Can I attend an Episcopalian service?

[matthewdknight]

Every time I stay with my grandmother (who is an Anglican), she attends Mass with me on Sunday morning at the local Catholic church, and then invites me to come with her to the Episcopalian church later that afternoon. I feel a bit uncomfortable refusing, but the latter church seems very liberal. I’ve heard the “priest” making fun of the papacy, apostolic succession, and the Church. There is an altar server who I know is gay and a practising Pagan, and he mocks Christianity all the time (I think he only comes to the church because his parents are forcing him to). Also, the bishop came up a few weeks ago and told me that he was a “Reformed Catholic” or something, meaning that he wasn’t even an Episcopal bishop! He was the bishop of a schismatic group which I forget the name of, but which had the audacity to call itself catholic.

For all this, though, I still would feel wrong not to accept their invitation. Both my grandmother and my great-grandmother attend, and they have nothing but good things to say about it, plus they’ve been so accepting of my own conversion to Catholicism. Is it wrong to attend? I never receive their communion, and I pray privately during every service for God to lead them into the fullness of truth and Christian faith. I’m just a little bit worried.

(On a separate but not entirely related note, are there any Protestants here who can tell me why you don’t have Jesus Christ on your crosses? It’s a bit of a puzzler to me. My grandmother doesn’t know.)

 

[1ke]

While it is not appropriate to attend regularly, yes you may do so on occasion and as a favor to your grandmother and great-grandmother.

You have correctly discerned that you should not receive communion in their church.

 

[anp1215]

You can certainly attend as a guest of your grandmother. You don’t have to, but I do think it is polite to attend worship with the family member you are staying with, especially if they actually get up and go with you first.

No, you can’t have communion there.

Most Protestant churches don’t have Jesus on the Cross because they like to emphasize the risen Christ, thus the empty Cross.

 

[Johnnyduffy]

Those take part in the worship of non-Catholics who join in their religious services. Attendance at non-Catholic services, provided no part is taken in such worship, is allowed for sufficiently grave reason, for example, presence at a non-Catholic funeral or a marriage ceremony. The reason for this is because attendance couldest instill doubts about your greatest gift, the gift of Faith.

 

[Khalid]

No. One must attend a Catholic Church. I believe it may be acceptable to attend another congregation as long as you’ve already attended the Mass, you do not participate in any sense (if you participate or take their fake “communion” which they feed to dogs [literally], you are excommunicated latae sententiae), the matter is grave (that means, not an invitation, but a death, a wedding, etc.) and you are strong in faith and do not believe the heresy they preach (which really can never be the case, as mere propinquity will cause it to rub off on most people eventually, the same way religion is transmitted culturally to most people). However, it seems that in this case it would still be a sin and a scandal, as you would be giving implicit assent to the aberrant, heretical creed that modern non-Continuing Anglicans practice.

Especially in the case of a liberal service, with Mohammedan-led prayers, “interfaith ‘ecumenism’”, priestesses, Pagans, and active homosexual partners and such - those who wish to “exalt Christianity above theism and dogma” - which is even more immoral than the worst of secular culture, because it dresses it up in the garb of religion and piety.

 

[Bezant]

Every time I stay with my grandmother (who is an Anglican), she attends Mass with me on Sunday morning at the local Catholic church, and then invites me to come with her to the Episcopalian church later that afternoon. I feel a bit uncomfortable refusing, but the latter church seems very liberal. I’ve heard the “priest” making fun of the papacy, apostolic succession, and the Church. There is an altar server who I know is gay and a practising Pagan, and he mocks Christianity all the time (I think he only comes to the church because his parents are forcing him to). Also, the bishop came up a few weeks ago and told me that he was a “Reformed Catholic” or something, meaning that he wasn’t even an Episcopal bishop! He was the bishop of a schismatic group which I forget the name of, but which had the audacity to call itself catholic.

For all this, though, I still would feel wrong not to accept their invitation. Both my grandmother and my great-grandmother attend, and they have nothing but good things to say about it, plus they’ve been so accepting of my own conversion to Catholicism. Is it wrong to attend? I never receive their communion, and I pray privately during every service for God to lead them into the fullness of truth and Christian faith. I’m just a little bit worried.

(On a separate but not entirely related note, are there any Protestants here who can tell me why you don’t have Jesus Christ on your crosses? It’s a bit of a puzzler to me. My grandmother doesn’t know.)

While it’s not wrong for you to attend or lend your prayers – it will certainly take more than that for an educated Catholic to go CoE – you shouldn’t take active leadership or the Eucharist. This community sounds rather dodgy, and it’s up to you whether or not you’re comfortable with the situation to continue attendance. If you are not, however, just tell your grandmothers the truth and don’t go.

I don’t really what “Reformed Catholic” means, but some traditional Protestants (especially CoE, Lutherans) use “catholic” to describe themselves for whatever personal they have.

I’ve heard from some Protestants that the bare cross means glorifying a resurrected Jesus (as opposed to a “dead” Jesus), but I don’t know how universal this interpretation is.

 

[CatholicLife]

Just don’t pray with them…

 

[Bezant]

No. One must attend a Catholic Church. I believe it may be acceptable to attend another congregation as long as you’ve already attended the Mass, you do not participate in any sense, the matter is grave (that means, not an invitation, but a death, a wedding, etc.) and you are strong in faith and do not believe the heresy they preach (which really can never be the case, as mere propinquity will cause it to rub off on most people eventually, the same way religion is transmitted culturally to most people).

The point about not “substituting” Mass attendance with non-Catholic services is correct, but part in bold is unncessarily paranoid if you ask me. The CoE is not a virus.

However, it seems that in this case it would still be a sin and a scandal, as you would be giving implicit assent to the aberrant, heretical creed that modern non-Continuing Anglicans practice.

1. Can you back up that it would be a sin to attend?

Especially in the case of a liberal service, with Mohammedan-led prayers, “interfaith ‘ecumenism’”, priestesses and homosexual partners and such - those who wish to “exalt Christianity above theism and dogma” - which is even more immoral than the worst of secular culture, because it dresses it up in the garb of religion and piety.

Is the OP dealing with that here?

 

[Leegal]

Every time I stay with my grandmother (who is an Anglican), she attends Mass with me on Sunday morning at the local Catholic church, and then invites me to come with her to the Episcopalian church later that afternoon. I feel a bit uncomfortable refusing, but the latter church seems very liberal. I’ve heard the “priest” making fun of the papacy, apostolic succession, and the Church. There is an altar server who I know is gay and a practising Pagan, and he mocks Christianity all the time (I think he only comes to the church because his parents are forcing him to). Also, the bishop came up a few weeks ago and told me that he was a “Reformed Catholic” or something, meaning that he wasn’t even an Episcopal bishop! He was the bishop of a schismatic group which I forget the name of, but which had the audacity to call itself catholic.

For all this, though, I still would feel wrong not to accept their invitation. Both my grandmother and my great-grandmother attend, and they have nothing but good things to say about it, plus they’ve been so accepting of my own conversion to Catholicism. Is it wrong to attend? I never receive their communion, and I pray privately during every service for God to lead them into the fullness of truth and Christian faith. I’m just a little bit worried.

(On a separate but not entirely related note, are there any Protestants here who can tell me why you don’t have Jesus Christ on your crosses? It’s a bit of a puzzler to me. My grandmother doesn’t know.)

While I agree with most of what has been said; you have not done anything worng, and it’s respectful to your grandmother, I have some doubts. The Church openly makes fun of the Papacy and The Church. I would not be concerned about a gay altar server (you are not advocating for his lifestyle), As to the Bishop, I don’t know what a reformed Catholic is unless he means it that he has left the Church. Do not be concerned. Do these jokes about the Papacy and the Church take place afterward during normal conversation with the pastor and other congregants – maybe you can remove yourself from any after service social interaction or your grandmother would agree to cut these short.

Can you bring this up with your grandmother? That you are not against going with her to the Episcopal Church, but that you are (at the least) not comfortable in THIS Episcopal Church and that it is too "liberal’ for you. Is there another Church where you can both honor your grandmother’s wishes and still feel comfortable? Maybe your grandmother has already heard and noticed these disrespectful comments.

I would not worry too much; you have done nothing wrong. Pray about this. Maybe your grandmother will follow your lead and come to the Catholic Church by your good example.

 

[martininthefiel]

I have serious doubts about what you describe. The bishop probably meant that he used to be a Roman Catholic. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he is an Episcopal bishop. As to the conviction of individual lay people, who knows?

I left the Episcopal Church to become a Catholic because the Catholic Church is what I believe, but I respect Anglicanism. I don’t participate in the Eucharist in churches that are not in communion with Rome , but I do occasionally attend worship services. The Sunday lessons are the same, as in the Catholic Church, as is the Creed, and most of the rest of the Liturgy of the Word.

As always, be respectful of others.

 

[Leegal]

The reason why Protestants do not show Christ on the cross is because they feel that due to the Resurrection he should not be depicted as on the cross.

 

[martininthefiel]

And one more thing. Many, if not most, Anglican churches have crucifixes with Jesus on them.

 

[matthewdknight]

Wow, so many responses! Most of you seem to be saying that it’s all right, so that’s encouraging.

1ke:

You have correctly discerned that you should not receive communion in their church.

Thank you. I wasn’t sure the first time I went, but it seemed a bit dodgy to me that this invalidly ordained priest could literally consecrate a Eucharist, so I opted for discretion. Also, I haven’t received my sacramental First Communion yet, so I considered going up for a blessing, but decided against it and didn’t go up. Thank God I waited and did some research first!

anp1215:

Most Protestant churches don’t have Jesus on the Cross because they like to emphasize the risen Christ, thus the empty Cross.

I suppose that makes sense, although the crucifix as I understand it is a constant reminder of Jesus’ sacrifice for our salvation. Then again, the Catholic Church is very visual, and Protestant churches tend to be less so.

Johnnyduffy:

Attendance at non-Catholic services, provided no part is taken in such worship, is allowed for sufficiently grave reason, for example, presence at a non-Catholic funeral or a marriage ceremony. The reason for this is because attendance couldest instill doubts about your greatest gift, the gift of Faith.

I appreciate your concern, but I love the Catholic Church and my faith is solid. I still have much to learn, but I certainly won’t convert back to any denomination of Protestantism, let alone this Episcopalian parish. Can you clarify for me whether this is canon law, or just common practice? If the former, then of course I will not attend.

Khalid:

No. One must attend a Catholic Church. I believe it may be acceptable to attend another congregation as long as you’ve already attended the Mass, you do not participate in any sense (if you participate or take their fake “communion” which they feed to dogs [literally], you are excommunicated latae sententiae), the matter is grave (that means, not an invitation, but a death, a wedding, etc.) and you are strong in faith and do not believe the heresy they preach (which really can never be the case, as mere propinquity will cause it to rub off on most people eventually, the same way religion is transmitted culturally to most people).

I always attend Mass on Sundays, and my grandmother in fact usually attends with me. I’m taking that as a good sign - she also started praying the rosary recently (the real rosary, not the Anglican beads!) so maybe my Catholicness is having a good effect. I don’t take communion or say their Creed but, um, I do pray the Lord’s Prayer and respond at the proper times. I believe I’m well-read enough and love my Church enough not to be swayed by the occasional Episcopalian sermon, but honestly, thank you for your concern.

There’s the “grave matter” again, though. If this is part of canon law, can someone please point it out to me?

Khalid:

However, it seems that in this case it would still be a sin and a scandal, as you would be giving implicit assent to the aberrant, heretical creed that modern non-Continuing Anglicans practice. Especially in the case of a liberal service, with Mohammedan-led prayers, “interfaith ‘ecumenism’”, priestesses, Pagans, and active homosexual partners and such - those who wish to “exalt Christianity above theism and dogma” - which is even more immoral than the worst of secular culture, because it dresses it up in the garb of religion and piety.

Implicit assent is exactly what I’m concerned about. Even if I’m not breaking Church law per se, am I doing something ethically wrong by attending this service? I could ask my priest in the morning, but the new Missal goes into effect tomorrow and I’m sure he’s got a great deal to do. I’m afraid it might offend my grandmother, too, and she will be with me.

 

[matthewdknight]

I had to break this up into two replies because of a character limit.

Leegal:

While I agree with most of what has been said; you have not done anything worng, and it’s respectful to your grandmother, I have some doubts. The Church openly makes fun of the Papacy and The Church. I would not be concerned about a gay altar server (you are not advocating for his lifestyle), As to the Bishop, I don’t know what a reformed Catholic is unless he means it that he has left the Church. Do not be concerned. Do these jokes about the Papacy and the Church take place afterward during normal conversation with the pastor and other congregants – maybe you can remove yourself from any after service social interaction or your grandmother would agree to cut these short.

Can you bring this up with your grandmother? That you are not against going with her to the Episcopal Church, but that you are (at the least) not comfortable in THIS Episcopal Church and that it is too "liberal’ for you. Is there another Church where you can both honor your grandmother’s wishes and still feel comfortable? Maybe your grandmother has already heard and noticed these disrespectful comments.

I would not worry too much; you have done nothing wrong. Pray about this. Maybe your grandmother will follow your lead and come to the Catholic Church by your good example.

Thanks for the good advice. They’re not really jokes; more sort of off-hand comments that I’ve noticed in a few of the Episcopalian priest’s sermons, along the lines of “Of course, those Catholics think their Pope is descended from Peter, who they think was the first Pope, but…” These just strike me as rather offensive. I’m sure the priest is a good guy, but he certainly hasn’t stopped making those remarks since he learned he has an actual Catholic in his congregation sometimes.

There is a coffee hour after the Church, which they jokingly call the “third sacrament”. (Shouldn’t it be the “eighth sacrament” or…?) At any rate, the coffee hour is not the morally offensive part. But my grandmother and great-grandmother are already heavily involved in this church. They’re both on the Bishop’s Advisory Committee, my grandmother is a lector, and my great-grandmother is part of the Altar Guild, among other duties. Even if there was another Episcopalian church nearby, they wouldn’t move.

I’m really hoping they follow my example, as I mentioned above. Again, thank you for your advice and support.

martininthefiel:

I have serious doubts about what you describe. The bishop probably meant that he used to be a Roman Catholic. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that he is an Episcopal bishop.

No, I looked him up. Bishop Bob is actually part of what they call the “Ecumenical Catholic Church, an Old Catholic church in name, spirit, and policy”. They say Roman Catholics can receive their sacraments and so forth. I might be wrong, but I think the real Catholic Church says differently.

martininthefiel:

I left the Episcopal Church to become a Catholic because the Catholic Church is what I believe, but I respect Anglicanism. I don’t participate in the Eucharist in churches that are not in communion with Rome , but I do occasionally attend worship services. The Sunday lessons are the same, as in the Catholic Church, as is the Creed, and most of the rest of the Liturgy of the Word. As always, be respectful of others.

I, too, am a convert to the Church. I’ve noticed that the Episcopalians do seem to follow the same schedule of readings, but there are subtle differences to the Creed and the liturgy which I’m not entirely comfortable with. At any rate, thank you for your reminder to be respectful. I hope I didn’t come off as anything else in my original post.

 

[Khalid]

The point about not “substituting” Mass attendance with non-Catholic services is correct, but part in bold is unncessarily paranoid if you ask me. The CoE is not a virus.
**
Most religion is transmitted by propinquity, and not rational inquiry - most aren’t converts, but born in to the faith. Those who are born in to the faith had their religion transmitted by culture, not by inquiry. Closeness to religion, or any other cultural attitude, causes it to rub off on one: no one can look at a pluralistic society and deny it, amongst the ever-shifting mores and attitudes towards religion and tolerance (or even acceptance, as many liberals have gone towards).**

1. Can you back up that it would be a sin to attend?

I said, “it seems like”, meaning my personal opinion or intuition on the matter. I can not quote canon law, no.

Is the OP dealing with that here?

I don’t know: I was defining the sort of “liberalism” that is unconscionable in any circumstance, as indicated by, “this is the sort of liberalism…” followed by a list of attributes of sacrilege, blasphemy, and heresy that are often promulgated in Episcopal congregations. The OP is dealing with a blaspheming priest, a heathen server, and an openly homosexual server (I believe I got those attributes correctly attributed to the individuals).

 

[James_Miller]

An afternoon service in an Anglican church would be evensong and there would be no communion. When I am in London I often go to evensong at St. Paul’s Cathedral to hear their famous boys choir sing.

 

[Leegal]

I had to break this up into two replies because of a character limit.

Thanks for the good advice. They’re not really jokes; more sort of off-hand comments that I’ve noticed in a few of the Episcopalian priest’s sermons, along the lines of “Of course, those Catholics think their Pope is descended from Peter, who they think was the first Pope, but…” These just strike me as rather offensive. I’m sure the priest is a good guy, but he certainly hasn’t stopped making those remarks since he learned he has an actual Catholic in his congregation sometimes.

There is a coffee hour after the Church, which they jokingly call the “third sacrament”. (Shouldn’t it be the “eighth sacrament” or…?) At any rate, the coffee hour is not the morally offensive part. But my grandmother and great-grandmother are already heavily involved in this church. They’re both on the Bishop’s Advisory Committee, my grandmother is a lector, and my great-grandmother is part of the Altar Guild, among other duties. Even if there was another Episcopalian church nearby, they wouldn’t move.

I’m really hoping they follow my example, as I mentioned above. Again, thank you for your advice and support.

I would pray privately during the sermon and not take it into your heart, since you cannot attend another Episcopal Church. You go to Catholic Church earlier and you go to the Episcopal Church later out of respect for your grandmother. I would not partipate in the Episcopal service in any way; just be there for your grandmother.

Pray and offer this up to God. He may show you the way. Do not mentally participate during the sermon; instead pray for the pastor to be rightly guided. I think the pastor has lost his way. This is not usual in my experience for one religion to use the pulpit to contradict other faiths. He is misguided.

God Bless. I think God will find you a way out of this dilemma.

 

[Johnnyduffy]

I exerpted my previous reply from the baltimore chatechism 3. I believe you may only attend protestant services only if it is a grave matter (death or weddin g). I will find more sources when I get a chance.

 

[Johnnyduffy]

Frs. Rumble and Carty say in thier book Radio Replies, with and imprimatur fom Joannes Murray, archbishop of st. Paul says : “the law of the catholic church forbids participation in a religious service that is not catholic because it is an implied repudiation of the faith which a catholic professes to be the only true faith. It is good for non-catholics to realize this so that, knowing that catholics must refuse, they will not ask them to assist at the religious ceremony itself and then be offended as if a refusal were due to lack of friendship.” (Vol. 1 #1089) if you still have doubts, let me know so that I may convince you of the truth.

 

[Contarini]

Frs. Rumble and Carty say in thier book Radio Replies, with and imprimatur fom Joannes Murray, archbishop of st. Paul says : “the law of the catholic church forbids participation in a religious service that is not catholic because it is an implied repudiation of the faith which a catholic professes to be the only true faith. It is good for non-catholics to realize this so that, knowing that catholics must refuse, they will not ask them to assist at the religious ceremony itself and then be offended as if a refusal were due to lack of friendship.” (Vol. 1 #1089) if you still have doubts, let me know so that I may convince you of the truth.

But this is very clearly not the present position of the Catholic Church. I invite both you and the OP to consult the Vatican’s Principles and Norms on Ecumenism, which surely supersede the opinions of Frs. Rumble and Carty. These norms not only allow but encourage active participation by Catholics in Protestant worship.

The key here, doctrinally, is the recognition by Vatican II that Protestantism is not simply “false” in contrast to the “truth” of Catholicism–Protestant communities participate in the reality of the Church, though defectively. This is a classic example of Catholic theological development–it doesn’t repudiate the doctrinal principle behind the traditional view, but it further clarifies and nuances it.

Edwin