can i attend a worship service at a mosque?

[Aydan]

I see. Yes, I am aware that the RC church encourages you to fast during other times of the year, but unless things have changed quite a bit since I was under Rome, this does not include marking specifically Islamic holidays. It is good that you hold on to the Christian meaning of fasting, but I wonder how this fits in with “solidarity” (with who/what?) talk. I can find no genuine cause on religious grounds for solidarity with Muslims, though perhaps Rome teaches differently.

okay let me clarify you are absolutely right we are not allowed to observe Muslim holidays and I do not do that because of the nature of Turkey these celebrations they do have are often secular and involve very little prayer etc. if they do I do not attend them. Even when I have attended those two dinners I refused to break the fast with dates because that is a purely Islamic practice inconsistent with Catholicism so I will not do it. By “solidarity” I mean simply fasting along with them so that I am not being rude and eating and drinking while they are fasting. Otherwise when I am at home I fast strictly for repentance and to bring myself closer to God just as we do during Lent There’s one more thing I need to clarify I don’t just do liturgy of the hours during Ramadan I do it during Lent as an extra devotion as well. Ramadan just provides me with an easy schedule for fasting outside of Lent I chose Ramadan simply because I’m already familiar with it and for the past six years there was one day where the Muslim Association at my school would sponsor an interfaith fasting day during Ramadan where people of all faiths pledge to fast to raise money and awareness for our local food bank. So for the past two years I said well I’m fasting one-day why not fast the entire month and use it as an extra opportunity for repentance and prayer? But when it comes to Islamic rituals and prayer I will not participate at all because I feel it would be inconsistent with Catholicism. that is why I do not participate in the feast of sacrifice at all since the pilgrimage to Mecca is purely Islamic and sacrifice is forbidden.

 

[scottywolf777]

Yes, you can. If you had a Islamic friend, go with them. However, I must ask why your Jewish friend wants to go to a mosque?

I’ve been wondering why a jewish liberal (whatever that might mean) would want to go to a mosque. Empty, it’s just a prayer hall… While on the one hand the Koran calls Christians and Jews people of the book. It also has some less than complimentary things to say about both of us. Since neither of you are muslim even the muslim “creed” would be inapproriate. There is one God, ALLAH is his name and MOHAMMED is his prophet. Would either of you feel comfortable declaring that?
Frankly, though maybe the challenge is to make you do something totally odious to you and your faith in Jesus. Have you given this guy a green scapular?

 

[Aydan]

(name removed by moderator) I’m finding Josh’s arguments confusing I just want to verify something Vatican II is the standard for the Catholic Church today and it doesn’t teach there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church right? I’ve been Catholic for six years and this is the first time I have come across this argument.

 

[Aydan]

I know there were people who didn’t acknowledge Vatican II but I never expected them to say all of the things that Josh has been saying about other Catholics it’s almost as if he is in a different Catholic church altogether. I mean he’s saying all these disrespectful things and ignoring the pope I don’t understand why these people like Josh ignore Vatican II in the first place. Is there something I can look for so that I can stay away from these parishes that don’t recognize Vatican II? I want to make sure I stay as far away from this ideology that Josh is professing as much as possible because I feel it might very well be heresy. Especially the part where he says we are following false doctrine because we are following Vatican II.

 

[Aydan]

okay I’m glad to hear that because Josh is the only person I’ve ever come across who does not acknowledge Vatican II. Thanks for the clarification on salvation. This information and discussion is very valuable.

 

[Josh27]

Ok (name removed by moderator) i’ll answer your question hopefully i can reason with you as prayer warrior does not accept previous Papal authorities. Your are absoultely sinning going to orthodox Churches, breaking of the first commandment, as well as participating in the novus ordo. I do not hold the sedevacantist view, the present man who sits in the papal chair is not the pope he is not Catholic. How can a heretic be a pope. Even if the faithful is reducded to a handful that remains the true Church of Jesus Christ on earth. Saint Athanasius. Aside from this issue, let’s focus on the main doctrine in question that is salvation outside the Church. Can salvation be had by those who are not united to the Church? Please back up your reply with references. Aside from Cathollic principles, pick and choose is not Catholic, that is what this whole issue has been about between you lot.

 

[Aydan]

what do you mean the Pope Benedict is not Catholic please specify why you think this with references this is about the strangest thing I ever heard.

Ok (name removed by moderator) i’ll answer your question hopefully i can reason with you as prayer warrior does not accept previous Papal authorities. Your are absoultely sinning going to orthodox Churches, breaking of the first commandment, as well as participating in the novus ordo. I do not hold the sedevacantist view, the present man who sits in the papal chair is not the pope he is not Catholic. How can a heretic be a pope. Even if the faithful is reducded to a handful that remains the true Church of Jesus Christ on earth. Saint Athanasius. Aside from this issue, let’s focus on the main doctrine in question that is salvation outside the Church. Can salvation be had by those who are not united to the Church? Please back up your reply with references. Aside from Cathollic principles, pick and choose is not Catholic, that is what this whole issue has been about between you lot.

 

[Josh27]

Gee where do i start?! Ok here is one, he denies the unity of the Catholic Church, which unity is exclusive only to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church.

Benedict XVI, Principles of Catholic Theology (1982), p. 229: “The statement of the Congregation… proposes to meet the crisis by a positive presentation especially of those points of Church doctrine that are under dispute and to establish the identity of Catholicism, not by excluding those who hold opposing views

This is blatantly heretical.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1441: “Therefore the Holy Roman Church condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views
Denzinger 705

 

[Aydan]

okay let me see if I understand you except everything prior to Vatican II and reject Vatican II and everything that comes after it as heresy moving away from the original teachings of the church is this correct? Since you don’t recognize our current Pope then who is the legitimate leader of the church here on earth? Also who is the last Pope you recognize and which is the last council you recognize as legitimate than and why I’m asking this because I want to research this topic.

Gee where do i start?! Ok here is one, he denies the unity of the Catholic Church, which unity is exclusive only to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church.

Benedict XVI, Principles of Catholic Theology (1982), p. 229: “The statement of the Congregation… proposes to meet the crisis by a positive presentation especially of those points of Church doctrine that are under dispute and to establish the identity of Catholicism, not by excluding those who hold opposing views

This is blatantly heretical.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, 1441: “Therefore the Holy Roman Church condemns, reproves, anathematizes and declares to be outside the Body of Christ, which is the Church, whoever holds opposing or contrary views
Denzinger 705

 

[dzheremi]

As much as I personally disagree with Josh’s stance regarding the Orthodox churches, the substance of his argument does beg the question why what the Roman Catholic Church teaches today contradicts what they taught in past eras. When I have asked similar questions here (and to my then-confessor, a Dominican priest, when I still lived in Oregon and was trying to remain loyal to Rome), I was told that it is not the Church’s stance that changes, but the understanding of the problems and situations it confronts, in light of applying apostolic principles and teachings to a world that is not static. I obviously did not buy that, and must say that it seems a rather shaky foundation on which to build a church or communion of churches. Having come from Protestantism, my “you’re making it up as you go along”-o-meter is rather sensitive, and I just can’t countenance that what one Pope said in 14-whatever should be directly contradicted by another now, in light of the RC-specific doctrine of Infallibility. These are certainly matters of faith and morals on which the Popes are speaking.

How do you folks deal with it? The cognitive dissonance seems like it’d be paralyzing…

 

[Josh27]

Thankyou dzheremi, its good you can see the contradictions. Yes Aydan the last true Catholic Pope was Pope Pius XII. Pius XII, said shortly before his death iam surrounded by communists! John 23 and Paul 6 are false popes possibly elected as legitimate popes but because of their actions are heretics. Prior to that these two men were clandestine members of secret societies, and highly likely are Jp1 who served 33 days and Jp2 and the current Benedict 16, the evidence of which would almost be impossbile to obtain due to the secret societies infulence. The prime movers of the V2 council, Cardinal Lineart (Top mason 33 degree ), startled those in the room shortly before his death exclaiming ‘humanly speaking the Church is dead’. The Broken Cross Piers Compton. Cardinal Bea Freemason, Cardinal Villot Freemason, Bugnini founder of the novus ordo Freemason, and so many others that cant be named in this short response. Christ is the invisible head of his Church, which can never fail. The Church can survive without a visible head as has happened in history, the only difference is that we are living in the end times. A time will come when the continual sacrifice will be taken away by Antichrist as predicted by Daniel and Our Lord in the latter times.

 

[Arch_Angel]

the present man who sits in the papal chair is not the pope he is not Catholic.

Those are very bold words Josh. You have not only unmasked yourself, but are disgraced in obedience and humility. I suggest you take up these issues with the Pope himself then.

“The Church’s pastoral practice, its liturgical discipline, and even its understanding of doctrine develop over time. Just as a man looks quite different from the child or the teenager he once was, so the Church today may appear different from what it was decades or centuries before. But just as the man substantially is the same person he was as a child or teenager, so the substance of the Church continues unchanged although different in appearance.”

The Church is living, its dynamic, its of “the day”… not the same day as yesterday. Your arguments Josh remove “reasoning” from the Catholic teaching that the Church is the progressive Body of Christ in our times.

Now, getting back on point about going to a Mosque you have not proven to me that I or anyone going to a Mosque is worshiping any God except God. Your argument that it violates the 1st commandment if void of any foundation.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone

 

[scottywolf777]

Since I refuse to get into a sedevacantist and now apocalyptic bent arguement, perhaps Josh27 and his pals should go start their own thread.
With that I’d like to go back to the OP’s original question and topic after thinking about it somewhat.

It seems to me that the Jewish friend is probably taking issue about both Jesus and Catholicism. The person of the Rabbi Yeshua whom we call Jesus is very contraversial in Judiasm. There is hatred, mistrust, anger and even fear of him. The OP taking this guy to Mass with him is considered a very confrontational act by this Jewish guy. The first and foremost thing he knows he’ll find is the crucifix, a sign of contadiction to jews. Even in messianic synagogues that rent Christian churches, the cross or crucifix is often covered.

Attending a mosque is both a challenge to the Catholic and a confrontation which balances out the playing field. Jesus is reduced to prophet and messiah from Son of God and Redeemer. The cross has no place in Islam either.

Mass is all about Jesus to your Jewish friend who probably at best sees him as a good Jewish boy gone wrong. The statuary (which to him is idolatry) reminds of Jesus. The music is about and sung to Jesus. Jesus is all through the liturgy including in the Old Testament (the Tenach) which can be especially distressing especially since Jews are taught to ignore all of it. I studied in a messianic synagogue for a year and found all the symbols pointing to Jesus.
I get the feeling that the OP wants to convert his friend to Christianity which can be a noble pursuit if done correctly. It will take time, dialogue, grace and tact, God’s love for this Jewish guy and ultimately the Holy Spirit needs to be at the centre of this

 

[dzheremi]

Those are very bold words Josh. You have not only unmasked yourself, but are disgraced in obedience and humility. I suggest you take up these issues with the Pope himself then.

“The Church’s pastoral practice, its liturgical discipline, and even its understanding of doctrine develop over time. Just as a man looks quite different from the child or the teenager he once was, so the Church today may appear different from what it was decades or centuries before. But just as the man substantially is the same person he was as a child or teenager, so the substance of the Church continues unchanged although different in appearance.”

The Church is living, its dynamic, its of “the day”… not the same day as yesterday. Your arguments Josh remove “reasoning” from the Catholic teaching that the Church is the progressive Body of Christ in our times.

Now, getting back on point about going to a Mosque you have not proven to me that I or anyone going to a Mosque is worshiping any God except God. Your argument that it violates the 1st commandment if void of any foundation.

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone

This certainly is one view of the Church’s interaction with or place in the modern world. Here, for purposes of comparison, is another, from the highly-recommended “Journey Back to Eden: My Life and Times Among the Desert Fathers” by Mark Gruber, O.S.B.

I went off this evening to the Cathedral of St. Mark in Cairo where Pope Shenouda was giving his Wednesday evening conference to the youth of the city. Thousands of young people come for this weekly audience with the man they call “our Pope.” He stands on a platform, or he sits in a large chair, answering questions they have placed in a box. For an entire hour and a half he has them in the palm of his hand. They applaud him wildly. He has such charisma, and yet his answers are of the most traditional sort. He presents wholly and entirely the Orthodox teachings of his church, in belief and in practice, in asceticism and inspiration. (pp. 74-75)