Can I be a priest AND get married!?!

[jackpuffin]

Okay, I’m just throwing this out there mostly because I’m curious; I’m not really seriously thinking about this: I’ve been discerning the priesthood for a long time and I’ve pretty much made the decision with my spiritual director to start looking for a seminary. Now, recently, thoughts of my ex-girlfriend have been coming up (a cute little Indian girl who I am still really good friends with (different from the other ex that I’ve posted about)), and I was wondering…can I be married and be a priest? The reason I ask is because I believe that TECHNICALLY, I am a Maronite Catholic. I was told by an Eastern Rite priest that your rite passes down from the father’s side. Since my dad wasn’t Catholic, I get my rite from my grandpa. He was a Maronite. Now, I have NEVER been to a Maronite liturgy, but if I am TECHNICALLY Maronite, couldn’t I get married and be a Maronite priest? Would I have to have gotten married before I felt the call? Would I need to switch rites? What’s the deal? I’ve had a lot of people jokingly tell me that I should look into the Maronite Rite because their priests get to get married. Hmmmmm…

 

[dbacks5439]

Okay, I’m just throwing this out there mostly because I’m curious; I’m not really seriously thinking about this: I’ve been discerning the priesthood for a long time and I’ve pretty much made the decision with my spiritual director to start looking for a seminary. Now, recently, thoughts of my ex-girlfriend have been coming up (a cute little Indian girl who I am still really good friends with (different from the other ex that I’ve posted about)), and I was wondering…can I be married and be a priest? The reason I ask is because I believe that TECHNICALLY, I am a Maronite Catholic. I was told by an Eastern Rite priest that your rite passes down from the father’s side. Since my dad wasn’t Catholic, I get my rite from my grandpa. He was a Maronite. Now, I have NEVER been to a Maronite liturgy, but if I am TECHNICALLY Maronite, couldn’t I get married and be a Maronite priest? Would I have to have gotten married before I felt the call? Would I need to switch rites? What’s the deal? I’ve had a lot of people jokingly tell me that I should look into the Maronite Rite because their priests get to get married. Hmmmmm…

First, since you’ve never been to a Maronite liturgy, you may have to “switch-over” to it. That may take some time, however.

Secondly, regardless of what rite you belong to, from what I see, you are still stuck between God and the girl. I know this is a very difficult position to be in because I had to go through the same thing. My advice is to pray long and hard, and it’s probably gonna take some time. God will let you know when you’re ready.

 

[jackpuffin]

Thanks for your response. Well, I would love to marry her, but it doesn’t bother me. (I’ve had to deal with the God or the girl issue quite intensley and I think I’m over it) I’m not seriously thinking about switching rites just to get married…mostly though because I’ve always assumed it would be dishonest and pretty much impossible…but if I really am Maronite…would it be that dishonest or impossible? How does marriage and ordination discernment work for a Maronite? Does anyone here know?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Okay, I don’t know for sure but from I have heard, Rome issued some kind of ban on Eastern rite bishops here in America ordaining married men. I think some Eastern rite bishops here in America will send married men to their rite’s native land to attend seminary. You’d have to be a priest there for a few years, too, before you’d be transferred back to the states.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

…but if I really am Maronite…would it be that dishonest or impossible? How does marriage and ordination discernment work for a Maronite? Does anyone here know?

If you really are Maronite, there is no reason you can’t discern with them, if you wanted to. There is nothing dishonest about it, I don’t think. If you do take this route, it won’t be easy and I think you have to be married before you are ordained a deacon.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

jackpuffin:

I was told by an Eastern Rite priest that your rite passes down from the father’s side. Since my dad wasn’t Catholic, I get my rite from my grandpa. He was a Maronite.

Jack,

If your father was baptized, then he was Maronite, whether he practiced as such or not. If he, in fact, was not baptized, then your Church is ascribed to that of your mother, whom I am guessing was Latin. See:

Canon 29 (Code of the Oriental Churches)

1. By virtue of baptism, a child who has not yet completed his fourteenth year of age is enrolled in the Church sui iuris of the Catholic father; or the Church sui iuris of the mother if only the mother is Catholic or if both parents by agreement freely request it, with due regard for particular law established by the Apostolic See.

dbacks5439:

First, since you’ve never been to a Maronite liturgy, you may have to “switch-over” to it.

dbacks,

If he is a Maronite (that is, he was born to a baptized father whose ritual Church was Maronite - regardless of whether jack’s father or jack was baptized in a Latin or Maronite church - and a conscious, formal, documented decision to have jack be Latin was not made by both parents), he needs do nothing to “switch-over”. Adherence to the praxis of one’s Ritual Church is not essential to being what one is.

ChristIsTheWay:

Okay, I don’t know for sure but from I have heard, Rome issued some kind of ban on Eastern rite bishops here in America ordaining married men. I think some Eastern rite bishops here in America will send married men to their rite’s native land to attend seminary. You’d have to be a priest there for a few years, too, before you’d be transferred back to the states.

CITW,

That info is about a decade out-of-date. The ban was imposed in 1929, by a document Cum Data Fuerit. The practice you describe of sending married candidates to the “Old Country” for ordination was observed until Christmas 1996 when Bishop John (Elya), then-Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, ordained then-Deacon Andre Saint-Germaine, a married man, to the presbyterate of the Melkite Church. All of the Byzantine Rite Churches in the US now ordain married men to the priesthood (altho there are a few eparchies (dioceses) which have not yet individually done so); the practice among the non-Byzantine Churches is a bit less consistent - some have, some have not.

Jack,

There are relatively few married Maronite clergy in the diaspora - especially the US - and I am uncertain whether Sayednhas Robert or Gregory have ordained any as yet (those whom there are may all be immigrants). The long latinization of the Maronite Church has worked against it in achieving a quick return to its historical roots.

As a general rule, to select a Church sui iuris in which to practice one’s faith on the basis of the fact that to do so would allow one to get married and subsequently pursue a vocation to the presbyterate is frowned upon by hierarchs. Married men who subsequently discern a call are much the norm, rather than folks who seek to plan it out as a way to achieve 2 goals.

If you have more questions, I’d suggest posting in the EC forum here, where they will more likely be seen by folks who can offer you information. Yeshua, a Maronite who posts there regularly, is a particularly valuable resource should you be interested in pursuing more knowledge of your Maronite heritage.

Many years,

Neil

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

CITW,

That info is about a decade out-of-date. The ban was imposed in 1929, by a document Cum Data Fuerit. The practice you describe of sending married candidates to the “Old Country” for ordination was observed until Christmas 1996 when Bishop John (Elya), then-Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, ordained then-Deacon Andre Saint-Germaine, a married man, to the presbyterate of the Melkite Church. All of the Byzantine Rite Churches in the US now ordain married men to the priesthood (altho there are a few eparchies (dioceses) which have not yet individually done so); the practice among the non-Byzantine Churches is a bit less consistent - some have, some have not.

Do you have any links to sources that will confirm this? I don’t doubt that you are correct but I have a friend in the Russian Orthodox Church who wanted to know if the ban had been overturned. Thanks.

 

[puzzleannie]

you cannot get married in any Eastern rite if you are already a priest.

as to your own rite, consult your bishop or the person he designates and offer supporting evidence (baptismal records etc.) You have to be nominated to a seminary by your bishop anyhow, so establishing your rite should be part of the discernment with the vocations director. If you want a referral to the comparable authority in another rite, he is also the one to direct you.

If you are discerning a vocation to the priesthood, the first step is discerning the charism of celibacy, because if you haven’t got it, it is doubtful you really do have a vocation.

 

[church_child]

I’ve been dealing with the same question: “God or the Girl”. To be honest, it’s been tough. I’ve had to really dig inside myself and see what God wants from me. The answer that I’ve come up with in my own life (and this can change, I’m only STARTING college seminary in the fall) is that I have natural human gifts. I’m not making any attempt to appear conceited, however, I’ve noticed that I have a natural affinity for bringing people out of the tunnel and helping them to find the light, whether it be emotional, spiritual, or otherwise. Do I know why I’m able to do that? No, I don’t. But I do know that a) it’s there for a reason and b) it’s too big to be given to just one person my whole life. I can love one woman, get married, and have children. Would I have a problem with that? Certainly not. However, if I am a priest, I would be able to help SO many more people. The priest, in my mind, is a man who is carrying the torch of Jesus Christ and the torchbearer must be alone and in front of the rest at all times so that those in the darkness will see His light and be able to follow.

 

[Brendan]

Do you have any links to sources that will confirm this? I don’t doubt that you are correct but I have a friend in the Russian Orthodox Church who wanted to know if the ban had been overturned. Thanks.

Pope John Paul’s 1995 Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen, specifically his exhoration for the Eastern Churches to practice and remain faithful to their traditions, has been viewed as a recovation of the ban on the Ordination of married men in ‘Western’ countries.

And every sui juris Eastern Church in North American has since Ordained married men with no objection from the Vatican.

 

[jackpuffin]

Very interesting posts! Actually, I forgot to mention that my grandfather is on my mother’s side…so that would technically make my mom Maronite…which would make me Maronite…cool! It makes sense now; I forgot that I don’t need to skip from my grandpa to me since my mom is technically Maronite. Well, the whole business about hierarchs frowning on stuf like that is the whole reason why I’ve never taken the idea seriously…and the reason I said I think it’s a little dishonest. I’ve always felt that if I was going to be a priest, I wouldn’t want to be married anyway. I think I will try to attend a Maronite liturgy one of these days though…you never know: maybe God will shine a light through the rafters and announce to me in a booming voice, “I WANT YOU TO BE A MARONITE PRIEST!” Of course, since I feel just about NO calling whatsoever to be a Maronite Rite priest, God would have to do just about that to get me to consider it seriously.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Do you have any links to sources that will confirm this? I don’t doubt that you are correct but I have a friend in the Russian Orthodox Church who wanted to know if the ban had been overturned. Thanks.

That info is about a decade out-of-date. The ban was imposed in 1929, by a document Cum Data Fuerit. The practice you describe of sending married candidates to the “Old Country” for ordination was observed until Christmas 1996 when Bishop John (Elya), then-Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, ordained then-Deacon Andre Saint-Germaine, a married man, to the presbyterate of the Melkite Church. All of the Byzantine Rite Churches in the US now ordain married men to the priesthood (altho there are a few eparchies (dioceses) which have not yet individually done so); the practice among the non-Byzantine Churches is a bit less consistent - some have, some have not.

Pope John Paul’s 1995 Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen, specifically his exhoration for the Eastern Churches to practice and remain faithful to their traditions, has been viewed as a recovation of the ban on the Ordination of married men in ‘Western’ countries.

Okay, I don’t know for sure but from I have heard, Rome issued some kind of ban on Eastern rite bishops here in America ordaining married men. I think some Eastern rite bishops here in America will send married men to their rite’s native land to attend seminary. You’d have to be a priest there for a few years, too, before you’d be transferred back to the states.

CITW,

The ban has never been formally revoked and I have never heard the explanation that Brendan offered regarding Orientale Lumen proferred as being considered a revocation.

As to sources, I personally know both Bishop John, Eparch-Emeritus, and Father Andre, Economos-Emeritus of the Eparchy (Father Andre has recently begun posting here as abounaandre1 - Abouna=Father). I could provide links to news stories of ordinations but, if you are looking for a link that states “Rome says it’s ok to do this” or “Cum Data Fuerit is no more!”, you’re not going to find one. Here’s an article, written about 7 years after the fact, about that first ordination. Note that Sayednha John cites the CCEO (the Oriental Code) as the basis for his authority to do so - not the Apostolic Letter referenced by Brendan.

There’s a relatively good historical discussion of the entire topic (altho focused largely on the Ruthenians) here. A year ago, Vladyka John (Kudrick) ordained a married deacon, Joseph Marquis, to the presbyterate of the Eparchy of Parma of the Ruthenians. Father Joseph’s ordination was the first such by the Ruthenians since the issuance of Cum Data Fuerit - which was directed specifically at that Church.

(cont’ed)

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Brendan:

And every sui juris Eastern Church in North American has since Ordained married men with no objection from the Vatican.

Brendan,

Not so. I am unaware of any ordinations of married men in the US neither by any of the Oriental Churches (neither those with nor those without hierarchical presence) which are represented here nor by either of the two Byzantine Churches represented here but without their own hierarchy. Additionally, I don’t believe that the Chaldean or Maronite Churches have done so, as yet, either (although I think that the Maronites have a married seminarian). In addition, the Ruthenians - with the exception of Vladyka John - have been slow to come around to exercising the self-accorded authority spelled out in the Particular Law of their Metropolia.

puzzleannie:

establishing your rite should be part of the discernment with the vocations director. If you want a referral to the comparable authority in another rite, he is also the one to direct you.

Annie,

Unfortunately, establishing a candidate’s Ritual Church is poorly done, if at all. In some instances, this occurs due to a tendency to think that “all Catholics are Latin”; in others, because many Eastern and Oriental Catholics were baptized in Latin parishes (for a whole host of reasons), often without the required notation made that they are of a different Church sui iuris. The latter occurs through ignorance on the part of parents not in touch with their own religious heritage or clergy who never foresaw to inquire or assumed it was of no importance.

I personally know 2 instances in which seminarians were close to ordination when there was a sudden realization on someone’s part that their Church sui iuris differed from that in which they were pursuing studies. In both cases, the seminarians were transferred to the seminaries of their respective Churches; one sought and obtained a Change of Canonical Enrollment to be ordained in the Church sui iuris in which he had been raised and to which he had always considered himself enrolled. (He did, subsequently, obtain and exercises bi-ritual faculties in the Church to which he canonically had been ascribed since birth, albeit unknown to him.)

puzzleannie:

If you are discerning a vocation to the priesthood, the first step is discerning the charism of celibacy, because if you haven’t got it, it is doubtful you really do have a vocation.

Obviously, such is not necessarily the case in the Eastern and Oriental Churches.

jackpuffin:

I think I will try to attend a Maronite liturgy one of these days though

Jack,

If you want to PM me w/ your location, I can give you info on the nearest Maronite parish to you. I’d highly encourage you to visit it and participate in the Service of the Divine and Holy Mysteries.

However, I would caution you that you are only Maronite, by virtue of your mother’s family history, if your father was not a baptized Catholic. If he was, you are ascribed to the Church sui iuris to which he belonged.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Unfortunately, establishing a candidate’s Ritual Church is poorly done, if at all. In some instances, this occurs due to a tendency to think that “all Catholics are Latin”; in others, because many Eastern and Oriental Catholics were baptized in Latin parishes (for a whole host of reasons), often without the required notation made that they are of a different Church sui iuris. The latter occurs through ignorance on the part of parents not in touch with their own religious heritage or clergy who never foresaw to inquire or assumed it was of no importance.

Neil,
Sadly this is true. There is even some reluctance to listen to an individual when they speak of this. My formation director continues to tell me that I am Latin because I was baptized and confirmed in a Latin Church and I am living in a Latin order’s house of formation.

I brought up this Canon from the Eastern Code;
Canon 517

1. One is admitted validly to the novitiate of an order or congregation who has completed the seventeenth year of age. In respect to other requirements for admission to the novitiate cann. 448, 450, 452, and 454 shall be observed.
2. No one is admitted lawfully to the novitiate of a religious institute of another Church sui iuris without the permission of the Apostolic See, unless it is a candidate who is destined for a province or house, mentioned in can. 432, of the same Church.

Yet he seemed reluctant to do anything. Luckily the Superior General was doing his visitation of our province at the time so I passed this along to him and he said that he would take care of it.

I spoke with my formation director not long ago and he said that they said there was no need to do so as my baptism and confirmation were done in a Latin Church. This ignores the fact that ritual Church flows from the father and where the sacraments are received does not affect that.

If thing work out (God willing) and I am accepted into the novitiate then I will bring this up with the provincial when he comes for a visit/interview next month.

It is very frustrating.

 

[jackpuffin]

IrishMelkite, my dad was NOT a baptised Catholic, so that’s why I am tracing it from my mom’s side. I’ve never had anyone tell me that I would need to formally switch rites in order to enter a Latin order and become a Latin Rite priest. Is that true? Do I have an obligation to at least look into the Maronite priesthood? I never thought it was that big a deal where I’d have to formally switch rites and all that. Hmmm…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

IrishMelkite, my dad was NOT a baptised Catholic, so that’s why I am tracing it from my mom’s side. I’ve never had anyone tell me that I would need to formally switch rites in order to enter a Latin order and become a Latin Rite priest. Is that true? Do I have an obligation to at least look into the Maronite priesthood? I never thought it was that big a deal where I’d have to formally switch rites and all that. Hmmm…

If your father was not baptized and you were baptized as an infant then I do believe that you trace it though your mother.

But you must know that you do not have to formally change churches (or rites) to enter into a religious order.

Please read my post above. I am a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic and am joining the Carmelites, a Latin religious order. This is allowed as long as Canon 517 of the Eastern Code is followed.

This is why you must truly find out if you belong to the Maronites. If you do and you do not follow Canon 517 of the Eastern Code then your novitiate will be invalid, which would make anything after that (simple vows, permanent vows, any ordinations) in valid as well.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Okay, I’m just throwing this out there mostly because I’m curious;…QUOTE]

Technically, their married men may become priests, not their priests may get married… Marriage has to occur first…

It seems that there is a “would, should, and could” question here.

---

Could you get ordained into the priesthood as a married man in the Maronite Church? ***

Certainly it is possible, if you are either already a Maronite or go through the process of being transferred to the Maronite Church.

Should you get ordained into the priesthood as a married man in the Maronite Church

Here is where it gets a little tricky.

Lets not put the cart before the horse. It may be that God is calling you to this special vocation of married priesthood by helping you to understand this reality - that as a Maronite it could be possible for you…

But, first things first! Lets actually get you to a Maronite Church to experience the people, the spirituality, the liturgical year, the mysteries (Sacraments) etc.

For example, it has always been my desire to live in Europe. I love America and I am proud to be an American, but I love history and the culture of Europe. By seeking priestly ordination as a diocesan priest in Italy or Sweden or France or Hungary I could do just that… But would serving and living over there (as much as priesthood and Euro life appeal to me!) mean I had a vocation to be a parish priest?

I have always hated having to sit down and balance my checkbook. I do it out of necesity, but I am not happy about it. If I were to join a monastery in the deseert I would not have to balance checkbooks or come up with a budget for my household or worry about fixing my car when it breaks down - I would not have one. But however much I hate having to write checks or pay for car repairs does that mean I have a vocation to be a monk?

I rather like traveling the world and always admired my dad for his years as an officer in the US Army. If I joined the Military archdiocese I would be a commissioned officer in the armed services and get to travel a lot… But however much I admire men who serve in the military and get to “see the world” does that mean I have a vocation to become a be a military chaplain?

Now I am not saying that it could not be the case God has planted this seed because He IS calling you to both. In fact that may be the case.

But before discerning Maronite priesthood, it is wise to find out what that would entail. You are aware they have married priests, but are you aware of what the life of a married Maronite priest is like? Could you find a girl that would accept the vocation of being a priest’s wife? When married men become priests, it is not just the man entering a vocation and lifestyle - his wife is also very much involved in parish life and must herself agree to make many sacrifices for her husband’s calling.

Not to dissuade you, but to prepare you for discernment, before signing up for ordination in the ministry of the Maronite Church, or even applying to a formation program, at least a year or two of actively worshipping in a Maronite communitiy would be expected - at minimum.

Now provided you found a woman willing to be the wife of a priest and you found the life of a married priest something you are called to, and you found the spirituality of the Maronites to be part of your calling…

Would you get ordained into the priesthood as a married man in the Maronite Church

At this time I am not aware of the policy of the US bishops of the Maronite Church on the ordination of married men. They may be agreeable to it.

It may also be the case that they do NOT find it agreeable and at this time they are not ordaining married men to the priesthood.

Or they may take candidates who are married or will be married prior to ordination considering:

• Would you and your wife be prepared to serve outside the US?
• Would you be prepared to handle ministry to
  communities that may not speak English?

I have heard that in the wake of the ordination of a Melkite married man (who has served the Melkites as a deacon for 25 years) that there was a flood of inquiries to the Melkite bishop on the part of Latin seminarians about either “switching rites” or “returning to their ancesteral rite” so they could be ordained married priests. The bishop generally looked unfavorably on these inquiries and to my knowledge none of them lead to any ordinations.

In times past men of the Latin church who have sought to circumnavigate the rule of celibacy by joining or seeking admission to Eastern Catholic Churches have been discouraged and refused.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

hmmm… that post ended up being far longer than I expected! I know that you are at this time just posing a theoretical question about if being ordained a priest as a married Maronite… but you get the idea of where I am going with that one!

But I will keep you in my prayers during these years of discernment!

Whatever path God leads you down, may you become a saint traveling it!

 

[jackpuffin]

This is why you must truly find out if you belong to the Maronites. If you do and you do not follow Canon 517 of the Eastern Code then your novitiate will be invalid, which would make anything after that (simple vows, permanent vows, any ordinations) in valid as well.

I don’t think that the ordinations can be invalid, but maybe illicit. I’m not even sure if there’s a way to PROVE for certain that I am Maronite without a lot of digging around. My Grandpa always said we were “Roman” when we got to America, but I know for a fact that my Grandpa wouldn’t have understood the technicalities of switching rites. I mean, we all know my Grandpa’s family was Maronite when they were in Lebanon, but nobody has documents to prove this. I can’t see it being THAT big a deal since my family doesn’t know what rite they are and I’m the only one that knows that it ISN’T by baptism, and my grandpa didn’t know this…and goodness it’s just so convoluted. I told my mom that she was Maronite, and she said “No, I’m not.” And we got into a discussion about why she actually is and why grandpa was and how he couldn’t just say, “We’re Roman.” But then, he did say he was Roman. Maybe he actually DID switch rites. I don’t know. I don’t see how something so impossible to verify could make someone’s ordination invalid or really make THAT big a deal.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I don’t think that the ordinations can be invalid, but maybe illicit.

There is precedent for this. An invalid novitiate makes everything that follows invalid including ordinations. There was a case recently that I am aware of where an invalid novitiate made a man unacceptable for ordination.

But even if that is wrong, it would still make all vows invalid.

I’m not even sure if there’s a way to PROVE for certain that I am Maronite without a lot of digging around. My Grandpa always said we were “Roman” when we got to America, but I know for a fact that my Grandpa wouldn’t have understood the technicalities of switching rites. I mean, we all know my Grandpa’s family was Maronite when they were in Lebanon, but nobody has documents to prove this. I can’t see it being THAT big a deal since my family doesn’t know what rite they are and I’m the only one that knows that it ISN’T by baptism, and my grandpa didn’t know this…and goodness it’s just so convoluted. I told my mom that she was Maronite, and she said “No, I’m not.” And we got into a discussion about why she actually is and why grandpa was and how he couldn’t just say, “We’re Roman.” But then, he did say he was Roman. Maybe he actually DID switch rites. I don’t know. I don’t see how something so impossible to verify could make someone’s ordination invalid or really make THAT big a deal.

If you must dig then I would do so, or I would formally make a change to the Roman Church even if you are unsure that it is necessary just to make sure everything is done correctly. Either that or risk have invalid vows and, possibly, ordinations.

As for the question, can you be a married priest. If you plan to go the Roman route then the answer is no. The answer is also no if you plan to join a religious order no matter what Church you belong to.