda:
i have a problem of people treating homosexuals like they are any different then any other sinner which we all are. if we start defining people according to their sexual perversions, what is stopping us from defining masturbators as egosexuals or perverts as beastisexuals? all this does is convince these people that they are different then everyone else and we should feel sorry for them because it’s not their fault when it is entirely their fault. this just perpetuates this social disease.
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Pluralism! it’s politically correct. - Reflections on Pluralism

Pluralism, the dominant mode of social organization in the modern West, dictates that all social groups — religions, ethnicities, languages — are necessarily equal, or at least of indeterminable value, and therefore ought to be equally tolerated and even fostered by the state. It is founded in the denial of the Church’s claim to universal and unique veracity, and as such must be considered as antithetical to the Catholic faith. However, most Catholics today accept pluralism as a given, or even support it as a positive good. Often this support is predicated upon the mistaken notion that any denial of pluralism requires forced conversions and public burnings — a notion which even a brief perusal of Catholic teaching will rapidly dispel. Pluralism, however, is not an antidote to pseudo-Gothic fits of violent prosyletism, but an effective remedy for any public presence of religion in the state at all, and any serious analysis of the theory will reveal that it cannot be reconciled with Catholic social or even dogmatic teaching.

…
Pluralism is simply indifferentism extended to the public square. The two are morally equivalent; indeed, they are simply two sides of the same coin…
[more...](http://www.seattlecatholic.com/index.html)
 
This is something I never understood, even if they (homosexuals) remain virgins and live alone, do they sin if they dont behave like normal people?

By normal people I mean the clothes they wear, hairdoos or their voice.

They have to remain sexually pure, do they have to change their personality too?

(By clothes they wear I dont mean something particularly scandalous, most gays Ive known have good taste in fact)
 
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Asking:
This is something I never understood, even if they (homosexuals) remain virgins and live alone, do they sin if they dont behave like normal people?

By normal people I mean the clothes they wear, hairdoos or their voice.

They have to remain sexually pure, do they have to change their personality too?

(By clothes they wear I dont mean something particularly scandalous, most gays Ive known have good taste in fact)
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Hi Asking!

As I undertstand it, all of this is irrelevant. All of your examples would require the homosexual to become closer to an individual than he is allowed to be.
 
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buffalo:
We love chaste homosexuals and non-chaste alike. We don’t like or condone the “gay” lifestyle or the agenda. It’s not being on a high horse at all. This push threatens the family as we all can see.
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Hello, I know that you really think that I am nuts but I know that the Catholic Church is simpathitic to those who are suffuring from such tendences. There are programs that are in the church and in line with Rome who HELP those who feel this way. I know that you guys are pretty upset that I did say that we need to help these people on there journey to God. But I can assure that I am not alone in this thought but there are many out there right now who are helping instead of condeming them to hell. Yeah go figure?:rolleyes: But there are Homosexuals who are living chaste lives and the do need our help.

Well here is a website incase you would like to see for yourselvs.

couragerc.net/
 
Bill Clinton was instrumental is getting almost all teen agers to believe that Oral Sex was not real sex at all. So now high school kids do that saying they are NOT having sex.
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This isn’t really dealing with the thread, but it made me laugh none-the-less. I think you’re giving FAR too much credit to Bill Clinton, and possibly FAR too much credit to teen-agers in thinking that they actually pay attention to the **** a president actually does.

I can say from experience that the whole “oral sex isn’t sex” thing FAR predates the actions of Bill Clinton, and was in fact a huge factor in all teenage relationships I was familiar with in middleschool and highschool. It’s far more likely that Bill Clinton’s actions reflect the attitude of our society, not that he was instrumental in shaping the attitude of our society. Bill Clinton WISHES he had that kind of power 😛
 
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MonicaC:
I guess I am not communicating to you guys right. If you read the last part of my last thread I said!
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Sorry if I misread ya Monica - the original post here seemed to me to indicate that two homosexual “lovers” would continue to live together, but just not have physical sex.

But of course, same-sex attraction wouldn’t in and of itself be a sin unless it was acted upon (this means even mentally acted upon as in willfully dwelling on the desires themselves). If the folks in question separated from the near occaision of sin, and made every effort to lead chaste lives - their same sex attraction wouldn’t be a sin. It would be one heck of a cross though. Our prayers and support should be with such folks.

DustinsDad
 
oat soda:
the whole problem here is the insane idea that somehow people have a sexual orientation that is independent of us being male and female.
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OatSoda,

Might I suggest you check out the March of Dimes website
search.marchofdimes.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=475&page_id=3473664&query=hermaphroditism&hiword=hermaphroditism
to see what they say about hermaphroditism…

“Babies who are born with ambiguous genitals have external genital organs that do not appear clearly male or female, or have features of both. For example, a girl may be born with a large clitoris that resembles a penis, or a boy may have testicles with female-like external genitals. An estimated 1 in 1,000 to 1 in 2,000 babies are affected.”

I was in a doctor’s office once thumbing through a TIME magazine issue…can’t recall the month or year otherwise I would have cited that reference…but there was an article following up on some adults who, at infancy, had their ‘sex’ determined by physicians/parents. It was a real eye-opener for me because I did not realize how many children are born this way - and it got me thinking about the idea of ‘genetic’ homosexuality.

These men/women as adults either remained the sex they were ‘given’ or not. Some, by the ‘average’ societal eye, were living homosexual lifestyle when in fact they were correcting the error made by others on their behalf at birth. Reading their stories led be to be more compassionate to homosexuals in general, and certainly has kept me from jumping to conclusions about the source of that person’s lifestyle.

Now I still agree the likelihood of a ‘gay’ gene is slim to nil…but I hadn’t considered before something going wrong in the reproductive process which results in a birth defect like “ambiguous genitals”. This definitely is NOT a theory for these 1 in 1,000 or 2,000 births. It’s a reality, and the sad part, reading the article was that the parents made the best decision they could under the circumstances KNOWING it wouldn’t be until puberty that the body itself would lean more one way or the other. What a heartwrenching position the parents were in. I pray for all families confronted with such a situation.
 
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DustinsDad:
But of course, same-sex attraction wouldn’t in and of itself be a sin unless it was acted upon (this means even mentally acted upon as in willfully dwelling on the desires themselves). If the folks in question separated from the near occaision of sin, and made every effort to lead chaste lives - their same sex attraction wouldn’t be a sin. It would be one heck of a cross though. Our prayers and support should be with such folks.

DustinsDad
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Good post! I’m glad at least one other person sees the truth. Holding hands motivated by the disordered desire would be a sin – even talking in a romantic way motivated by the disordered desire would be a sin. Of course other forms of holding hands – like holding hands to pray or holding their hand to pull them up from the ground if they have tripped and fallen would be OK (assuming there’s no bad intention)
 
but there was an article following up on some adults who, at infancy, had their ‘sex’ determined by physicians/parents. It was a real eye-opener for me because I did not realize how many children are born this way - and it got me thinking about the idea of ‘genetic’ homosexuality.
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in the case of hermaphroditism, our senses would tell us that a baby is born with characteristics of both sexes in which case we would know something is wrong. either these disorders are genetic abnormalities or are recessive diseases that affect the adrenal gland. only about 1 and 20,000 births have this disorder, far lower then the amount of homosexuals we see today. true hermaphroditism is very rare and little is known about it.
 
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