Can homosexuality not be a sin if

[YinYangMom]

oat soda:

in the case of hermaphroditism, our senses would tell us that a baby is born with characteristics of both sexes in which case we would know something is wrong. either these disorders are genetic abnormalities or are recessive diseases that affect the adrenal gland. only about 1 and 20,000 births have this disorder, far lower then the amount of homosexuals we see today. true hermaphroditism is very rare and little is known about it.

Your 1 in 20,000 is quite different from the March of Dimes’ 1 in 1,000 or 2,000. What is your source for those statistics?

Granted there are a heck of a lot more homosexuals ‘choosing’ the lifestyle than there are born into the condition. My point was we are not in the position to cast judgement on which homosexuals chose the life from those who honestly are men who were raised to be women or vice versa. We should not be quick to jump to conclusions.

And again, the source of the lifestyle is not the issue anyway…both are called to the same life of chastity and celibacy. However, the way we help the people choose to meet that challenge makes a big difference. When one tells you straight out that they believe they’ve been a guy all along - have felt trapped forever - we shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss that explanation as balony.

 

[Valtiel]

AuntMartha:

A guy gazing lovingly into another gay guy’s eyes? Two gay guys, arms about each others shoulders, hip to hip, walking along the beach at sunset? Is this the sort of things two guys who are just friends do? Or anyone who is not romantically involved? What is the intention behind the actions? Gay love, or friendship? If it’s simply friendship, two guys are not going to be all over each other.

Where did ever imply friends as the line being drawn, I’m talking about full blown lovers…

 

[april_hosen]

I dont know off the top of my head but I’m sure somewhere in the Bible it mentions even the seriouse consideration/thought of any homosexual activity is considered sin. Also Ithink if two same sexpeople are making out, its considered wrong and a sin.

 

[Other_Eric]

april_hosen:

I dont know off the top of my head but I’m sure somewhere in the Bible it mentions even the seriouse consideration/thought of any homosexual activity is considered sin. Also Ithink if two same sexpeople are making out, its considered wrong and a sin.

Hi april_hosen!

This is the verse I think you may mean:

But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

-Matthew 5:28
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If merely looking upon a woman with lust is to commit adultery, then what can we say of two men who look upon each other with lust?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Valtiel:

There is no sex involved…
I get this a lot actually that if a same sex couple go through everything in love except sex, then it’s okay…
What in the world do I say to this???

As long as one maintains the distinction between the relationship proper to only Marriage and the relationship proper to only the brother/ sister relationship. As with those who are divorced and attempt re-marriage. They cannot act as if they are married which does go beyond just sex.

 

[april_hosen]

Hey Eric,
Thanks! Yes I believe thats the one. But like this verse doesnt only apply to men it applys to everyone.
Ps-Eric, I couldnt of put it better thanks.
Other Eric:

Hi april_hosen!

This is the verse I think you may mean:
[/right]
If merely looking upon a woman with lust is to commit adultery, then what can we say of two men who look upon each other with lust?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

YingYangMom,

It has nothing to do with what I think or what you think…science is science, and while there are scientists ready to ‘prove’ it is not biological, there are scientists ready to prove otherwise. Dear Abby named a couple just the other day:

" If I did not believe with all my heart that what I wrote is true, I wouldn’t have put my thoughts on paper. Homosexuality is simply a variant of sexual orientation. Those who claim it is “unnatural” should direct their attention to Dr. Joan Roughgarden, a biologist at Stanford University with a Ph.D. from Harvard, who states that more than 300 vertebrate species have been found to practice homosexuality. (A visit to any zoo might confirm it.) And while one gene may not be responsible for this variant, Italian researcher Andrea Camperio-Ciani of the University of Padua notes that research findings point to there being more than one “gay gene,” and that the genetic factors linked to homosexuality in men are also linked to increased fertility in women.
I stand by my reply."

I accept your post, it is logical. However, there is a false dicotomy in this latest reply.

When a Catholic speaks of Natural Law, they do not mean what occurs in fallen (even animal) nature. What they mean is the purpose to which a thing is designed. Male and Female is a design of procreation and union – theology of the body.

“Science” is not a passive abstract truth. It is a search by passioned human scientists who can and do misrepresent their own findings.

I am not an expert on this subject, however, I do know (for example) that learning is itself literally genetic. Memories are Stored via Genes being turned on and off – as an act of the will.
Supposedly more than 15 genes are involved in storing memories.
Hence, I could legitimately say that memories are in the Genes.
(Sounds absurd, memories are totally an evironmental thing right?)
To a cerain extent, all biological functions are ‘in the Genes’ for learning is itself (obviously from my example) in the Genes.

When someone says a person is ‘born with Homosexuality’, I could counter that homesexuality is really learned, but that some people are born with a defect preventing them the ability to learn the behavior. (philosophically half full / half empty)

I assume, what you are really getting at, is that some people innocently trigger the condition whereby the desire (lust) is triggered. An animal, who enters that state acts on it. A human does not have to – they have reason and will.

I would say that homsexuality, even in animals, is against natural law even though it is found in nature. For the purpose (law) of sexuality is reproduction and unity, not the wastage of sperm and eggs in a futile act.

 

[bjcros87]

Homosexuality is a sin.

‘being’ a homosexual (specifically being born that way) is not a sin (I’ve known a few).

those who ‘choose’ to be homosexual (I’ve known a few) are making a conscious decision to live out a homosexual lifestyle.

It is the homosexual ‘act’ which is a sin.

That means those born homosexual are challenged to live with the condition through a celibate/chaste life.

Those who are not born into it sin by ‘choosing’ to live the active lifestyle.

Chastity for heterosexuals and homosexuals is the same call…we live our lives for God…we respect the bodies God gave us…we protect our mind, body and soul against temptation.

So when they say ‘everything except sex’ then they are already admitting the ‘couple’ has entered into a commitment on whatever level to share their life with a member of the same sex. There is a sharing of one’s heart, one’s love, one’s desires, one’s needs with someone of the same sex. This is an intimate relationship.

The intent is not toward chastity and toward God, instead it is to go as far as they can without crossing the line. Since God knows the intentions of one’s heart this ‘arrangement’ would also be sinful.

Put the situation in a heterosexual context and the sin becomes evident: a single male lusts and longs for an intimate relationship with a single woman…If the two engage in conversations, develop emotions and behave in such a manner indicative of an intimate relationship but do not get together ‘physically’ they are still sinning. It’s not as grave a sin as if they did indeed connect, but it’s a sin nonetheless.

Firstly, people aren’t born homosexual. It is unnatural. Yes homosexuality is a sin. It is clearly stated in the Bible. The people of Sodom were punished for their immorality. All homosexuals choose that lifestyle. It is a sin for a man to merely lust after a woman. So it would hold the same for a man and man or woman and woman.

 

[petra]

Valtiel:

There is no sex involved…
I get this a lot actually that if a same sex couple go through everything in love except sex, then it’s okay…
What in the world do I say to this???

…kissing, holding hands, being intimate you know all that relationship stuff just minus any and all sexual activity…

What you describe above is sexual, even if the ultimate act is not present. If the individuals are committed to abstaining from the ultimate act, the activities you describe will lead to frustration and other forms of sexual release. In a word, no, this is not okay.

 

[dmgs11]

bjcros87:

Homosexuality is a sin.

Firstly, people aren’t born homosexual. It is unnatural. Yes homosexuality is a sin. It is clearly stated in the Bible. The people of Sodom were punished for their immorality. All homosexuals choose that lifestyle. It is a sin for a man to merely lust after a woman. So it would hold the same for a man and man or woman and woman.

How you one who is not a homosexual pass judgement on those who are? Being a homosexual IS natural for homosexuals, just as being heterosexual. Not ALL homosexuals CHOOSE the lifestyle. We are not all that FORTUNATE. So please don’t ASSUME you know, because you are not backed by any HARD FACTS. I am HOMOSEXUAL and I have had these feelings and intentions since the age of 5. I was unaware of what sex was at that age, yet I knew I was different from other young girls my age. The Bible is not, let me repeat, IS NOT a FACTUAL book. It is a book of Stories. We are proven this in the first two chapters. There are 2 different stories of how Adam and Eve came about. Before speaking for those that don’t care for your (name removed by moderator)ut, try looking at the situation from a HOMOSEXUAL’s point of view. What is fact is flesh and blood and NATURAL URGES. A homosexual man lusts for another man, as a heterosexual man lusts for a woman.

Please note you are speaking lies as truth and are very close to falsely accusing millions of homosexuals. I urge you to retreat your statement. Otherwise it makes it ok for me to state all straight men are rapists, molesters, and abusers. This is my opinion. NOT FACT. There is no instance where ALL can be used when speaking about human nature. We are all created DIFFERENT, and that is GOD’s choice, not your opinion.

 

[Other_Eric]

dmgs11:

How you one who is not a homosexual pass judgement on those who are? Being a homosexual IS natural for homosexuals, just as being heterosexual. Not ALL homosexuals CHOOSE the lifestyle. We are not all that FORTUNATE. So please don’t ASSUME you know, because you are not backed by any HARD FACTS. I am HOMOSEXUAL and I have had these feelings and intentions since the age of 5. I was unaware of what sex was at that age, yet I knew I was different from other young girls my age. The Bible is not, let me repeat, IS NOT a FACTUAL book. It is a book of Stories. We are proven this in the first two chapters. There are 2 different stories of how Adam and Eve came about. Before speaking for those that don’t care for your (name removed by moderator)ut, try looking at the situation from a HOMOSEXUAL’s point of view. What is fact is flesh and blood and NATURAL URGES. A homosexual man lusts for another man, as a heterosexual man lusts for a woman.

Please note you are speaking lies as truth and are very close to falsely accusing millions of homosexuals. I urge you to retreat your statement. Otherwise it makes it ok for me to state all straight men are rapists, molesters, and abusers. This is my opinion. NOT FACT. There is no instance where ALL can be used when speaking about human nature. We are all created DIFFERENT, and that is GOD’s choice, not your opinion.

Hi dmgs11!

I can understand your frustration. Not every Christian approaches the subject of homosexuality with charity or thought. Of course the same can often be said for homosexuals who comment on Christianity. Both sides of the aisle can benefit from humility.

The comment that you refer to in your post states in part that the Bible condemns homosexuality itself is a sin. Strictly speaking that is not true. It is not the inclination but only the decision to act upon it that is understood to be sinful. Every verse in the Bible that speaks to this issue refers to the act, not the temptation. This is the distinction most likely to be misunderstood by all.

In your own post, you maintain that homosexuality is natural for you. For my purposes here I will allow that you have been homosexual since at least age five or possibly in utero. From a Catholic point of view, it doesn’t matter. Everyone is born with impulses that he or she should not act upon. You can point out that you believe that the Bible is just a storybook, but most of Christ’s ministry involved telling people stories. Those stories spoke to deeper truths.

Just like all homosexuals are not as sexually depraved as they are made out to be, not all Christians are self-righteous. Welcome to the forum.

 

[bjcros87]

dmgs11:

How you one who is not a homosexual pass judgement on those who are? Being a homosexual IS natural for homosexuals, just as being heterosexual. Not ALL homosexuals CHOOSE the lifestyle. We are not all that FORTUNATE. So please don’t ASSUME you know, because you are not backed by any HARD FACTS. I am HOMOSEXUAL and I have had these feelings and intentions since the age of 5. I was unaware of what sex was at that age, yet I knew I was different from other young girls my age. The Bible is not, let me repeat, IS NOT a FACTUAL book. It is a book of Stories. We are proven this in the first two chapters. There are 2 different stories of how Adam and Eve came about. Before speaking for those that don’t care for your (name removed by moderator)ut, try looking at the situation from a HOMOSEXUAL’s point of view. What is fact is flesh and blood and NATURAL URGES. A homosexual man lusts for another man, as a heterosexual man lusts for a woman.

Please note you are speaking lies as truth and are very close to falsely accusing millions of homosexuals. I urge you to retreat your statement. Otherwise it makes it ok for me to state all straight men are rapists, molesters, and abusers. This is my opinion. NOT FACT. There is no instance where ALL can be used when speaking about human nature. We are all created DIFFERENT, and that is GOD’s choice, not your opinion.

Please note that I didn’t accuse anyone of anything. It doesn’t matter to me what you do in your own house. I don’t judge you. God will do that. However, I will tell you what you are doing is wrong. It is biblical that homosexuality is unnatural.
God didn’t create Adam and Steve. He created Adam and Eve. Homosexuality is a peversion of the goodness of sex. Just the same as sex outside of marriage.
It is not for me to judge anyone. However, I am able to say that homosexuality is unnatural and I can also say that it is immoral.
Homosexuality is a choose. It is a cultured thing and has to do with the environment they grew up in. Natural means that you are born that way. Which isn’t the case. You may have natural feelings for sex and lust, and homosexuals misplace that on members of the same sex.
The idea that people are made that way is very dangerous and is wrong. God created us. He wouldn’t make us to sin in that way.
I would advise you to turn from your immorality.
God didn’t make you homosexual. The world and the culture did.

 

[bjcros87]

Other Eric:

The comment that you refer to in your post states in part that the Bible condemns homosexuality itself is a sin. Strictly speaking that is not true. It is not the inclination but only the decision to act upon it that is understood to be sinful. Every verse in the Bible that speaks to this issue refers to the act, not the temptation. This is the distinction most likely to be misunderstood by all.
Just like all homosexuals are not as sexually depraved as they are made out to be, not all Christians are self-righteous. Welcome to the forum.

It isn’t just the act that is sin. It is even contemplating the act. A man[or woman] lusting after a woman[or man] is the sin of adultery, so for a man to lust after another man or woman after another woman(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.
How are they not sexually depraved?

 

[Other_Eric]

bjcros87:

It isn’t just the act that is sin. It is even contemplating the act. A man[or woman] lusting after a woman[or man] is the sin of adultery, so for a man to lust after another man or woman after another woman(which is what homosexuality is) is a sin.
How are they not sexually depraved?

Hi bjcros87!

Everyone is subject to disordered inclinations and evil impulses. The fact that a particular temptation to a particular disorder exists for someone does not equal sin. What does equal sin is the decision to act upon the temptation. In the case of a homosexual, this may mean dwelling upon a disordered sexual thought that he or she had. Certainly lusting after someone is different from simply acknowledging that he or she may be attractive.

As far as the sexual depravity of homosexuals is concerned, I think you may need to define your terms. Is a man who experiences same-sex attraction but does not act upon it and has a healthy spiritual life depraved in the same way as a similar man who is sexually active and has a string of different partners?

 

[bjcros87]

Other Eric:

Hi bjcros87!

Everyone is subject to disordered inclinations and evil impulses. The fact that a particular temptation to a particular disorder exists for someone does not equal sin. What does equal sin is the decision to act upon the temptation. In the case of a homosexual, this may mean dwelling upon a disordered sexual thought that he or she had. Certainly lusting after someone is different from simply acknowledging that he or she may be attractive.

It is not just the acting upon the temptation of sin. It is also harboring the temptation and allowing it to take root. I would agree that if I see a beautiful woman walk by and I get a temptation but don’t continue to look I have not sinned. However, if I continue to look I am lusting after that person. Harboring the temptation is still a sin. For everyone.
Other Eric:

As far as the sexual depravity of homosexuals is concerned, I think you may need to define your terms. Is a man who experiences same-sex attraction but does not act upon it and has a healthy spiritual life depraved in the same way as a similar man who is sexually active and has a string of different partners?

To be fair I will say that both homosexuals and heterosexuals are depraved. By the definition that even thinking about it constitues adultery. I am guilty of this I confess.
However, by another definition then it is only homosexuals that are always depraved. Sex is good within the confines of marriage. Therefore, because the very definition of marriage is between one man and one woman then Homosexuals can’t be within the confines of marriage.

 

[Asking]

What about homosexuals who pretend to be straight, and get married and have children?

Is that a sin? a valid good option?

 

[buffalo]

Asking:

What about homosexuals who pretend to be straight, and get married and have children?

Is that a sin? a valid good option?

Entering the sacrament of marriage in a lie such as that, certainly would be a sin.

 

[bjcros87]

Asking:

What about homosexuals who pretend to be straight, and get married and have children?

Is that a sin? a valid good option?

I don’t see that as a sin. However, if people really are born gay then that means God created them to be that way. So they should do what they were created to do.(Not really they aren’t created that way and they should still not sin.) Going against God is sin. So the way I see it homosexuals are in a lose-lose situation. If they aren’t the way God created them to be they are sinning, but if they act on that they are sinning aswell. Note God doesn’t want people to sin, he doesn’t create us to sin. We sin as a part of our choice.

 

[im_wildrose]

Just jumping in with a side-note in regards to animal studies. I have heard of these studies but have never actually read them. I have to think, however, as someone else mentioned, that the behaviors these studies speak of are not true “homosexual” behaviors as the scientists would like people to think. For example, it is very common to see a male dog mount another male dog. This is a sign of dominance, NOT homosexuality. Animals are ruled by their instinct to procreate. They would not engage in actual sexual relations that are futile. I seem to recall reading something about this relating to female geese that often live together extensively. This seems to me an arrangement based on companionship. If they lay eggs they must still be having a relationship with a gander at some point, but just choosing to stay together for the sake of companionship.

At any rate, this is mostly a mute point because, as it has been said, you cannot impose human morality onto animals. Animals are ruled by their instincts. Even the most tame and pampered pet dog is still a dog and may still bite or attack if provoked in the right way. Human beings can resist these base urges and do not have to act on every instinctual feeling we have. While we all may struggle with various urges (homosexuality for some, jeolousy, vanity, lust, anger, etc. for others) , we should always strive to overcome these urges and live as God calls us to live to the best of our abilities.

I think there is also a lot to be said for damage caused by improper role models, sociatal influence, and/or actual abuse in one’s childhood and it’s influence on a person’s adult perception of sexuality. This applies both homosexually and heterosexuality. For example, a person who is exposed to pornography at an early age may still grow up heterosexual but with a warped view of sexual relationships. This, I believe, is a very common phenomenon.
Anyway, that’s my two cents however it relates to the topic. One other thing that is passing through my mind is that, in the past, it seems to me, it was more common for two men or two women to share a home for an extended period of time without it necessarily being a sexual relationship in any way and no one thought much about it. It was a practical arrangement in which neither of them had ever married and it made sense to share living expenses and such. So, I guess that makes four cents from me.

God bless, Jen

 

[Asking]

Buffalo, why would you say it is a lie? Because there is no real love (at lest at the moment when they get married)?
In the past and in many cultures marriage used to be arranged, and that was often the situation.

Better to marry than burn.

BJ, If they are born that way, then, bad luck, I feel bad for them, but that doesnt threaten the unchanged position of the church on homosexuality at all.
People are also born blind, with severe problems, and didnt jesus talk about those who were born eunuchs?