Can I attend an Orthodox "Mass"?

[AdriannaJean]

Hey Everyone,

I have been invited to join my boss (I am a nanny, so it is more like I am a family member) to their Church, which is Russian Orthodox.

I know that it probably wouldn’t fill my weekly Mass obligation, but at the same time, I think it is recognized that the Eucharist in both Catholic and Orthodox churches is the authentic Body of Christ.

I also know that in emergencies (such as if you were dying on the side of a road in Russia and you happened to be next to an Orthodox Church) you can receive the sacraments.

I also think that Orthodox Christians can receive the Eucharist in Catholic Churches, but can Catholics receive it in Orthodox ones?

If attending was done in the spirit of ecumenism, would it be ok as long as I still went to Catholic Mass as well?

 

[Madaglan]

From what I’ve read on the Catholic side, your attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy will not satisfy your Sunday Obligation. However, I believe that if you go to Mass on Saturday evening, you would fulfill your Sunday obligation and be able to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy on Sunday.

If you were dying and there were no Catholic priest nearby, you could, from the Catholic understanding, receive the sacraments from an Orthodox priest. However, whether or not the Orthodox priest would give you the sacraments is a different question.

From the Catholic perspective, Orthodox Christians are allowed to partake in the Catholic Eucharist. From the Orthodox side, however, this action is generally opposed–stories of Melkite/Antiochian Orthodox, Ruthenian/ACROD inter-communions aside. The only persons admitted to the Eucharist are Orthodox Christians.

 

[ruslan]

Hey Everyone,

I have been invited to join my boss (I am a nanny, so it is more like I am a family member) to their Church, which is Russian Orthodox.

I know that it probably wouldn’t fill my weekly Mass obligation, but at the same time, I think it is recognized that the Eucharist in both Catholic and Orthodox churches is the authentic Body of Christ.

I also know that in emergencies (such as if you were dying on the side of a road in Russia and you happened to be next to an Orthodox Church) you can receive the sacraments.

I also think that Orthodox Christians can receive the Eucharist in Catholic Churches, but can Catholics receive it in Orthodox ones?

If attending was done in the spirit of ecumenism, would it be ok as long as I still went to Catholic Mass as well?

I would like to know what you think of the Liturgy once you attend.

Here’s a link to the Apologist forum about communion.

Orthodox Church Communion

:heaven: :harp:

 

[Cluny]

Actually, attending the Orthodox Divine Liturgy would fulfill your Sunday Obligation, but from the Orthodox viewpoint, you could not receive Communion.

You can kiss the Cross and receive the Antidoron (blessed bread) at the end.

 

[ruslan]

Fulfilling Sunday obligation.

Another link from the Apologist forum and a quote from the link.

obligation

Although Catholics can occasionally attend Eastern Orthodox liturgies as a guest, those liturgies do not fulfill the Catholic’s Sunday/holy day obligation to attend Mass and Catholics ordinarily should not receive Communion at an Eastern Orthodox divine liturgy.

 

[The_Prodigal]

“If attending was done in the spirit of ecumenism, would it be ok as long as I still went to Catholic Mass as well?”

Yes, and the obligation to assist at a Catholic liturgy is not fulfilled by going with the Orthodox family to their church:

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

“I also think that Orthodox Christians can receive the Eucharist in Catholic Churches, but can Catholics receive it in Orthodox ones?”

Not under the circumstances you describe:

Can. 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

 

[malphono]

In regard to canon 1248, an argument could be made that an Orthodox liturgy is “a catholic rite” since the Church herself acknowledges that Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental, plus ACoE) Sacraments are valid. Personally, I would have no qualm about the “obligation” being fulfilled in any of those Churches.

In regard to canon 844, the Orthodox are always permitted to receive in Catholic Churches, and vice-versa. Whether an Eastern Orthodox priest will communicate a Catholic (or an Oriental Orthodox or ACoE, for that matter) is a an ad-hoc question. Some do but most, apparently, do not. The situation with the Oriental Orthodox (and the ACoE) is usually a bit easier: in general, the Syriac Orthodox and Armenians will normally communicate those in union with Rome. As I understand things, it’s done regularly in the Levant, there including even the Antiochian Orthodox and Melkites. The Copts are another story. I’ve no idea about the Ethiopians.

 

[The_Prodigal]

In regard to canon 1248, an argument could be made that an Orthodox liturgy is “a catholic rite” since the Church herself acknowledges that Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental, plus ACoE) Sacraments are valid. Personally, I would have no qualm about the “obligation” being fulfilled in any of those Churches.

I interpret “Catholic rite” in the canon to be inclusive of Latin as well as non-Latin liturgies in communion with Rome, not inclusive merely as to the form of the liturgy.

In regard to canon 844, the Orthodox are always permitted to receive in Catholic Churches, and vice-versa. Whether an Eastern Orthodox priest will communicate a Catholic (or an Oriental Orthodox or ACoE, for that matter) is a an ad-hoc question. Some do but most, apparently, do not. The situation with the Oriental Orthodox (and the ACoE) is usually a bit easier: in general, the Syriac Orthodox and Armenians will normally communicate those in union with Rome. As I understand things, it’s done regularly in the Levant, there including even the Antiochian Orthodox and Melkites. The Copts are another story. I’ve no idea about the Ethiopians.

The OP’s question was “…can Catholics receive it in Orthodox ones?” You say “always,” as indicated by the emphasis I added to your quote.

However, you forget the quite clear qualifications"Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist…"

The OP mentions no circumstance indicating that there is physical or moral impossibility of approaching a Catholic minister.

 

[The_Prodigal]

In regard to canon 1248, an argument could be made that an Orthodox liturgy is “a catholic rite” since the Church herself acknowledges that Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental, plus ACoE) Sacraments are valid. Personally, I would have no qualm about the “obligation” being fulfilled in any of those Churches.

Is this not the “indifferentism” disparaged by 844.2?

 

[mlouise007]

What a nice invitation to share the Divine Liturgy with this family you are so close to already.

Hey Everyone,

I also think that Orthodox Christians can receive the Eucharist in Catholic Churches, but can Catholics receive it in Orthodox ones?

ruslan provided you a link Orthodox Church Communion that offers the Catholic perspective on this question. There is also the perspective of the particular Orthodox Church in which you theoretically would be seeking Eucharist. It would be best to ask the deacon or priest of that Orthodox church before receiving. There is no Orthodox Church only Orthodox churches and the protocol varies in different Churches. You already have indicated you understand the visit you are asking about with your employer isn’t in this category and you aren’t seeking Eucharist in that Church.

(It’s also true for the Orthodox Christian receiving in the Catholic Church-- while s/he would be permitted from the Catholic perspective under special circumstances to receive Eucharist in a Catholic Church his/her own Orthodox church may or may not permit him/her to receive in a Catholic Church.)

I know that it probably wouldn’t fill my weekly Mass obligation,…

There is no weekly Mass obligation, only a Sunday Mass obligation which as someone else mentioned is also satisfied at a Saturday evening Mass.

P.S.Oops! I see Madaglan already answered all the above better than I have… mea culpa

If attending was done in the spirit of ecumenism, would it be ok as long as I still went to Catholic Mass as well?

I think it’s lovely they are asking you to join them for Divine Liturgy. They may well have other feasts being celebrated in their parish this week you could share in. Tomorrow night might be the Leavetaking of Pascha Ascension Eve Festal Vigil, and Thursday be Ascension.

There is a lot of material in other treads here about going to Divine Liturgy, at an Eastern Catholic Church or an Orthodox Church, as well as a lot on line. Going with their family they can help you feel comfortable taking part in this very rich sacramental-liturgical experience. I’m sure you’ll be warmly welcomed by the other parishioners and the deacons and priest there.

 

[malphono]

Is this not the “indifferentism” disparaged by 844.2?

I don’t see anything in that hallowed canon about fulfillment of “obligations” but I guess you do, and you are entitled to your opinion.

Whatever floats your boat.

 

[The_Prodigal]

I don’t see anything in that hallowed canon about fulfillment of “obligations” but I guess you do, and you are entitled to your opinion.

Whatever floats your boat.

844.2 describes the circumstances under which the faithful may receive the sacraments in another Church. One of those circumstances being the avoidance of the “danger… of indifferentism.” It says nothing about “obligations” nor did I insinuate that it does.

The attitude that the Holy See has indicated that sacraments are valid in some non-Catholic churches, and that therefore the Catholic faithful need have no “qualms” about approaching the chalice in an Orthodox church, amounts to indifferentism as I see it. If I am wrong, how so?

PS why on earth the sarcasm?

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Is this not the “indifferentism” disparaged by 844.2?

Prodigal:

3 quick notes…

1. Canon Law doesn’t “disparage” anything - It provides “guidelines” & “cautions”, sort of like the Traffic Laws we’re asked to obey as our part of getting & keeping a Driver’s License.
2. It’s normal practice here for members to list their religions. We’re all proud of our religious heritages, whatever they are and we try to represent them, and the Lord, in the best way possible. One way to do this is to identify the church we attend in the information provided with our screen name.
3. Try a little charity in dealing with others on this forum. Canon Law doesn’t disparage people, and neither should we.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[malphono]

844.2 describes the circumstances under which the faithful may receive the sacraments in another Church. One of those circumstances being the avoidance of the “danger… of indifferentism.” It says nothing about “obligations” nor did I insinuate that it does.

The attitude that the Holy See has indicated that sacraments are valid in some non-Catholic churches, and that therefore the Catholic faithful need have no “qualms” about approaching the chalice in an Orthodox church, amounts to indifferentism as I see it. If I am wrong, how so?

PS why on earth the sarcasm?

It wasn’t sarcasm.

I said “Personally, I would have no qualm about the “obligation” being fulfilled in any of those Churches.” Your comment was "Is this not the “indifferentism” disparaged by 844.2? " Therein lies the “inference” as you put it. I responded that I don’t see anything there about “obligations.”

Have a nice evening.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Adrianna Jean:

What a blessing that the family you work for has invited you to join them for their Divine Liturgy. Here’s the the Russian Orthodox Church in America website: russianorthodox.org/

There’ll be a quiz at the end of this - NOT …

Hey Everyone,

I have been invited to join my boss (I am a nanny, so it is more like I am a family member) to their Church, which is Russian Orthodox.

I know that it probably wouldn’t fill my weekly Mass obligation, but at the same time, I think it is recognized that the Eucharist in both Catholic and Orthodox churches is the authentic Body of Christ.

I also know that in emergencies (such as if you were dying on the side of a road in Russia and you happened to be next to an Orthodox Church) you can receive the sacraments.

I also think that Orthodox Christians can receive the Eucharist in Catholic Churches, but can Catholics receive it in Orthodox ones?

If attending was done in the spirit of ecumenism, would it be ok as long as I still went to Catholic Mass as well?

I’m pretty sure it won’t fulfill you Sunday obligation - But you just might want to check with you parish priest just to be sure. Your family need to attend the Saturday Vespers Service (and perform the Orthodox version of the Sacrament of Reconciliation) if they want to receive Communion on Sunday (My father died as an Orthodox after his parish joined the Western Rite of the Antiochian Orthodox Church). I also believe the Russian Orthodox priest wouldn’t give you the Eucharist if you asked. Although, he may invite you to “Venerate the Cross” & give you a blessing. And, you already know about the “blessed bread” - You’ll need it by the end of the Liturgy!

The normal Orthodox Divine Liturgy lasts anywhere from 2-1/2 - 3 hours and is heavenly, because it’s considered to be a foretaste and a mirror of the Heavenly Liturgy the saints experience for all eternity. The Iconostasis is considered to be the Revelation of God in His Angels and Saints, because we couldn’t bear to see Him in His full Majesty & Glory here on earth. What we experience in the Nave of the of our Churches, East and West, is The reflection. What we’ll experience in heaven will be the full Glory and Majesty.

Unlike in the West, where we’ve lost that, they’re very conscious of that in the East. You’ll do the service standing, but you’ll bow LOW to the Ground when the bread and wine are become the Lord…

It’s Awe in action.

Your Brother & Servant, Michael

 

[ruslan]

Yes, do wear comfortable dress flats or low heel dress shoes.

 

[Hesychios]

The attitude that the Holy See has indicated that sacraments are valid in some non-Catholic churches, and that therefore the Catholic faithful need have no “qualms” about approaching the chalice in an Orthodox church, amounts to indifferentism as I see it. If I am wrong, how so?

Actually, all one need do is obtain a blessing from one’s priest. Orthodox and Eastern Catholics are likely to seek this as a matter of course but Latin Catholics may not even think of that. There, no danger of indifferentism.

Another course of action is to simply go to the 7:30AM or 8:00AM speedy Mass first, fulfilling your obligation, then trot over to the other parish for the two hour Divine Liturgy. I did this several times myself

Of course, the duplication of effort should be unnecessary

My parish has a Latin church deacon attending once a month with his family (the wife and children are Orthodox). Cardinal George knows all about it. Out of respect we call the Mrs. “Pani”, and that is with the public encouragement of our priest!

There are any number of people who post here who could share similar insights.

Byzantine Rite Catholic churches share the same theology and spirituality as the Orthodox, and the big difference is who the Patriarch is. I don’t see how worshiping with one or the other can be ‘indifferent’. It is important to respect the parishes policy on communion but praying together in the same temple should be no problem.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[The_Prodigal]

1. Try a little charity in dealing with others on this forum. Canon Law doesn’t disparage people, and neither should we.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

The OP raises the questions: whether it would be okay for her as a Roman Catholic to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, and whether it would be acceptable for her to receive communion there. The OP suggests that she would also attend Mass as well.

Although she doesn’t use the term, she’s trying to avoid indifferentism.

Cluny suggested that attending Orthodox Divine Liturgy would fulfill her Sunday obligation; implying that she wouldn’t need to also attend Mass. To hold Cluny’s position is a form of indifferentism and is contradicted by canon 1248.

Malphono maintained that because Orthodox sacraments are considered valid by the Holy See, and because there is a sense in which the liturgies in Orthodox churches are catholic rites, Catholics are “always” permitted to receive communion in those churches. I pointed out that such an attitude is also a form of indifferentism, which is cautioned against in canon 844. The same canon specifies the limitations under which a Catholic may receive communion in non-Catholic churches with valid sacraments.

Since the OP is trying to avoid indifferentism, and since Cluny and Malphono erred in:

1. 
   *]implying that she didn’t need to attend Mass as well and
   *]implying that she could approach the chalice at the Orthodox church under the circumstances she described,
   
   I point out the errors of indifferentism to the OP. I did not attack any poster personally, only the positions they maintain. You may not like my conclusions - and if I am wrong by all means show me how - but do not accuse me of lack of charity!

 

[scott12345]

Hey dear friend , everyone have different think in christian but as i know that orthodox believe in only east sides as they want to worship to east sides only , i know they have believe in God but in a different style.
scott.
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[Diak]

With all due respect to “The Apologist”, I’ve never heard of any Latin Catholic bishop instructing any of his faithful that they had to attend Mass again after attending an Orthodox Liturgy, and in fact have heard several bishops say the opposite.

Citing the Canons is fine, but it has to be done in the fullness of Magisterial teaching (which does not seem to be reflected in “The Apologist’s” answer but rather a very literal interpretation of one or two canons).

This is from *Orientale Lumen *(Pope John Paul II):

Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

One cannot “be familiar” if one never attends and Eastern Church. There is no negative indication here at all.

From Unitatis Redintegratio of the Second Vatican Council, Paragraph 15:

The very rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern Churches should be known, venerated, preserved and cherished by all. They must recognize that this is of supreme importance for the faithful preservation of the fullness of Christian tradition, and for bringing about reconciliation between Eastern and Western Christians.

Again, it can’t be known or venerated if it is never experienced, nor can the desire of the Council and the Holy Father for the understanding and veneration by Western Christians of Eastern Christianity ever occur if there is no experience of Eastern Christianity.

Another key citation is Paragraph 16 of UR (the same document referred to above):

…All this heritage of spirituality and liturgy, of discipline and theology, in its various traditions, this holy synod declares to belong to the full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church. We thank God that many Eastern children of the Catholic Church, who preserve this heritage, and wish to express it more faithfully and completely in their lives, are already living in full communion with their brethren who follow the tradition of the West.

“Full Catholic and apostolic character of the Church”. It simply does not make sense in the full light of Magisterial teaching to think you have any remaining obligation after attending an Orthodox liturgy for beneficial purposes (educational, spiritual, etc.) as a Latin Catholic.

Also, at least for Ukrainian Greek Catholics, attendance at any of the Divine Praises or the Divine Liturgy (Vespers, Matins, or the Divine Liturgy) fulfills any festal or Sunday “obligation”.