Can I be a priest AND get married!?!

[ASimpleSinner]

I don’t think that the ordinations can be invalid, but maybe illicit. I’m not even sure if there’s a way to PROVE for certain that I am Maronite without a lot of digging around. My Grandpa always said we were “Roman” when we got to America, but I know for a fact that my Grandpa wouldn’t have understood the technicalities of switching rites. I mean, we all know my Grandpa’s family was Maronite when they were in Lebanon, but nobody has documents to prove this. I can’t see it being THAT big a deal since my family doesn’t know what rite they are and I’m the only one that knows that it ISN’T by baptism, and my grandpa didn’t know this…and goodness it’s just so convoluted. I told my mom that she was Maronite, and she said “No, I’m not.” And we got into a discussion about why she actually is and why grandpa was and how he couldn’t just say, “We’re Roman.” But then, he did say he was Roman. Maybe he actually DID switch rites. I don’t know. I don’t see how something so impossible to verify could make someone’s ordination invalid or really make THAT big a deal.

Just curious, how are you certain they were Maronites?

Are you basing it on any records? Or going by conjecture given a family name? or that they came from a village that was predominately Maronite?

Latin Catholics have a fairly large presence there. It is entirely possible that your family historically belonged to the Latins… Or that an ancestor who married a Latin and became one(generally the church of the man between two Catholics was the church the children).

Maybe ByzCath knows the canon on this one… (if one exists) but after several generations of participation in the life of a sui juris church on the part of folks who self-identify as members, I think it is generally safe to assume that you are considered a member of that “rite” barring evidence you should be or would belong to a different church.

(That is not to say that four generations of Melkites, for example, worshipping with the Copts would in and of itself make them Copts… but three generations of Melktes who always thought they were Copts and have no evidence they were not… I think the Church would assume you are where you are… I could be wrong.)

It isn’t that you NEED to demonstrate ancesteral ties for a transfer of sui juris churches… You may get permission to simply transfer rather then make an effort to demonstrate you already should belong to the Maronite Church.

Of course if one did have an interest in being ordained to the priesthood as a married man in the Maronite Church, it could possibly be helpful to demonstrate that you were “returning to an ancesteral rite” to assuage concearns some bishops MAY have about ordaining men reared in the Latin Church who are simply trying to circumnavigate the Roman practice of celibacy.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

There is precedent for this. An invalid novitiate makes everything that follows invalid including ordinations. There was a case recently that I am aware of where an invalid novitiate made a man unacceptable for ordination.

But even if that is wrong, it would still make all vows invalid.

David,

That is fascinating to me. I would have thought that an invalid novitiate would not in and of itself render an ordination invalid, perhaps illiciit or irregular.

What are some things that would render a novitiate invalid? I have been unable to find the ECCL online to look up that canon.

Simple

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Maybe ByzCath knows the canon on this one… (if one exists) but after several generations of participation in the life of a sui juris church on the part of folks who self-identify as members, I think it is generally safe to assume that you are considered a member of that “rite” barring evidence you should be or would belong to a different church.

There is no canon for such. Participation and reception of the sacraments do not, ever, change church membership.

(That is not to say that four generations of Melkites, for example, worshipping with the Copts would in and of itself make them Copts… but three generations of Melktes who always thought they were Copts and have no evidence they were not… I think the Church would assume you are where you are… I could be wrong.)

What the problem here is the lack of evidence. If one knows that they are Melkite then they are Melkite but if one can not prove it, then the Church may skimp on this and say you are what ever is best for them.

David,

That is fascinating to me. I would have thought that an invalid novitiate would not in and of itself render an ordination invalid, perhaps illiciit or irregular.

What are some things that would render a novitiate invalid? I have been unable to find the ECCL online to look up that canon.

The usual things, like not being baptized or confirmed.

Which now that I think about it is what caused the case I brought up. I will look into the invalid novitiate due to not following Canon 517 of the Eastern Code.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

There is no canon for such. Participation and reception of the sacraments do not, ever, change church membership.

I worded my response poorly… I did not mean to imply long term participation eventually “turns you into a member” More implying that barring known membership in another particular church, participation for multiple generations would generally lead to assumption that you are a member of where you and your family had been.

Now in working reality if a Latin priest were to be going through his great grandparent’s attic and found out that they were canonical members of the Ukrainian Greek Cath Church and (unknown to him until that point) he under the canons and customs of the church should ALSO be UCGC. I don’t know that he would then be forced to transfer rites officially or shipped off to the Ukrainians…

I do know a province of the Franciscans was about to ordain a priest who was - by virtue of his parents - a canonical Ruthenain Catholic - but had been raised in the Latin Church. This was discovered just prior to his priestly ordination so the Provincial worked out arrangements with the Bishop of Parma to get him ordained as a bi-ritual priest. I believe that the the Byzantin bishop ordained him to the priesthood… He spent a few months learning the liturgy (he was totally unfamiliar with it) in a Byzantine Parish…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I worded my response poorly… I did not mean to imply long term participation eventually “turns you into a member” More implying that barring known membership in another particular church, participation for multiple generations would generally lead to assumption that you are a member of where you and your family had been.

Now in working reality if a Latin priest were to be going through his great grandparent’s attic and found out that they were canonical members of the Ukrainian Greek Cath Church and (unknown to him until that point) he under the canons and customs of the church should ALSO be UCGC. I don’t know that he would then be forced to transfer rites officially or shipped off to the Ukrainians…

I do know a province of the Franciscans was about to ordain a priest who was - by virtue of his parents - a canonical Ruthenain Catholic - but had been raised in the Latin Church. This was discovered just prior to his priestly ordination so the Provincial worked out arrangements with the Bishop of Parma to get him ordained as a bi-ritual priest. I believe that the the Byzantin bishop ordained him to the priesthood… He spent a few months learning the liturgy (he was totally unfamiliar with it) in a Byzantine Parish…

Yes, this makes more sense. I apologize for my response if was taken to be too harsh.

I did some further research/discussion on this matter.

It turns out that jack is correct, an invalid novitiate that is invalid due to this Canon does not invalidate any ordinations. Those ordinations would just be illicit, but that does not change the fact that all vows would be invalid.

Here is a link to the Code of Canons of Oriental Churches.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Of course, something that bears mentioning is that there are an great many priests in the Eastern churches that have stepped forward to embrace and serve Eastern churches, and the fruit of their labor and dedication leaves no question that God ordained this path from their lives.

Like missionaries go to foreign lands, some Latin sons have headed the call to serve the faithful in need belonging to a church that was not the priest’s original home.

Fr. Jack Custer of the Ruthenian Catholic comes to mind… a New Jersey Latin from Irish ancestory, he has served the Ruthenian Church for almost 30 years as a pastor and scholar. Last time I talked to him he spoke 12 languages fluently and could chant the DL in Slavonic in his sleep. Being that I haven’t seen him in ten years, I can’t promise he is not up to 20 languages!

Father Emmanual Charles McCarthy of the Melkite Church started with the Latins. He is now a married priest of the Eparchy of Newton with 9 children. When his daughter - named after Sister Teresia Benedicta (having been born on the anniversary of Edith Stein’s martyrdom) suffered the tragedy of being poisoned, she was cured through the intercession of Sister Teresia Benedicta (Edith Stein). This miracle lead to canonization of St. Teresia Benedicta.

I have also met a Maronite priest who was, years ago, discearning the priesthood as a young Latin Catholic. He had never even heard of the Maronites. After talking to a spiritual director, he was told “You know what, you don’t even know it, but you’re a Maronite spiritually, and that is where you will find a home!”

He replied: “I’m a mara-who?”

The spiritual father assured him “Just trust me, go check them out and you will know!”

30 years of priestly life later he has no doubts the spiritual director was right.

Of course, even laymen, I believe may have the call at times. The president of our parish council was raised Latin but has worshipped with us for 2 decades. He has done much to build and support that parish.

It may be that the Holy Spirit is calling you from your home to serve the Maronites. So go check em out! It never ceases to amaze me what adventures the Holy Spirit sends us on - joyfully go and seek!

Blessings on the journey! May God make a saint out of you yet - wherever you are.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Yes, this makes more sense. I apologize for my response if was taken to be too harsh.

You have no need to apologize! I did not percieve you as being harsh. More accurately, my original post was not clear!

Thank you for posting that link to the ECCL. Much appreciated!

 

[DL82]

Is there not another issue here.

As far as I am aware, married priests in all of the Rites that are in communion with Rome are required to live as brother and sister (i.e. celebately) with their wives after ordination.

This was the apostolic tradition in the West too until the ban on married priests came in.

The Orthodox churches (i.e. the ones who reject the Constantinopolitan additions to the Nicene Creed) don’t follow this tradition, though I’m pretty sure the Eastern Catholic churches do, at least in theory.

Am I wrong on this?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Is there not another issue here.

As far as I am aware, married priests in all of the Rites that are in communion with Rome are required to live as brother and sister (i.e. celebately) with their wives after ordination.

This was the apostolic tradition in the West too until the ban on married priests came in.

The Orthodox churches (i.e. the ones who reject the Constantinopolitan additions to the Nicene Creed) don’t follow this tradition, though I’m pretty sure the Eastern Catholic churches do, at least in theory.

Am I wrong on this?

Short answer?

Yes.

THe cantor at my church, if he had been ordained, would have been 8th generation priest. In the Eastern Orth & Cath churches, married priests DO have families…

Continence from the marital act is expected before the [Mass] begining (I believe) at vespers the night before… so Saturday night dates would end with a kiss. But as one married priest once said with a grin that’s what sunday afternoons are for.

It may not be something Latins are crazy about, but it should be understood (1) it is a part of the Catholic world and (2) the Latin church in the US has FAR MORE married priests and deacons than the Eastern Catholics ever had here. Those of us who have married priests and are comfortable with them, shouldn’t be seen as dissident or “second class” because we are comfortable with it.

I am a radical moderate on this one:

So I guess I will stick to my guns on my radical moderate suggestion:

Retain/Restore/Relax:

1. RETAIN western celibacy while really re-examing and looking at our married diaconate to really fully utilize the great gifts these men have to offer.
2. RESTORE eastern married presbyterate where it has been impeded. Italians always had married priests in the Italo-Greek church in Italy, but these days it has been requested that the Ukrainian Church NOT send married men to minister in Italy to the burgeoning Ukie community there. What’s up with that?
3. RELAX impediments that prevent and preclude married Latins with an inclination from seeking ordination and service to the Eastern Catholic Churches. Right now the Orthodox look on the Eastern Catholic communities and see them as Romans in Greek Robes. One of the sources of scandal they have is not only is are the traditions of the of ancient communities percieved to be suppressed, but the interaction between Latins and Orthodox that have entered into full Union with Rome seem rather subdued and suppressed. Want to prove we mean business about healing the schism? Allow a greater flow and interaction between the east and west (without the dillution of either) and the message will be sent.

I get into trouble with this suggestion, but I think it would not be an AWFUL idea to consider a one-time dispensation allowing priests who left to get married to return to service as deacons. (hides to save my butt)