Can i accuse the traditionalists of causing scandal?

[KathleenElsie]

I can relate to the OP. I thought I was traditional until I met some people who think television is an instrument of the devil (maybe a demon or two most of what is put out there is garbage in my opinion), women should wear skirts all the time (about 75% of the time in my case I look terrible in pants), you should NOT send your children to Catholic schools because they are too liberal (some are others arn’t look at what they teach and who the teachers are), and it’s a sin to not pray the rosary every day (As you can see I ask everyone to pray the Rosary and Divine Mercy daily But a sin to not do so LOL NO WAY).

It does put me off to the Church a little bit. (other humans should never be a reason to be “put off”) Not to the point I would lose the slightest bit of faith in the Catholic Church, but I think “how can I possibly fit into this parish when I can’t meet the other mother’s standards of holiness?” (look to God not to the woman next to you I tend to ask Mary for lots of prayers for grace and underwstanding)

I do enjoy hearing a lot of the things they have to say though, so I try to encourage them to talk about what they think about stuff as much as possible. (any help that other Catholic moters can give is good as long as it is true to Holy Mother Church)

I know they are just trying to help me become more holy, because whatever they are doing makes them feel more holy. (I pray this is not ther reason for offering help. I have found that offering help when it is not welcome does no one any good )So I try to just listen to their criticisms and nod my head.

God Bless and remember God loves us each for who we are not what we pretend to be.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

Kathleen,

Thanks for your encouragement. I am new to the Church, and sometimes it really gets me down when I hear traditionalists and liberals complain about the parish, priest, Church, or other parishoners. I love the Church so much. Sometimes the music is bad or the priest or parishoners tick me off, but it’s still our Church. I want to love it with out being dragged into nonsense.

 

[kam1953f]

OneAugustKnight,

Please don’t be put off by traditionalists or any of the other factions of the Church. Such groups have been around since at least the Council of Jerusalem in 50 A.D.

On one issue or another I have found myself in strong agreement or disagreement with most of them. I study what they all have to say and forge my Catholic path according to the best judgment of my own conscience.

In Catholicism, the conscience is supreme. God does not reject anyone who follows his conscience faithfully, and He cares more about the works of mercy than whether a woman wears slacks.

Back in the Stone Age before Vatican II, I asked of my First Communion teacher, “Do you really mean that if I eat meat on a Friday I will go to the same hell as Hitler?” I missed a couple of recesses for that question. It was only much later that I realized I’d been punished so the nun could save face - When a teacher has a class of 50 kids, she can’t afford to be undermined by the independent thought of a student.

This is why I find it so unsettling when members of one faction of the Church criticize those of another faction: We’re all trying our best to do right as we understand it. No one should ask anybody to do the supernatural trick of reading God’s mind, much less judge him when the poor human being can’t do it.

 

[OLRansom]

If you have a specific accusation to make, make it. If it all remains in the realm of general accusations, it is worthless and profits no one.

 

[OLRansom]

Do you really mean that if I eat meat on a Friday I will go to the same hell as Hitler?

The simple answer is, “Yes.” If you are aware of the disciplinary law, and knowingly and willingly break it, it is a mortal sin. If you die in such a state, hell is your portion.

Btw, you were also presuming to know the outcome of Hitler’s particular judgment.

 

[dulcissima]

I’m a convert and when I first started coming to CAF I thought the traditionalists that posted in the Liturgy & Sacraments forum were nuts. Funny thing is, as I’ve been going to Mass over the past couple of years, I’m noticing that I’ve come around to seeing things their way. The lively music I might have once enjoyed, I find jarring when I am trying to focus on the miracle that is happening all around me at Mass. I cringe as I watch the priest in defiance committing abuses. I tell Jesus I am so sorry for what they are doing. I used to always wear jeans to Mass. Now I always wear skirts. A couple of weeks ago I was praying before Mass started and for some reason imagined myself coming to Mass with a veil. Just that thought made me realize how tight across the chest my shirt was, and I realized how ridiculous wearing a veil would be when I was really not dressed very modestly. I have recently changed parishes, and am thrilled to hear that our priest will be training for the TLM. I love that the new parish has a pipe organ, and I have yet to hear a jazz ensemble at Mass. I love the reverence of all the parishoners.

So, I would not accuse the traditionalists of causing scandal. I thank them for their witness and their steadfast support for tradition, obedience, and reverence.

 

[puzzleannie]

I cannot accuse anyone of causing scandal or of any other wrong action. I can weigh in with an opinion about the strategy and tactics of various individuals and groups in their attempts to effect change within the Church, but no, I cannot make accusations, since we are not playing Clue here.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’m a convert and when I first started coming to CAF I thought the traditionalists that posted in the Liturgy & Sacraments forum were nuts. Funny thing is, as I’ve been going to Mass over the past couple of years, I’m noticing that I’ve come around to seeing things their way. The lively music I might have once enjoyed, I find jarring when I am trying to focus on the miracle that is happening all around me at Mass. I cringe as I watch the priest in defiance committing abuses. I tell Jesus I am so sorry for what they are doing. I used to always wear jeans to Mass. Now I always wear skirts. A couple of weeks ago I was praying before Mass started and for some reason imagined myself coming to Mass with a veil. Just that thought made me realize how tight across the chest my shirt was, and I realized how ridiculous wearing a veil would be when I was really not dressed very modestly. I have recently changed parishes, and am thrilled to hear that our priest will be training for the TLM. I love that the new parish has a pipe organ, and I have yet to hear a jazz ensemble at Mass. I love the reverence of all the parishoners.

So, I would not accuse the traditionalists of causing scandal. I thank them for their witness and their steadfast support for tradition, obedience, and reverence.

Yes – let us all be Catholics, not Pharasees.

 

[KathleenElsie]

The only time I’ve ever been soured, even in the tiniest bit, to the Catholic Church is when i read some of the posts on the traditional board. Some of the posters have an obvious disdain for modern ritual and almost have a self imposed ban going of all things N.O.

There is ridicule of any worship of God that isn’t contained in their narrow view of what is and isn’t Catholic.

So, i guess in a way… if i drift from the Church one day having realized that those who purport to be closest to God are the most not like him… Would that make them guilty of causing scandal?

I mean, if a woman in a bikini can cause a man to sin… she is guilty of scandal. If a Traditionalist through words can cause a Catholic to loose faith in the Church… wouldn’t they be guilty of scandal as well?

Just a mental exercise…

If something bothers a person and hurts their soul then it is their duty to turn away from it. IMHO you would be a wiser person to turn away from the Traditional Threads and then you will not be “soured on the Catholic Church”.

You are always welcome to post, No one has the right to Ban you. But if it is so distasteful then don’t.

God Bless

 

[thechrismyster]

If you have a specific accusation to make, make it. If it all remains in the realm of general accusations, it is worthless and profits no one.

If you have something to add to the discussion do so. otherwise that post was worthless and profited no one.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you have something to add to the discussion do so. otherwise that post was worthless and profited no one.

So is the above.

 

[Writer]

I can relate to the OP. I thought I was traditional until I met some people who think television is an instrument of the devil, women should wear skirts all the time, you should NOT send your children to Catholic schools because they are too liberal, and it’s a sin to not pray the rosary every day.

It does put me off to the Church a little bit. Not to the point I would lose the slightest bit of faith in the Catholic Church, but I think “how can I possibly fit into this parish when I can’t meet the other mother’s standards of holiness?”

I do enjoy hearing a lot of the things they have to say though, so I try to encourage them to talk about what they think about stuff as much as possible.

I know they are just trying to help me become more holy, because whatever they are doing makes them feel more holy. So I try to just listen to their criticisms and nod my head.

I think it’s important to also bear in mind that there is a significant difference between some aspects or elements of Catholic Culture and what the Church believes. If I find a particular dimension of this culture to be less than appealing, I should probably pray for them (and myself) and avoid that which has the potential to encourage scandal or division.

When we were new Catholics, for instance, we had to take several Catholic Culture issues to our priest to be assured that those beliefs were not in accordance with real Catholic thought or belief. (Even had a Catholic friend I met in the RCIA process who believed that a particular prayer formula “bound” God to answer whatever was being asked of him.) I’ve learned since to avoid those things that get under my skin the most…well sometimes.

 

[John_Mailer]

When you set yourself up as an accuser, aren’t you doing exactly what you accuse others of?

Maybe you are accusing in a sly way.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Maybe you are accusing in a sly way.

There’s nothing accusatory about suggesting someone look at his own actions from someone else’s perspective.

But then civilians never read The Defense of Duffer’s Drift.

 

[Julianna]

So … what exactly is self-absorbed and unchristian about this? He is stating his experience and no one has said it’s not true, that some of the posters in the Traditional forum don’t have this attitude. He says that this attitude that only their way is the true Catholic way sours him a little.
I also fail to see how him “accusing” some posters of believing their way is the only way and disparaging all things N.O. is him doing the same thing. He’s not disparaging all things traditional or ridiculing the traditional preference for worship. He’s saying how their attitude about NO makes him feel.

There is nothing offensive or uncharitable about his post. I do think it’s interesting that some feel the need to silence or try to bully anyone who states an opinion that is contrary to the traditionalist view. cracks me up…but I keep posting anyway.

One more thing – I do agree that naming the thread “can I accuse the traditionalists of scandal” is provoking. However, how many threads have I read where people here inform others that they are sinning, and scandal seems to be a favorite. That’s hardly uncommon here.

**It is amazing how mere mortals can tell who is and who isn’t sinning or is going to hell in a handbasket…from words anonymously typed on a screen. I keep thinking to myself, I’ve got to find out where they bought that crystal ball. **

**I agree…I don’t believe the OP is self-absorbed. I find some (not all) of the posters in the Traditional forum akin to the fundamental/evangelical protestants. It’s the our way or the highway to hell theory. There was a thread about wedding receptions a long while back, and a majority of the Traditional posters believed that some receptions with drinking, dancing, and the garter toss were scandalous. I was like, you’re kidding right? Every Catholic (Irish and/or Italian) wedding I have been to, including mine, had all the above. I have been to a few Baptist wedding receptions that were over in a hour, no dinner, no music, definately no alcohol and absolutely no dancing.

One can “accuse” anything they want. Take it with a grain of salt. You don’t have anything to prove to “human beings”…although there are some on this planet who really believe they have all the answers. I don’t subscribe to scare tactics, that is what keeps me going.
**

 

[Julianna]

OneAugustKnight,

Please don’t be put off by traditionalists or any of the other factions of the Church. Such groups have been around since at least the Council of Jerusalem in 50 A.D.

On one issue or another I have found myself in strong agreement or disagreement with most of them. I study what they all have to say and forge my Catholic path according to the best judgment of my own conscience.

In Catholicism, the conscience is supreme. God does not reject anyone who follows his conscience faithfully, and He cares more about the works of mercy than whether a woman wears slacks.

**Back in the Stone Age before Vatican II, I asked of my First Communion teacher, “Do you really mean that if I eat meat on a Friday I will go to the same hell as Hitler?” **I missed a couple of recesses for that question. It was only much later that I realized I’d been punished so the nun could save face - When a teacher has a class of 50 kids, she can’t afford to be undermined by the independent thought of a student.

This is why I find it so unsettling when members of one faction of the Church criticize those of another faction: We’re all trying our best to do right as we understand it. No one should ask anybody to do the supernatural trick of reading God’s mind, much less judge him when the poor human being can’t do it.

As my father stood in line for confession (circa 1940), one of his classmates stepped out of the confessional crying hysterically. My dad took her aside and asked her what was wrong. She told him that she told Father that her mother had served meat on Friday and that she ate it. She said, “Father told me that my mother should have her hands cut off!”

My dad skipped confession that day and walked his classmate home and tried to calm her down.

If a priest told my 11 yr old daughter that…I would be in the confessional giving him a piece of my mind. But back in the day, it was “fear” that kept the faithful. It doesn’t work anymore.

My dad passed away a year ago in May. He always avoided meat on Fridays…even after I came home from catechism class one day and showed him the paper stating that during Lent is when we avoid meat on Fridays. He wasn’t buying it. I know now, that it was because of fear and the immigrant culture of the times he was raised.

Perhaps the priest in my dad’s friend’s case and the nun in your case, rather than reacting…would have “explained” why the Church has this teaching in order to give the child a better understanding.

I guess I view “scandal” very differently.

 

[KathleenElsie]

As my father stood in line for confession (circa 1940), one of his classmates stepped out of the confessional crying hysterically. My dad took her aside and asked her what was wrong. She told him that she told Father that her mother had served meat on Friday and that she ate it. She said, “Father told me that my mother should have her hands cut off!” If the priest was not saying this in jest then he was just wrong to say this.

My dad skipped confession that day and walked his classmate home and tried to calm her down. Good for your dad he did what was proper.

If a priest told my 11 yr old daughter that…I would be in the confessional giving him a piece of my mind. But back in the day, it was “fear” that kept the faithful. Some yes just as there are some religions that use fear today both are wrong. It doesn’t work anymore.

My dad passed away a year ago in May. He always avoided meat on Fridays…even after I came home from catechism class one day and showed him the paper stating that during Lent is when we avoid meat on Fridays. He wasn’t buying it. I know now, that it was because of fear and the immigrant culture of the times he was raised. As the rule is to avoid meat or do some other penance on Friday many of us have just continued the no meat Fridays.

Perhaps the priest in my dad’s friend’s case and the nun in your case, rather than reacting…would have “explained” why the Church has this teaching in order to give the child a better understanding. All people not just priest and nuns need to not react to situations. The need is for action not reaction.

I guess I view “scandal” very differently.

In some cases a little fear goes a long way. When we teach our children about the HOT stove we use fear. It is just that some go way toooo far. I believe joy is harder to teach then fear so some take the easy way out.

I view scandal as when someone proclaims to be something and then does everything in their power that shows they are doing the exact opposite. Politicians come to mind. The situation must be so obvious as to be impossible to ignore. At this point it becomes “scandal”.

 

[Jenny_Z]

I stopped reading the Trad board for exactly that reason. It seems hypocritical to me that you could say you’re Catholic and in Full Communion with Rome, recognize that the Pope is the successor of Peter, etc, and yet speak with such disdain for a valid form of the Most Holy Mass, authorized by Pope John Paul II.

I can understand being angry with some problems with liturgical abuse, but I see no reason to hate A WHOLE FORM OF MASS (hello, it’s MASS, Most Holy Communion!!) based on some priests’ horrible decision to abuse it in certain cases. The Norvus Ordo at my parish is beautiful and reverent. It doesn’t make any sense to hate it because it’s a Norvus Ordo, or even because it’s not in Latin.

I started to fall into the same pit as the Trads on that board, but I decided to stop reading the board for a while, and realized what was going on. It’s really sad to me.

 

[KathleenElsie]

OneAugustKnight,

Please don’t be put off by traditionalists or any of the other factions of the Church. Such groups have been around since at least the Council of Jerusalem in 50 A.D. People that place things and actions be for God have been around since Adam and Eve. But then there is a need to know what moral and social norms are acceptable to God and which are not. This is discernment.

On one issue or another I have found myself in strong agreement or disagreement with most of them. I study what they all have to say and forge my Catholic path according to the best judgment of my own conscience. As long as you don’t base decisions on emotions then this is as it should be.

In Catholicism, the conscience is supreme. God does not reject anyone who follows his conscience faithfully, and He cares more about the works of mercy than whether a woman wears slacks. true

Back in the Stone Age before Vatican II, I asked of my First Communion teacher, “Do you really mean that if I eat meat on a Friday I will go to the same hell as Hitler?” I missed a couple of recesses for that question. It was only much later that I realized I’d been punished so the nun could save face - When a teacher has a class of 50 kids, she can’t afford to be undermined by the independent thought of a student.

WWII was fresh in the minds of many at that time. Many if not all of the children in that class had family members that were involved in the war. As you can not know what the situation was for the others in the class or the nun you can not IMHO place a motive on something that many years ago.

This is why I find it so unsettling when members of one faction of the Church criticize those of another faction: We’re all trying our best to do right as we understand it. No one should ask anybody to do the supernatural trick of reading God’s mind, much less judge him when the poor human being can’t do it.

The only thing I find as strange is when a “non traditional” (sometimes I wonder what this is) comes on to a board that is traditional and argues or starts what they know will cause hurn and anger.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I stopped reading the Trad board for exactly that reason. It seems hypocritical to me that you could say you’re Catholic and in Full Communion with Rome, recognize that the Pope is the successor of Peter, etc, and yet speak with such disdain for a valid form of the Most Holy Mass, authorized by Pope John Paul II.

I can understand being angry with some problems with liturgical abuse, but I see no reason to hate A WHOLE FORM OF MASS (hello, it’s MASS, Most Holy Communion!!) based on some priests’ horrible decision to abuse it in certain cases. The Novus Ordo at my parish is beautiful and reverent. It doesn’t make any sense to hate it because it’s a Novus Ordo, or even because it’s not in Latin.

I started to fall into the same pit as the Trads on that board, but I decided to stop reading the board for a while, and realized what was going on. It’s really sad to me.

As a “traditional” I don’t hold disdain for the Pauline Mass. I hold it in high esteem. I hurt for the fact that in some cases it is not what it was meant to be.

I do think it would be nice if I could find one (yes just one) Latin Pauline Mass within the 45 miles that I have to travel to get to the TLM. I can’t or they are so private and hidden that no one knows of them. Many of us have tried to find them.

I can go to a polka mass, a charismatic mass, a youth mass and many other masses but not a Pauline in Latin as it was originally meant to be and this makes me sad. Not that the others are out there but that they are each indults and the true Pauline Mass is not. In my talking to others around the world this seems to only hold in the USA and Canada. The rest of the world tends to a more dignified form of Mass.