Can I call myself traditional?

[Lux_Ad_Orientum]

I’ve had them in my sig since I first began discerning five years ago before I discovered the tlm.

Do not pick an ORder that is an enemy of the (True) Mass of All Time!!! I cannot say this strongly enough!! “When I was a child, I played with childish things but when I became a MAN I put childish things behind me” is in the Bible. If you are assisting at the Mass Of All Time you are a Man in the Church and it is time to put childish things behind you!!

 

[Vico]

I’ve had them in my sig since I first began discerning five years ago before I discovered the tlm.

Excellent. Established in 1198. In addition to ransom, they have helped with hospitality, care of the sick and poor, churches, education, evangelization, etc.

The Trinitarian liturgical use has been, from the 1198 Rule of Life, the usage of the Paris Abbey of St-Victor, then later, the Spanish Discalced Rule of 1631 required the usage of the Holy Roman Church.

 

[patrick457]

AdvanceAlways, I can symphatize with your situation here.
Personally, I think that I may be in the traditional side of the spectrum, or at least in the borders of it - I feel that I have an appreciation for the traditions of the Church and I very much dislike the (mis)implementation of VII and the manifold problems it spawned - but at the same time, I’m quite (not so sure about ‘quite’) different from the stereotypical Traditionalist: first of all, I’ve never attended an EF Mass (never having the chance to do so). Yet. I don’t have the same problem as you do with America and all that stuff, because, well, I’m not American and have never set foot in the continent.

And given the attitude of a few folks out there who identify themselves as ‘Traditionalists’ (I’m opening a can of worms here I know, but in my book, I feel that they’re applying to themselves a label they are absolutely not worthy to carry. I’ve been a victim of bullying a number of times in my childhood, and whenever I look at such types, I can’t help but see - dare I say it - outgrown prideful bullies and petulant whiners. But I’d rather not pass any judgment since in my situation it would be trying to take the speck while failing to notice the log in my eye ), there are times when I think I’d rather not have the label or any label at all - save for both ‘Catholic’ and ‘Christian’, which I’ll accept.

But I’ll agree with the other posters: you seem to be a good, traditional Catholic enough!
BTW, please pray for this poor sinner and remember me in the altar of the Lord, will you?

 

[Indyann]

You shouldn’t call yourself anything other than a Catholic.

Here’s a “traditional” pope on the topic. From HH Pope Benedict XV’s encyclical Beatissimi Apostolorum:

“24. It is, moreover, Our will that Catholics should abstain from certain appellations which have recently been brought into use to distinguish one group of Catholics from another. They are to be avoided not only as “profane novelties of words,” out of harmony with both truth and justice, but also because they give rise to great trouble and confusion among Catholics. Such is the nature of Catholicism that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole or as a whole rejected: “This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly; he cannot be saved” (Athanas. Creed). There is no need of adding any qualifying terms to the profession of Catholicism: it is quite enough for each one to proclaim “Christian is my name and Catholic my surname,” only let him endeavour to be in reality what he calls himself.”

This post is so important, that it bears repeating. If one were truly “Traditional”, it would seem that they would heed the words of the Holy Father.

There is no such animal as a “Traditional” Catholic. You can call yourself whatever you please, that does not make it so.

If the Holy Father needs no lable, why should anyone else?

“Christian is my name and Catholic is my surname.”

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Thanks for all the replies. After a lot of prayer and thought, I guess I have come to the conclusion that I can’t call myself a “traditionalist” Catholic for several reasons. Namely, Catholics are Catholics regardless of a label as was previously posted. Another being, for me, personally, there is too much baggage associated with the term. The more I have read, the more it seems that a fair amount (not all) people who apply the label toward themselves, misuse the terms modernist and liberal to refer to anyone who reveres not only the Constitution of the United States and the philosophical principles that founded our country. The amount of stress this has been causing me simply isn’t worth it. I’ve been going to bed each night under the impression that I’m somehow a heretic because I a) support Republican (i dont mean the party) government, b) I vote Republican (the party), c) believe that religious liberty in moderation is a good thing, d) I don’t think Chesterton and Belloc created an infallible economic system, wow this is becoming a rant… sorry y’all…

Anyway, I still love the EF and will continue to attend. I love solid liturgy and I love the Mass of all Time but I will not label myself or box myself into a corner and reject the modern world.

-AA

(I want to make it clear that I’m not slamming trads, I’m reflecting on my own experiences.)

 

[excelsus]

The more I have read, the more it seems that a fair amount (not all) people who apply the label toward themselves, misuse the terms modernist and liberal to refer to anyone who reveres not only the Constitution of the United States and the philosophical principles that founded our country. The amount of stress this has been causing me simply isn’t worth it. I’ve been going to bed each night under the impression that I’m somehow a heretic because I a) support Republican (i dont mean the party) government, b) I vote Republican (the party), c) believe that religious liberty in moderation is a good thing, d) I don’t think Chesterton and Belloc created an infallible economic system, wow this is becoming a rant… sorry y’all…

Remember that it is entirely possible to be patriotic and still wish for changes in your country. In fact, I would say that that is the essence of patriotism - supporting one’s country and, more importantly, wishing the best for it. I wish the best for the United States, and because of that, I implore the United States to acknowledge Christ as the highest king, which would cause great blessings to come upon the country. There is no contradiction in being a patriot and not believing that every idea of the United States is infallible. I consider myself quite a patriot and still believe firmly that “separation of church and state” as it is commonly used today (i.e. one cannot use the fact that unborn children have souls as a legal argument against abortion, homosexual “marriage” is recognized, the Catholic Church is not given state recognition and support, etc.) is, well, a “most pernicious error” (I support the Constitution in its entirety except for that point, which is not to say that I don’t have an affinity for monarchy, because I do (although possibly purely as a matter of ceremony and tradition, and for the fact that many monarchies have been confessional states, because I haven’t decided whether I think it is actually a good form of government) but I do not disdain the government of the United States as you have seen some traditionalists do). That does not interfere whatsoever with my love for this country and my wishing the best for it; in fact it amplifies it as I wish for the United States to recognize the truth as truth, a course of action which would be a great blessing for the United States. If I disliked this country, I would not care whether it recognizes the truth, because I would not care whether the good things that will inevitably follow recognition of the one true faith happen to it.

I suppose this could be summarized as “one can be a patriot and still wish for certain principles of government to be different.” The Constitution, while certainly a great document, is not infallible like the Church’s teachings on faith and morals. I would say that most people probably do wish for governmental changes, albeit wishing for a change in separation of church and state is different because it is not widely contested as some other issues.

(Also, I bet most trads vote Republican, especially when…that…is the alternative, and distributism is only an opinion (although by famous Church members), so don’t let your Catholic credentials be challenged by any opinions related to that, or Franco, or monarchy, or anything that is not an authoritative Church teaching.)

 

[floresco]

And given the attitude of a few folks out there who identify themselves as ‘Traditionalists’ …] there are times when I think I’d rather not have the label or any label at all - save for both ‘Catholic’ and ‘Christian’, which I’ll accept.

Labels are a short cut, a way to summarize one’s views for others. I think the word “traditional” does a good job of summing up how I approach Catholicism, so I use it. Are there other people using that label with whom I disagree or have attitudes I dislike? Yes. And I can say the same of people who call themselves “Catholic” and “Christian” I do not give up my right to those names because of such people.

I dare say there are some unpleasant traditional Catholics, but unpleasantness is not an inherent quality. I see no contradiction in calling myself a trad while trying to be as kind and as reasonable as possible. And if enough people do that, the negative stereotypes may give way to a more positive reality.

 

[patrick457]

Labels are a short cut, a way to summarize one’s views for others. I think the word “traditional” does a good job of summing up how I approach Catholicism, so I use it. Are there other people using that label with whom I disagree or have attitudes I dislike? Yes. And I can say the same of people who call themselves “Catholic” and “Christian” I do not give up my right to those names because of such people.

I dare say there are some unpleasant traditional Catholics, but unpleasantness is not an inherent quality. I see no contradiction in calling myself a trad while trying to be as kind and as reasonable as possible. And if enough people do that, the negative stereotypes may give way to a more positive reality.

This is what I actually hope: that more and more Traditionalists - nay, more and more people in general - would quit acting like overgrown toddlers and be more kind and reasonable. That being said, there are indeed certain times when I can’t help but recite that line: “Lord, save me from your followers.”*
You make a point about labels: there are times when, in our attempt to label ourselves, we tend to over-simplify things, which can lead to even greater confusion. It’s really hard to place ourselves in a single category - since many people belonging in said category can have variances with each other: some minor, some major. Depending on your thinking, this can either be a good or bad thing. Another disadvantage is that labelling oneself can sometimes foster an ‘us vs. them’ mentality: in the case of the Church, the Body of Christ is being divided.
That said, I never really liked to be pigeonholed in one single label anyways. Not that I think labeling oneself is bad, just that one is rather inadequate.

• Salva me, Domine, ex discipulis tuis (?)

 

[MarkThompson]

• Salva me, Domine, ex discipulis tuis (?)

A discipulis tuis, I would think.

 

[patrick457]

A discipulis tuis, I would think.

Sure reminds me of the Salva me ab ore leonis in Umberto Eco’s The Name of the Rose (where the Vulgate has ex ore leonis).

Which reminds me of another quote from the same work: “Legions of scholars have wondered whether Christ laughed. The question doesn’t interest me much. I believe he never laughed, because, omniscient as the son of God had to be, he knew how we Christians would behave.”

 

[floresco]

Another disadvantage is that labelling oneself can sometimes foster an ‘us vs. them’ mentality: in the case of the Church, the Body of Christ is being divided.
That said, I never really liked to be pigeonholed in one single label anyways. Not that I think labeling oneself is bad, just that one is rather inadequate.

I agree that there can be a downside to using labels. We need to apply them with caution.

 

[Vico]

In the case of Us v Them:

O Lord, Pour out your love upon our friends and upon our enemies and grant eternal rest to all those deperted in faith, through Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[patrick457]

In the case of Us v Them:

O Lord, Pour out your love upon our friends and upon our enemies and grant eternal rest to all those deperted in faith, through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Amen.