Can I cut them off?

[twoangels]

More drama with my brother’s fiance’. The sum of it is that when we were visiting my parents for Christmas, she tried several ways to pick a fight with me till she succeeded by rehashing and tell half truths about things I said to her 3 years ago. I got defensive and overall I am very sick of this rollar coaster with her. I’m sick of her acting like I owe her something and that she’s being merciful or something by letting me back into her graces. And being in her gracies simply means that she can call you any time of the day to dump her pity party stories on. And if you’re not calling her daily as well to listen to her and to apologise and tell her how horrible you are and how you don’t deserve her, well then she has every right to remind you that you are a horrible friend that doesn’t deserve her. I’m so sick of this nonsense, so I finally told her that I don’t trust her. I made it as plain as day that the only reason she has any contact with me is because she is my brother’s fiance and thus an entering member of the family. She needed to just accept peaceful civility and to stop trying to get more than that out of me. To stop myself from saying further blunt statements (mainly at my mother’s urging. She kept insisting we were both in the wrong) I threw my hands up and apologised for whatever happened 3 years ago and for the hurtful things I said that night. I then left in tears fuming mad at her.

Well, then my brother’s fiance’ went home and seemingly lied to my brother about what happened. It seems she gave him a pitty party story about how I chewed her out and blamed her for the fact that he and I aren’t very close. So my brother decides to call me. I wish him Merry Christmas and he proceeds to start cussing me out till I hang up the phone. Since I wouldn’t listen to him cussing me out on the phone, he then proceeded to write me an email explaining to me that the reason he hates me has nothing to do with his fiance’ and that he has always hated me. He told me if I would just look in the mirror, I’d realize I’m a very bad person that no one wants to be friends with and how till he met his fiance’, he never realized a person could be nice enough to actually try to be my friend.

The thing is, every time my brother’s fiance’ pulls stunts like this, she avoids us for a few months until she starts working to renew contact with me and starts trying to butter me up with praises, conversions, etc. I’m sick of this! It seems impossible to be civil with her. So I’m asking, if she starts trying to seek this fake reconcilation again, can I refuse? Can I tell my parents that when we visit, my brother fiance’ is not welcomed to come near us? Can I be the one causing this division and insisting on this division in the family?

 

[Trishie]

Can I be the one causing this division and insisting on this division in the family?

I don’t think so. You’ve two people there who don’t love you.
Don’t start believing them.
The girl is possibly keen to be liked and sometimes can’t stand that there is someone who doesn’t like or trust her,
but she can’t sustain a relationship that results in trust and liking.
She’s very insecure, isn’t she.

I don’t know how you should handle the family issue.
Your parents naturally would wish for family unity and peace.
What you can actually do to help things, no one who doesn’t know you or the others, and no one who can’t carefully observe the interactions, can tell you what is actually occurring and what to do about it

 

[Gordon_Sims]

So I’m asking, if she starts trying to seek this fake reconcilation again, can I refuse?

I’d say absolutely. Jesus said we need to love our neighbors; he never said anything about having to like them. I wouldn’t tell you parents to keep you all separated when visiting, though; I’d simply make it clear that you won’t be there when they’re there.

My wife and I decided to quit going to family gatherings for one side of my family. We’ve endured various degrees of abuse from them for nearly 20 years, but things have gotten much worse over the last 2-3 years. It finally reached a boiling point, and instead of returning the same sort of behavior, I decided that it wasn’t healthy having my wife & kids around them. This was the first Christmas that we did not attend and it was great! We had a wonderful day together as a family. There was no stress; nobody made rude comments about my wife’s pregnancy or our sex lives; nobody told our kids that we were bad parents; nobody made fun of or shunned our daughters because they refuse to engage in the same vulgar activities that the others were engaging in, and we didn’t have to expose our kids to a bunch of 30 to 40-somethings drinking themselves into oblivion. (Curiously enough, without us there, the abuse that had been directed at us these last few years was redirected at another family member who had gotten a bit of a pass for a while, and she ended up leaving the party in tears.)

If these family members of yours are incapable of treating you like family and you have done what you can to make amends, I see no reason to put yourself through it further. They know how to contact you should they change their minds.

 

[Tietjen]

So I’m asking, if she starts trying to seek this fake reconcilation again, can I refuse?

I’m a firm believer in forgiving when someone asks to be forgiven. So, if I were in your situation, I’d forgive if THEY asked for forgiveness. I say THEY, because your brother was WAAAAY out of line with what he said. Personally, I could care less what a nonfamily member (the fiancée) thinks, but family members being so hateful is unacceptable.

Can I tell my parents that when we visit, my brother fiance’ is not welcomed to come near us?

No, the tension in your parents home would be unbearable and my suspicion is that she (the fiancée) wouldn’t respect your request anyway. Besides, it’s your parent’s home and they are the rule makers. Again, if I were in that situation, I would probably avoid visits when my brother and his fiancée are there.

Can I be the one causing this division and insisting on this division in the family?

There are always two-sides to every story so, it is possible. However, regardless of what transpired, if your brother used the words that you said he did, he is absolutely wrong. I am a father of three adult men. They were all raised under three primary house rules (it’s part of my signature below)…

1. Nothing against God
   2. Nothing against Family
2. Nothing against the law

Family comes second only after God. Everything should be done on your part to NOT cause a division in your family. However, that does not mean that you need to be targeted by your brother and his fiancée. If they are unable or unwilling to be civil, then I would avoid them.

 

[Lonely_guy]

Yes,you can cut them off. I reckon you have done your best and the outcome is pretty much zero I see no other way if you like to stay sane. But pray one more time and ask for guidance. It can’t hurt and maybe God give you something that may ease and maybe,and I mean maybe,defuse the situation. You see,once you cut them off it really is for ever. (And that is a very long time.) So pray in strong faith and God will provide you with the answer that is correct. I will remember you in my prayers.

 

[tbcrawford]

Family relations can often be difficult and challenging. Trishie has quite rightly commented that unless someone carefully observes the exact interactions it is difficult for us to comment.
So without being involved,if it were me I would seek to resolve things.

Instead of waiting for her (she may not even do it) to request a ‘false’ reconciliation,why don’t you be the one to offer resolution.
Perhaps you could arrange a meeting with witnesses and express how you dislike upset in the family so can we put this behind us all?
If she refuses it shows you have done the right thing and she has rebuked your efforts.
If she accepts…great …but avoid regular telephone calls or contact of any kind between you both going forward.

I use the expression ‘loving from a distance’.

We are called to love and forgive each other which is a really hard challenge most especially when people hurt us.
When people have done this to me this is the position I take.I have minimal interaction with them,but love them and pray for them, thus avoiding the opportunity to fall out with them.
I hope this can work for you…it is so hard when people hurt us.

Gid bless

 

[Lonely_guy]

Family relations can often be difficult and challenging. Trishie has quite rightly commented that unless someone carefully observes the exact interactions it is difficult for us to comment.
So without being involved,if it were me I would seek to resolve things.

Instead of waiting for her (she may not even do it) to request a ‘false’ reconciliation,why don’t you be the one to offer resolution.
Perhaps you could arrange a meeting with witnesses and express how you dislike upset in the family so can we put this behind us all?
If she refuses it shows you have done the right thing and she has rebuked your efforts.
If she accepts…great …but avoid regular telephone calls or contact of any kind between you both going forward.

I use the expression ‘loving from a distance’.

We are called to love and forgive each other which is a really hard challenge most especially when people hurt us.
When people have done this to me this is the position I take.I have minimal interaction with them,but love them and pray for them, thus avoiding the opportunity to fall out with them.
I hope this can work for you…it is so hard when people hurt us.

Gid bless

This is a bit of the chart but I come from a family where everyone hated everyone so I know how it is. I did cut them off,and it was the best I have done. I might be very lonely with only my dog but very very happy. I have forgiven them a long time ago,but I also must protect my self so therefore I have little or non contact. It is wrong,against me,I never started the whole thing except for being born. I don’t hate them,but they hate me. Even my children avoid me when ever possible. So I think I know what I am talking about,for once in my rotten life.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

You cannot control her behavior (or your brother’s), only your reaction to it. You say she tried to pick a fight with you, and you eventually succumbed. That is the behavior you can control, don’t let her rile you up.

How many people are at your family gatherings? If it’s a lot, simply don’t speak to her except in general conversation. If it’s just a few, it should actually be easier to avoid her fights since everyone is probably together all the time. After a few remarks to change the subject, everyone will soon be on to a different discussion.

Who is likely to believe her half-truths anyway? Your parents should know you better. Will you other family? If you stay calm and behavior normally, she’s the one that people will realize is stirring up trouble.

Of course, you don’t need to listen to cursing. And you don’t need to read or reply to your brother’s emails until he calms down. God bless you in this trouble.

 

[twoangels]

Maybe I should add that my brother’s fiance’ is mentally ill. She demands so much attention from people that even if they are legimately too busy to give her attention, she will resent them and try to get even with them. She pulls out every stop to guilt people into giving her more attention. If she’s not getting attention from you, she is pushing your buttons to try to get you to do something so that she can use how you treated her to get attention from someone else. My parents’ philosphy has been to attempt to appease her to attempt to not lose contact with their youngest son. We are all very concerned about him and we all know that when he realizes what she is doing that his fall is going to be a hard one and that he’s going to need lots of help and probably lots of counciling.

My parents right now are indicating that they’ve finally realized their strategy of appeasing her is the wrong one, but we all very easily feel guilty cutting people off and feel obligated to forgive people as soon as they ask. So she can hate us and cut us off, but if she tries to get back in, we feel obligated to let her in. I’m sure that’s why my brother has remained with her for so long. All her previous boyfriends seemed to have common sense to let her go within a couple of months.

I’ve tried to establish firm boundaries with her and have tried to keep the peace. She continues to play these games. I’m wondering if I can call her on these games when she tries to return and tell her “No, I’ve had enough.”

 

[ringil]

More drama with my brother’s fiance’. The sum of it is that when we were visiting my parents for Christmas, she tried several ways to pick a fight with me till she succeeded by rehashing and tell half truths about things I said to her 3 years ago. I got defensive and overall I am very sick of this rollar coaster with her. I’m sick of her acting like I owe her something and that she’s being merciful or something by letting me back into her graces. And being in her gracies simply means that she can call you any time of the day to dump her pity party stories on. And if you’re not calling her daily as well to listen to her and to apologise and tell her how horrible you are and how you don’t deserve her, well then she has every right to remind you that you are a horrible friend that doesn’t deserve her. I’m so sick of this nonsense, so I finally told her that I don’t trust her. I made it as plain as day that the only reason she has any contact with me is because she is my brother’s fiance and thus an entering member of the family. She needed to just accept peaceful civility and to stop trying to get more than that out of me. To stop myself from saying further blunt statements (mainly at my mother’s urging. She kept insisting we were both in the wrong) I threw my hands up and apologised for whatever happened 3 years ago and for the hurtful things I said that night. I then left in tears fuming mad at her.

Well, then my brother’s fiance’ went home and seemingly lied to my brother about what happened. It seems she gave him a pitty party story about how I chewed her out and blamed her for the fact that he and I aren’t very close. So my brother decides to call me. I wish him Merry Christmas and he proceeds to start cussing me out till I hang up the phone. Since I wouldn’t listen to him cussing me out on the phone, he then proceeded to write me an email explaining to me that the reason he hates me has nothing to do with his fiance’ and that he has always hated me. He told me if I would just look in the mirror, I’d realize I’m a very bad person that no one wants to be friends with and how till he met his fiance’, he never realized a person could be nice enough to actually try to be my friend.

The thing is, every time my brother’s fiance’ pulls stunts like this, she avoids us for a few months until she starts working to renew contact with me and starts trying to butter me up with praises, conversions, etc. I’m sick of this! It seems impossible to be civil with her. So I’m asking, if she starts trying to seek this fake reconcilation again, can I refuse? Can I tell my parents that when we visit, my brother fiance’ is not welcomed to come near us? Can I be the one causing this division and insisting on this division in the family?

Sounds like a positively delightful Christmas get together!!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Maybe I should add that my brother’s fiance’ is mentally ill. She demands so much attention from people that even if they are legimately too busy to give her attention, she will resent them and try to get even with them. She pulls out every stop to guilt people into giving her more attention. If she’s not getting attention from you, she is pushing your buttons to try to get you to do something so that she can use how you treated her to get attention from someone else. My parents’ philosphy has been to attempt to appease her to attempt to not lose contact with their youngest son. We are all very concerned about him and we all know that when he realizes what she is doing that his fall is going to be a hard one and that he’s going to need lots of help and probably lots of counciling.

My parents right now are indicating that they’ve finally realized their strategy of appeasing her is the wrong one, but we all very easily feel guilty cutting people off and feel obligated to forgive people as soon as they ask. So she can hate us and cut us off, but if she tries to get back in, we feel obligated to let her in. I’m sure that’s why my brother has remained with her for so long. All her previous boyfriends seemed to have common sense to let her go within a couple of months.

I’ve tried to establish firm boundaries with her and have tried to keep the peace. She continues to play these games. I’m wondering if I can call her on these games when she tries to return and tell her “No, I’ve had enough.”

Sounds like a family meeting is in order. You and your parents, and any other siblings, need to decide on a common response to her behavior. Sounds like calling her on her up and down behavior is required.

Then you all need to let your brother know what you’ve decided. Best to let your parents lead this meeting, but you should all be there. Not to gang up on him, but to show that you all care about him. Since he is serious about her, you also need to encourage him to make sure she gets the medical attention she requires. Since pre-cana prep includes compatibility test and the like, it’s the perfect time for him to insist on conselling.

Hopefully that will get her the help she needs and also ensure that your brother knows you care about him and aren’t just ganging up on his finace because you don’t like her. That said, people with most mental illnesses, can still be polite, especially if they are getting the proper care for their illness.

 

[horselvr]

You might be wasting way too much energy on all this.

More than likely, sooner than later, she will eventually start to grate on your brothers nerves too as she is on the rest of the family. He’ll dump her and the whole family will breath a collective sigh of relief.

Try to stay on good terms with your brother. He has found himself between a hard spot and a rock and will need you later.

 

[Trishie]

A family meeting that includes the brother could cause him to close off from the family and drive him deeper into the relationship without any lifelines to family. He may not be not emotionally healthy enough to handle rational family discussion.

Recall that the OP stated in her opening post,

"*Since I wouldn’t listen to him cussing me out on the phone, he then proceeded to write me an email explaining to me that the reason he hates me has nothing to do with his fiancée’ and that he has always hated me. He told me if I would just look in the mirror, I’d realize I’m a very bad person that no one wants to be friends with and how till he met his fiancée’, he never realized a person could be nice enough to actually try to be my friend. *

This isn’t the first time that the OP has posted that her brother’s fiancée has gone home to him and convinced him falsely of his sister’s ‘nastiness’.

Her brother is part of the problem. And the girl’s emotional issues may tie in to his own issues. She’s very needy and clingy, maybe he ‘needs’ that. The very fact that the girl is what some would call ‘damaged’ may tie closely in his need to be needed. Who is more needy than an insecure person who is inclined to be irrational?
If he feels that the whole family is united against him and his fiancée then he it is possible that he is likely to be more confirmed in “them against us” and become more entangled in his relationship with her. **The family needs to be wise and united in how they handle things, **but a family meeting involving the couple could potentially be disastrous. The OP and her family need wise advice on this from an informed source that is aware of all the issues. And our prayers.

 

[EasterJoy]

I grew up where everyone knew everyone, everyone was related to everyone somehow, and everyone was going to know everyone for the next 50 years. Your grandparents knew their grandparents, your grandchildren would know theirs, and that was the way it was. The possibility of “cutting someone off” was very limited, and everyone knew it. Nobody was perfect, some were a lot better than others, and everyone knew that, too.

People such as you are describing were dealt with by gracefully refusing to engage them. If such a person were to tell you how horrible you were, you might respond with, “I do have my faults. That must be very hard for you” or more simply, “I’m sorry you’re upset by that.” When they start demanding how you’re going to change, you might say, “Well, I guess we’ll see.” And that’s it. When someone comes to you with half-truths, you just say, “Yes, I’ve heard she said things like that about me.” And that’s all.

You don’t bother defending yourself from someone like that and you don’t choose your behavior as a reaction to hers. Rather, you conduct yourself according to your own lights and you let the rest run off your back.

 

[tbcrawford]

This is a bit of the chart but I come from a family where everyone hated everyone so I know how it is. I did cut them off,and it was the best I have done. I might be very lonely with only my dog but very very happy. I have forgiven them a long time ago,but I also must protect my self so therefore I have little or non contact. It is wrong,against me,I never started the whole thing except for being born. I don’t hate them,but they hate me. Even my children avoid me when ever possible. So I think I know what I am talking about,for once in my rotten life.

Hi Lonely guy
I am so sorry your family has been like this.It sounds like you have done something very positive and love them from a distance.
Good for you forgiving them.That is certainly very hard to do.
I completely agree with you that you shoudl protect yourself and that is my intention to the OP that she can resolve things then keep her distance for her own protection.
Sadly sometimes it is the best way .
I am sorry that you suffered.I pray that you and the OP will feel comfort from God and His love for you.

God bless you

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

I’d say absolutely. Jesus said we need to love our neighbors; he never said anything about having to like them. I wouldn’t tell you parents to keep you all separated when visiting, though; I’d simply make it clear that you won’t be there when they’re there.

Mmm, and He never said anything about letting every abusive person treat you like a doormat, either. I think the OP has every reason in the world to cut off contact with the miscreants involved.

 

[Bearontherun]

So I’m asking, if she starts trying to seek this fake reconcilation again, can I refuse?

Jesus said we must forgive not seven but seventy-seven times.
Hard as it may be, I think that you must remain open to reconciliation.

You are in my prayers.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

A family meeting that includes the brother could cause him to close off from the family and drive him deeper into the relationship without any lifelines to family. He may not be not emotionally healthy enough to handle rational family discussion.

Recall that the OP stated in her opening post,

"*Since I wouldn’t listen to him cussing me out on the phone, he then proceeded to write me an email explaining to me that the reason he hates me has nothing to do with his fiancée’ and that he has always hated me. He told me if I would just look in the mirror, I’d realize I’m a very bad person that no one wants to be friends with and how till he met his fiancée’, he never realized a person could be nice enough to actually try to be my friend. *

This isn’t the first time that the OP has posted that her brother’s fiancée has gone home to him and convinced him falsely of his sister’s ‘nastiness’.

Her brother is part of the problem. And the girl’s emotional issues may tie in to his own issues. She’s very needy and clingy, maybe he ‘needs’ that. The very fact that the girl is what some would call ‘damaged’ may tie closely in his need to be needed. Who is more needy than an insecure person who is inclined to be irrational?
If he feels that the whole family is united against him and his fiancée then he it is possible that he is likely to be more confirmed in “them against us” and become more entangled in his relationship with her. **The family needs to be wise and united in how they handle things, **but a family meeting involving the couple could potentially be disastrous. The OP and her family need wise advice on this from an informed source that is aware of all the issues. And our prayers.

I was not aware of this background. The question to me then becomes, is the brother’s behavior soley his own? Was he like this before the girlfriend? And how do her parents and other family members react to him?

It may be that the OP just needs to steer clear of her brother and his girlfriend as much as possible.The advice from EasterJoy, below, is how I would handle it as much as possible.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was not aware of this background. The question to me then becomes, is the brother’s behavior soley his own? Was he like this before the girlfriend? And how do her parents and other family members react to him?

It may be that the OP just needs to steer clear of her brother and his girlfriend as much as possible.The advice from EasterJoy, below, is how I would handle it as much as possible.

Exactly!!! I did not mean to say the OP can’t avoid the brother or his girlfriend when it is clear that reconcilation is not in the immediate future. You don’t mend fences by looking for trouble. Rather, if you do that, you just dig the hole you’re in a little deeper.

It is also better not to get too worked up about what people guilty of rash judgement think of the situation. The real situation is more important than the seeming situation, and the real situation usually wants a lot less self-defense and a lot more patience and keeping one’s mouth shut than the seeming situation tempts one to do.

 

[twoangels]

I was not aware of this background. The question to me then becomes, is the brother’s behavior soley his own? Was he like this before the girlfriend?

When he hit his teen years, he went back and forth between being terribly rude to us and being really sweet and socialable. That may have been the drugs, though he’s also been known to butter people up to try to get things out of them. So yes he was like this before. When they started dating, he started going to daily Mass, apparently got off the drugs and started being real friendly to the family. That lasted a month.

And how do her parents and other family members react to him?

My parents? He says you don’t accept me, they get filled with guilt and try to compromise with him to proove their love to him. During his teen years, their form of discipline was sitting down and having a talk with him. If he nodded and seemed enlightened, there would be no consequences for his actions. My sister always said that he was deceiving them and was constantly upset about it, but they insisted he wasn’t. I know my Mom just about burst into tears when it came to my brother’s graduation party. My parents’ had always rented a tent that we put in the yard for the party and the year my brother graduated they couldn’t afford it. Mom was so afraid that my brother would think that she didn’t love him as well as the rest of us. My brother didn’t even seem to care. He seemed more annoyed that he had to sit through the “boring” graduation party his parents’ arranged for him.

Since he’s gotten engaged, they’ve in many ways compromised their moral principals to attempt to stay connected to him. They’ve allowed his fiance’ to move in with them, pretty much abuse them. They then got angry when my parents’ gave them stipulations for contributing financially for a wedding. They then moved out without moving their stuff out and moved back in without even asking my parents. My parents never confronted them on this, but when my brother and his fiance demanded they be reimbursed rent money for the weeks they weren’t sleeping their, my parents wrote them a check.

As for the rest of my family, we all do not want anything to do with my brothers’ fiance’ and primarily live under constant pressure from my mom. Its this pressure of “Please don’t be a part of the cause that takes my son away from me.”

Granted, I think my brother’s fiance’ and my brother finally made too public of a mistake. I did just get an apology from my parents for the fact that they did not nip this in the bud when they should have. My mom finally seems to be realizing that she’s playing into a game and that she finally needs to let go of her son and let him make his own mistakes.

My husband just isn’t sure this is going to last. Usually the fiance’ comes back after a few months and tries to proove to my parents’ that she’s changed and wants to reconcile. If my Mom goes for that, that means I’m under pressure to appease them. So the thing is, can I just tell Mom “no! Enough. I don’t want contact with them. I don’t want to open myself up to being hurt more and more and I don’t want to continue to live with the constant pressure to attend a wedding that I think has a million and one reasons that make it invalid!”