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Irishmom2
Guest
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I really couldn’t understand what the OP was getting at.
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Diaconia
Guest
I don’t think it’s a good idea, and I wouldn’t advise you to do it.
People who are fake ministers or those who play “ministers” for a wedding make a mockery of both legitimate clergy and mock one of the Sacred Mysteries thst Christ gave us, matrimony.
Blessed are those who honor the first miracle Jesus worked at Cana,
Deacon Christopher
People who are fake ministers or those who play “ministers” for a wedding make a mockery of both legitimate clergy and mock one of the Sacred Mysteries thst Christ gave us, matrimony.
Blessed are those who honor the first miracle Jesus worked at Cana,
Deacon Christopher
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Many non religious hire a celebrant and have a traditional wedding outside a church.
Its very common. They do the walk up the isle, the dress, the rings, the guests sit and watch, the whole lot,.
If I was them and did not want a wedding in a church but still wanted a traditional wedding, I would hire a celebrant and do it that way. One wedding, one ceremony, a legally official celebrant to officiate.
Its very common. They do the walk up the isle, the dress, the rings, the guests sit and watch, the whole lot,.
If I was them and did not want a wedding in a church but still wanted a traditional wedding, I would hire a celebrant and do it that way. One wedding, one ceremony, a legally official celebrant to officiate.
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Mike_from_NJ
Guest
Oh, I know. I had two friends get married in different parks. And as I noted in another post I have a friend who is an officiant. But just as how most religious would scoff at the idea of using an officiant not of their religion, some non-religious don’t much like the idea of having to be forced to appeal to someone they don’t know instead of a friend or relative because that person is associated with a religion that granted officiating rights.
Some states in the U.S. require either a religious officiant or a judge, while others give equal rights to non-religious. For example, a few years ago Indiana ruled it was ok to have a non-religious officiant.
Good News, Atheists: You No Longer Need to Get Ordained Online to Officiate a Wedding in Indiana
Of all the ways that marriage is changing in our culture—opening up to same-sex couples, becoming more egalitarian—one major shift has managed to...
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Do you guys in the states have celebrants?
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Sam43232
Guest
Thanks again for the responses.
@Roseeurekacross I already explained why I am asking this question here in a previous post. I still intend to ask my priest, this was not intended to be a substitute (unless everyone here said don’t even think about it, here’s the ruling the Church has on this sort of thing, then there’s no point in asking.) As an aside, putting things all in CAPS is the internet equivalent of shouting, which I’m sure you didn’t intend to do… I’m also not sure why my topic is against the forum rules (I have read them). Perhaps you could explain which rule I am violating so I don’t violate it again?
@Diaconia Thank you, I appreciate that you took the time to comment as a deacon. Just to clarify they are not asking me to play at being a clergyman or to recreate a mock “sacramental” or “religious” wedding. My sister is strongly areligious (pray for her, please!) and her husband to be is of a similar cloth. Part of the reason she’s going this route is she doesn’t want to appeal to any clergy because she does not practice a faith or intend to.
@Roseeurekacross I already explained why I am asking this question here in a previous post. I still intend to ask my priest, this was not intended to be a substitute (unless everyone here said don’t even think about it, here’s the ruling the Church has on this sort of thing, then there’s no point in asking.) As an aside, putting things all in CAPS is the internet equivalent of shouting, which I’m sure you didn’t intend to do… I’m also not sure why my topic is against the forum rules (I have read them). Perhaps you could explain which rule I am violating so I don’t violate it again?
@Diaconia Thank you, I appreciate that you took the time to comment as a deacon. Just to clarify they are not asking me to play at being a clergyman or to recreate a mock “sacramental” or “religious” wedding. My sister is strongly areligious (pray for her, please!) and her husband to be is of a similar cloth. Part of the reason she’s going this route is she doesn’t want to appeal to any clergy because she does not practice a faith or intend to.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Putting words in caps is the equivalent of listen to everyone. And yes, I meant to reiterate what others before me said. I make no apologies for telling you to talk to the person responsible for your spiritual welfare, your Priest.
And your response to them in what they are saying being not very useful, with an exclamation mark, is the equivalent of !!!
And yes, as Diaconate says, the term ‘fake minister’ makes a mockery of the clergy and the Sacrament of Marriage.
How does your topic violate rules, great question
You asked if you can conduct a
‘Non sacramental, non legal wedding’
And you further stated you were asking advice.
Now if you read over CAF rules you will find under content rule, rule 11 covers it.
And your response to them in what they are saying being not very useful, with an exclamation mark, is the equivalent of !!!
And yes, as Diaconate says, the term ‘fake minister’ makes a mockery of the clergy and the Sacrament of Marriage.
How does your topic violate rules, great question
You asked if you can conduct a
‘Non sacramental, non legal wedding’
And you further stated you were asking advice.
Now if you read over CAF rules you will find under content rule, rule 11 covers it.
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Sam43232
Guest
I think you’ll find I’m very clearly not soliciting medical, psychiatric, psychological, or legal advice. It’s “non-legal” because the legally binding part is already covered in an earlier courthouse ceremony, at which I will have no role. If you read my posts, I am also not considering (and would never consider) becoming a “fake minister” and I have not used that term.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
You stated you wanted to conduct a wedding that was non legal and non sacramental. And you were asking for advice.
Perhaps you have worded your intentions poorly. In my country, in my language you are proposing acting as a marriage celebrant.
Can you be a fake anything? No. Catholics are here to represent the truth to the world. To exemplify the light of God in the world. And to do the will of God, which will put us in conflict with our family and friends at times.
Perhaps you have worded your intentions poorly. In my country, in my language you are proposing acting as a marriage celebrant.
Can you be a fake anything? No. Catholics are here to represent the truth to the world. To exemplify the light of God in the world. And to do the will of God, which will put us in conflict with our family and friends at times.
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Sam43232
Guest
Ah, thank you for explaining your confusion to me.
Where I live, unlike in your country, there are no celebrants. For a legally binding marriage, you have certain types of government employees and clergy. No third option.
In English there is no exact word for what I’ve been asked to do (so far as I know.) I used the term “fake” in quotes because I am not really being asked to officiate, nor am I being asked to actually fake it. I am not asked to legally or faux-legally marry them, they are taking care of that via the proper channels. To use an old expression, my situation is neither fish nor fowl.
Since they are not religious, they want no clergy. (And as disappointing as I find that, my sister is at least being true to her convictions, rather than aiming for a pretend religious ceremony.) Since (as other posters mentioned) the courthouse approach is a no-frills, sign the papers affair, they want something afterwards that will be more like a traditional wedding. I don’t think this is bad or a charade, given their situation.
I’m asking for friendly advice here because even if Father says, ‘Sure, you can do this, just make sure you don’t do X’, I was hoping to see if anyone else had been in this situation or had thoughts about whether or not it was a good thing to do. @guanophore noted, in addition to whether or not this is on paper permissable, “It is a matter of whether my role in the celebration confirms actions of others that fall short of God’s intention.” and as @Diaconia helpfully contributed, I wouldn’t want to be making a mockery of matrimony. Jesus Christ absolutely comes before my family, and the thoughts of other faithful Catholics on the matter are valuable to me even if my priest gives me the go ahead.
I hope you feel like you understand better now. If anything about language/country remains unclear after carefully reading this or prior posts, please ask. I always appreciate the chance to explain myself, especially as I was hoping for advice rather than a debating topic. Thank you for giving me that chance.
Where I live, unlike in your country, there are no celebrants. For a legally binding marriage, you have certain types of government employees and clergy. No third option.
In English there is no exact word for what I’ve been asked to do (so far as I know.) I used the term “fake” in quotes because I am not really being asked to officiate, nor am I being asked to actually fake it. I am not asked to legally or faux-legally marry them, they are taking care of that via the proper channels. To use an old expression, my situation is neither fish nor fowl.
Since they are not religious, they want no clergy. (And as disappointing as I find that, my sister is at least being true to her convictions, rather than aiming for a pretend religious ceremony.) Since (as other posters mentioned) the courthouse approach is a no-frills, sign the papers affair, they want something afterwards that will be more like a traditional wedding. I don’t think this is bad or a charade, given their situation.
I’m asking for friendly advice here because even if Father says, ‘Sure, you can do this, just make sure you don’t do X’, I was hoping to see if anyone else had been in this situation or had thoughts about whether or not it was a good thing to do. @guanophore noted, in addition to whether or not this is on paper permissable, “It is a matter of whether my role in the celebration confirms actions of others that fall short of God’s intention.” and as @Diaconia helpfully contributed, I wouldn’t want to be making a mockery of matrimony. Jesus Christ absolutely comes before my family, and the thoughts of other faithful Catholics on the matter are valuable to me even if my priest gives me the go ahead.
I hope you feel like you understand better now. If anything about language/country remains unclear after carefully reading this or prior posts, please ask. I always appreciate the chance to explain myself, especially as I was hoping for advice rather than a debating topic. Thank you for giving me that chance.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
What exactly are they asking you to do. Go through the physical process with us
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goout
Guest
If you are a Catholic, or believe in the Christian conception (pun intended) of marriage, no you cannot fake being an officiant.
It scandalizes the faith. This sounds more dramatic than it is, but you are contributing to the indifference of those attending.
You are also representing something contrary to your faith, which is a matter of personal integrity.
For the same reason, Catholics shouldn’t participate in communion services that mimic the Eucharist.
It scandalizes the faith. This sounds more dramatic than it is, but you are contributing to the indifference of those attending.
You are also representing something contrary to your faith, which is a matter of personal integrity.
For the same reason, Catholics shouldn’t participate in communion services that mimic the Eucharist.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
I think this is where people are getting confused. Usually when people are asking some lay person to be the “officiant” it is somebody who’s their best friend who may have a mail order “ministry” or otherwise is going to get up there and kind of play at being the “minister”. In some cases the person can actually legally marry the couple and in other cases depending on the state and the certificate the person has, etc the couple needs to have a separate civil ceremony to make it a legal marriage.
If it’s just a matter of you getting up there, introducing the couple, maybe saying a few nice things similar to a wedding “toast”, then the two of them say whatever vows they want to say to each other and you say “Ladies and Gentlement, I present Mr. and Mrs. Smith” (NOT “I now pronounce you man and wife” or any of that) then I can see a priest maybe giving the okay. But you need to ask him of course.
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Sam43232
Guest
@goout please read post #32 (my last) or post #35 by @Tis_Bearself; this may clarify what I am asking. I am not being asked to mimic, I am being asked to do the parts of the ceremony ancillary to the legal act of getting married. They will be legally married in a civil ceremony that the Catholic Church recognises as proper form for non-Catholics. They will be really and truly married. In my country, there’s no online ordination process to become a fake “minister” and that will not be any part of what I will be asked to do.
@Roseeurekacross I don’t know all of the details at this stage. I asked only a few questions before telling them I was very honoured, but I would need to speak with my priest before it was worth going any further.
Essentially, they would like to have as much as the traditional wedding moments (vows, rings, walking down the aisle, unity symbol etc) as I would be willing to participate in. They have not given me a list, partly because they particularly want me and know that I will not do certain things. They know that I would not be able or willing to “pronounce” them man and wife, and that even if I can do some of what they ask, I may have to decline other parts due to my Catholic faith. It’s a mark of how much my sister would like me to be involved; she could have asked other family members with no scruples on their part.
I think it could be as simple as what @Tis_Bearself describes, but the point is, before I talk shop with my sister, I will need to know what lines I cannot cross and reflect for myself which of the permissible things I would be comfortable with and which come too close to those lines for comfort. That’s another part of why I’m asking, I’ve never had to think about this before and it is (at this stage) pretty open ended. Like I said, even if Father gives the okay, there will be a lot to personally think about. (Unless of course he simply says no, in which case it will be rather simple.)
@Roseeurekacross I don’t know all of the details at this stage. I asked only a few questions before telling them I was very honoured, but I would need to speak with my priest before it was worth going any further.
Essentially, they would like to have as much as the traditional wedding moments (vows, rings, walking down the aisle, unity symbol etc) as I would be willing to participate in. They have not given me a list, partly because they particularly want me and know that I will not do certain things. They know that I would not be able or willing to “pronounce” them man and wife, and that even if I can do some of what they ask, I may have to decline other parts due to my Catholic faith. It’s a mark of how much my sister would like me to be involved; she could have asked other family members with no scruples on their part.
I think it could be as simple as what @Tis_Bearself describes, but the point is, before I talk shop with my sister, I will need to know what lines I cannot cross and reflect for myself which of the permissible things I would be comfortable with and which come too close to those lines for comfort. That’s another part of why I’m asking, I’ve never had to think about this before and it is (at this stage) pretty open ended. Like I said, even if Father gives the okay, there will be a lot to personally think about. (Unless of course he simply says no, in which case it will be rather simple.)
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goout
Guest
People are trying to help. YOu can only expect so much from a blog.
Your priest can help you.
Your priest can help you.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Very different to here, Tis bearself.
Sam, first question, if the couple are not sacramentally married in a Catholic Church, are they vows or promises to say to each other.
Sam, first question, if the couple are not sacramentally married in a Catholic Church, are they vows or promises to say to each other.
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Sam43232
Guest
They will not be sacramentally married. In a theological sense, they are not vows, because there is no acknowledgement of God. I guess I meant “vows” in the sense that what would be more properly called solemn promises that are made at weddings are normally called vows. But perhaps I should avoid using that word?
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13pollitos
Guest
This is my opinion
I think it is beautiful that you and your sister are close enough as adults that she wants you to have such a major role in the most important day of her life to date. As a mom, I pray my children are that close throughout their lives.
You risk hurting that relationship through a misunderstanding if you opt to not accept this role. If that relationship is harmed, how will you ever lead your sister and her family by example to God? I believe preserving relationships matters.
The “ceremony” she is seeking I have seen multiple times at anniversary parties. The couple is married legally and sacramentally, often for 25 years or more. Sometimes it is a priest that will be there, but more often or is a family member (often the oldest son) that does it. The couple will restate their wedding vows, sometimes exchange gifts or rings, sometimes be presented arras or lasso (Mexican or mixed couples sometimes have done this) or have unity candles. It is simply renewing their vows.
Besides, if Joe Biden, a practicing Catholic, can preside at a LEGAL same sex wedding, a sibling can lead a renewal of vows to share the joy with family and friends. I hope you enjoy your sister’s big day with her! Keep leading by example and with love. Pray for their marriage.
I think it is beautiful that you and your sister are close enough as adults that she wants you to have such a major role in the most important day of her life to date. As a mom, I pray my children are that close throughout their lives.
You risk hurting that relationship through a misunderstanding if you opt to not accept this role. If that relationship is harmed, how will you ever lead your sister and her family by example to God? I believe preserving relationships matters.
The “ceremony” she is seeking I have seen multiple times at anniversary parties. The couple is married legally and sacramentally, often for 25 years or more. Sometimes it is a priest that will be there, but more often or is a family member (often the oldest son) that does it. The couple will restate their wedding vows, sometimes exchange gifts or rings, sometimes be presented arras or lasso (Mexican or mixed couples sometimes have done this) or have unity candles. It is simply renewing their vows.
Besides, if Joe Biden, a practicing Catholic, can preside at a LEGAL same sex wedding, a sibling can lead a renewal of vows to share the joy with family and friends. I hope you enjoy your sister’s big day with her! Keep leading by example and with love. Pray for their marriage.
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13pollitos
Guest
Even at the courthouse (I married my husband at the courthouse initially), the judge has the couple exchange vows. It isn’t a different term used.
We married the next day in Church. Our priest was aware of the legal marriage and only asked that we not live together until after the Church wedding. So that is what we did.
We married the next day in Church. Our priest was aware of the legal marriage and only asked that we not live together until after the Church wedding. So that is what we did.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
Are you sure you are not legally eligible? In my state anyone can witness and officiate.
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