Can I disagree with the Vatican ?

[TheBreak]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I’m Christian first, Catholic second, I’m proud and thankful that God made me Christian and lead me to become Catholic. But I have an issue that I would like to address.

I’m very opinionated person, what is in my mind I say it, when I see or hear something I disagree with I go into long conversation about it. I disagree with The Catholic church at many issues, maybe these issues and that not big deal but I would like to address them.

LGBT rights, Believing that Non-Catholics are not going to heaven, Taking The Bible theologically too much, for example, I don’t believe that the Book of Genesis is just theological book, I believe that Evolution happened but human beings are made exactly the way God said in the Bible and that Adam and Eve are first human beings. And other issues.

So, I used to support abortion but I’ve changed my mind about it. But I don’t think I will change my mind about these issues above.

So, Do I need to feel " guilty " because I disagree with the Church, I started feeling like I’m an outsider, something inside me telling me that I’m not going to be accepted by The Catholic Church because of my opinions and that started effecting my everyday prays and beliefs.

 

[1ke]

I think that, first of all, you should learn what the Church actually teaches and not what you think it teaches-- which appears to be mostly inaccurate.

However, to answer your questions, no you are not free to dissent from or “disagree with” actual Church doctrine or dogma. They require your assent.

 

[TheBreak]

I think that, first of all, you should learn what the Church actually teaches and not what you think it teaches-- which appears to be mostly inaccurate.

However, to answer your questions, no you are not free to dissent from or “disagree with” actual Church doctrine or dogma. They require your assent.

Well, About Same-sex marriage of course I don’t need to know because it is clear that the church is against it and that is fine for me but I also have the right to disagree.

About Non-Catholics not go to heaven, I remember reading a book by Catholic Bishop who said that according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, I can’t recall where exactly, but it said that The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus Christ established and therefor who are not Catholic will not be saved.

About you answer, Do you mean that I should just obey the Catholic Church with everything? What about the millions of Catholic who disagree with the Church ? What about The Catholic Gays ? What about the Catholic nuns that I heard of in America of being liberal nuns ? All these are NOT Catholics ?

 

[1ke]

the church is against it and that is fine for me but I also have the right to disagree.

No, what you have asked is. do you have the right to disagree, and the answer to that is no.

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. ... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

About Non-Catholics not go to heaven, I remember reading a book by Catholic Bishop who said that according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, I can’t recall where exactly, but it said that The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus Christ established and therefor who are not Catholic will not be saved.

So, again, I suggest that you learn what the Church actually teaches.

, Do you mean that I should just obey the Catholic Church with everything?

yes, if by everything you mean doctrines. You are free to disagree with what time your pastor establishes for Mass, whether or not the Church hall is painted green, or any other number of things that are not doctrinal.

What about the millions of Catholic who disagree with the Church ?

What about them?

We all stand alone on judgment day.

What about The Catholic Gays ?

what about them?

What about the Catholic nuns that I heard of in America of being liberal nuns ?

what about them?

All these are NOT Catholics ?

No, they are simply confused, miguided, sinful, or any other number of adjectives depending upon their knowledge and will in the matter.

 

[JM3]

CCC

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:
Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. the education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

 

[bzkoss236]

I am Catholic and Christian first, because I view them as the same thing.

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded and that Christ is always with His Church, then if you disagree with the Church, you disagree with Christ. And if you disagree with Christ, then you are putting faith in something that is opposed to God’s will.

 

[KrazyKat]

I am Catholic and Christian first, because I view them as the same thing.

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded and that Christ is always with His Church, then if you disagree with the Church, you disagree with Christ. And if you disagree with Christ, then you are putting faith in something that is opposed to God’s will.

Nicely stated.

 

[Corki]

Well, About Same-sex marriage of course I don’t need to know because it is clear that the church is against it and that is fine for me but I also have the right to disagree.

Depending on what country you live in, you may have a **civil right **to disagree but you don’t have a religous right, as a Catholic, to disagree with definative teaching on matters of faith an morals.

With regard to same-sex “marriage” specifically, you do not have the “right”, religiously, to approve of or support same-sex “marriage”. You can disagree about **the best method **to overcome the insinuaton of same-sex “marriage” into our culture but you cannot disagree that it is a moral evil that must be opposed.

In general practice, you are free to disagree with anything that is strictly a discipline such as whether married men should become priests or whether a fast should be required before Communion. You can disagree with any of the small “t” traditions such as what color the vestments for each season should be or whether we sit or stand for the homily in Mass. And you may disagree with the best way to implement Church teaching. For example, you cannot disagree that we must care for the poor but you can disagree with anyone, even clergy on the best way to do that.

Of course, disagreeing doesn’t mean you aren’t Catholic but it means that you are out of full communion with the Church by means of your dissent.

About you answer, Do you mean that I should just obey the Catholic Church with everything? What about the millions of Catholic who disagree with the Church ?

Yes, you must obey the Church and follow her teachings. As for those groups you mentioned, they are not faithfully practicing Catholics but they are still Catholics.

What about The Catholic Gays ?

The Church is very accepting of people with homosexuality. This is a non-issue. Being “gay” doesn’t mean that a person disagrees with the Church.

What about the Catholic nuns that I heard of in America of being liberal nuns ? All these are NOT Catholics

As for the nuns you mentioned, the Church has no teacihng that says you can’t be liberal. There are lots of liberal Catholics (including nuns) who assent completely to Church teaching.

 

[Dorothy]

God knows what is in the hearts of non-Catholic Christians, and whether they are culpable of ignoring what they suspect may be the true Church. (Catholicism).

Perhaps the priest who said what he did about only Catholics being saved did not explain too accurately.

Non-Catholics may be saved if they cooperate with the grace God gives them. If I understand correctly, that grace comes through the Catholic Church.

This is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

#846 “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” (Please read on)

#847 "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church;
'Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation.'

 

[zz912]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I’m Christian first, Catholic second, I’m proud and thankful that God made me Christian and lead me to become Catholic. But I have an issue that I would like to address.

I’m very opinionated person, what is in my mind I say it, when I see or hear something I disagree with I go into long conversation about it. I disagree with The Catholic church at many issues, maybe these issues and that not big deal but I would like to address them.

LGBT rights, Believing that Non-Catholics are not going to heaven, Taking The Bible theologically too much, for example, I don’t believe that the Book of Genesis is just theological book, I believe that Evolution happened but human beings are made exactly the way God said in the Bible and that Adam and Eve are first human beings. And other issues.

So, I used to support abortion but I’ve changed my mind about it. But I don’t think I will change my mind about these issues above.

So, Do I need to feel " guilty " because I disagree with the Church, I started feeling like I’m an outsider, something inside me telling me that I’m not going to be accepted by The Catholic Church because of my opinions and that started effecting my everyday prays and beliefs.

You MUST agree with the Church on matters related to faith and morals that the Church has definitively declared. From your list, you should seriously educate yourself about the faith, because it is obvious you don’t know the faith that well, especially about the topics you brought up.

On other matters, you are free to disagree with the Church, but on matters related to faith and morals, you cannot.

In the topics listed, let’s take a look:

LGBT rights - by “rights”, if you mean that they deserve the same rights to freedom and respect that all people deserve, then you are in agreement with the Church. This is what she teaches. If by “rights”, you mean so-called gay “marriage”, there is simply no such thing. God has declared that marriage is between one man and one woman. Christians must assent to this teaching.

Believing that non-Catholics are going to Heaven - The Church teaches that those outside the Church MAY be saved, if they, through no fault of their own, tried to live as God wishes and did not know about His Church. The Church teaches that they will be saved by God through the Catholic Church, through a process we do not know yet. If they know the Catholic Church is His Church, and actively reject His Church, they cannot be saved.

Book of Genesis - the Church has long held that the creation accounts are most likely metaphorical stories showing the power, order, and intent of God to create the universe, and are not literalistic historical records. The Church allows the freedom to believe in a universe that is 6 billion years old, or a universe 6,000 years old. The Church only requires that we believe that Adam and Eve WERE real people that committed Original Sin. We aren’t required to view the creation story as a literalistic history book. We are also free to believe in evolution, as long as we acknowledge that Adam and Eve were real, and that God created all creation.

Abortion - I’m glad your views are more in line with the Church. Hopefully you will keep an open mind on these other topics, find out what the Church REALLY TEACHES, and then work to understand WHY the Church teaches these things.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

“Assent” is the best word used to describe the situation.

God gives us brains to use, and most people at some point in their life are not going to completely agree without doubt every doctrine or dogma. However, it is important to assent to such things to the best of our God-given abilities.

 

[donna369]

i, too, had problems with many of the churches teachings in the beginning. i didn’t understand the differences between Tradition and tradition. i looked in the bible occasionally and asked my mom questions; but i didn’t really know stuff.
now i am taking a closer look at my faith, not because i have doubt or disagreement but because i feel a true need to know rather than blindly follow. you should do the same. i have been studying various topics through agapebiblestudy.com/
i suggest you do the same and start with the various topics first. there’re at the end of the list, then you could go back to the top and study the books of the bible.
God Bless

 

[on_the_hill]

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded and that Christ is always with His Church, then if you disagree with the Church, you disagree with Christ. And if you disagree with Christ, then you are putting faith in something that is opposed to God’s will.

Well…yeah…but that’s a broad brush. I don’t disagree with Christ, but I’m not sure men always get it right.

 

[StuMondo]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I’m Christian first, Catholic second, I’m proud and thankful that God made me Christian and lead me to become Catholic. But I have an issue that I would like to address.

I’m very opinionated person, what is in my mind I say it, when I see or hear something I disagree with I go into long conversation about it. I disagree with The Catholic church at many issues, maybe these issues and that not big deal but I would like to address them.

LGBT rights, Believing that Non-Catholics are not going to heaven, Taking The Bible theologically too much, for example, I don’t believe that the Book of Genesis is just theological book, I believe that Evolution happened but human beings are made exactly the way God said in the Bible and that Adam and Eve are first human beings. And other issues.

So, I used to support abortion but I’ve changed my mind about it. But I don’t think I will change my mind about these issues above.

So, Do I need to feel " guilty " because I disagree with the Church, I started feeling like I’m an outsider, something inside me telling me that I’m not going to be accepted by The Catholic Church because of my opinions and that started effecting my everyday prays and beliefs.

Taken straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[TeenageConvert]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I’m Christian first, Catholic second, I’m proud and thankful that God made me Christian and lead me to become Catholic. But I have an issue that I would like to address.

I’m very opinionated person, what is in my mind I say it, when I see or hear something I disagree with I go into long conversation about it. I disagree with The Catholic church at many issues, maybe these issues and that not big deal but I would like to address them.

LGBT rights, Believing that Non-Catholics are not going to heaven, Taking The Bible theologically too much, for example, I don’t believe that the Book of Genesis is just theological book, I believe that Evolution happened but human beings are made exactly the way God said in the Bible and that Adam and Eve are first human beings. And other issues.

So, I used to support abortion but I’ve changed my mind about it. But I don’t think I will change my mind about these issues above.

So, Do I need to feel " guilty " because I disagree with the Church, I started feeling like I’m an outsider, something inside me telling me that I’m not going to be accepted by The Catholic Church because of my opinions and that started effecting my everyday prays and beliefs.

First of all we do not believe that non Catholic people don’t go to Heaven. We don’t subscribe to the heinous Protestant doctrine that all non Christians go to hell no way around it either. I don’t really understand what you’re saying about not taking the Bible Theologically, it’s a theological book.
Gay rights though, how exactly do you feel about this? You think gay marriage is okay? Or do you just think that it’s wrong but not your decision? Something else?
I don’t think you disagree with the Church as much as you don’t know exactly what the Church teaches, and that’s better

 

[Michael_Allen]

Hi TheBreak

Speaking personally, I can’t believe something just because someone told me to believe it. I also don’t think that’s a healthy approach to life - many people could become trapped in false beliefs just because they were afraid to question authority. That would also seem a shallow belief to me - a faith that has never been strengthened by being challenged. I know my own faith in Jesus has ended up stronger by questioning it in younger years.

Truth, in my opinion, need not be forced. Truth will always stand up to robust questioning. In the past the Catholic Church has tried to force beliefs on people. But I think many people would say the Church has moved past that stage.

What I can see is that some people may come to a point where they trust Vatican authority. But if they have never seriously challenged why they trust the Vatican then I would say they still have an immature faith.

So, it seems, we need to strike a balance. Whatever faith we belong to we need to be open to challenging why we have that faith rather than another. That requires that we accept that we might be wrong in whatever position we hold. Yet, at the same time, we need to be really open to listening to those in authority. Indeed the word obedience comes from the Latin ob-audire which means ‘listen to’. The respect we can show authority is an openness to listening. But at the same time we need not rule out the possibility that any religious authority may be wrong. If we want to ask non-Catholics to challenge their own beliefs, then we had better have been through the same challenges ourselves.

God bless +

Michael

 

[tp3192000]

“Assent” is the best word used to describe the situation.

God gives us brains to use, and most people at some point in their life are not going to completely agree without doubt every doctrine or dogma. However, it is important to assent to such things to the best of our God-given abilities.

Thank you for a voice of reason and compassion. There are many who think they know all the answers, but perhaps they may not be so correct as they proclaim. Your few words say more than many.

 

[TRH1292]

Original Poster, You seemed to have a strange interpretation of what the Church teaches on some matters.
I suggest you get a copy of the catechism of the Catholic Church and read it.

Beyond that however,no, you are not free to disagree with revealed dogma’s of the faith. Stubborn refusal of a Catholic to believe in the revealed truths of Christ can place one’s salvation in grave danger.

 

[Brendan_64]

Well, About Same-sex marriage of course I don’t need to know because it is clear that the church is against it and that is fine for me but I also have the right to disagree.

Do you? Do you feel you have the right to pick and choose what Church teachings to follow, depending on your own personal opinion? I that case why do we need the Church?

About Non-Catholics not go to heaven, I remember reading a book by Catholic Bishop who said that according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, I can’t recall where exactly, but it said that The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus Christ established and therefor who are not Catholic will not be saved.

I suggest you read the Catechism on this, because this is not what our Church teaches.

About you answer, Do you mean that I should just obey the Catholic Church with everything?

Yes, absolutely.

What about the millions of Catholic who disagree with the Church ?

The views they hold on these issues are not in accordance with the teachings of the Church. Are Catholics free to hold that the teachings of the Church are wrong? In that case then what is the point of having authoritative Church teaching?

What about The Catholic Gays ?

They are welcome and valued members of our Church. Homosexual acts, however are gravely sinful, as is any form of sex outside marriage. Homosexuals are called to be chaste, just as unmarried heterosexuals are.

What about the Catholic nuns that I heard of in America of being liberal nuns ? All these are NOT Catholics ?

If they hold views that differ from the teachings of the Church, then the views they hold are not Catholic views.

The bottom line is that we are not free to pick and choose the Church teachings we wish to follow. As Catholics we are bound to accept ALL the teachings of our Church. To do otherwise means that we are each setting up ourselves as our own Church with our own authority to determine doctrine and dogma. To do this means we would be bypassing the Holy Spirit and setting ourselves up as a divine authority. We have no business doing this.

 

[ericc]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I’m Christian first, Catholic second, I’m proud and thankful that God made me Christian and lead me to become Catholic. But I have an issue that I would like to address.

I’m very opinionated person, what is in my mind I say it, when I see or hear something I disagree with I go into long conversation about it. I disagree with The Catholic church at many issues, maybe these issues and that not big deal but I would like to address them.

LGBT rights, Believing that Non-Catholics are not going to heaven, Taking The Bible theologically too much, for example, I don’t believe that the Book of Genesis is just theological book, I believe that Evolution happened but human beings are made exactly the way God said in the Bible and that Adam and Eve are first human beings. And other issues.

So, I used to support abortion but I’ve changed my mind about it. But I don’t think I will change my mind about these issues above.

So, Do I need to feel " guilty " because I disagree with the Church, I started feeling like I’m an outsider, something inside me telling me that I’m not going to be accepted by The Catholic Church because of my opinions and that started effecting my everyday prays and beliefs.

1. We are a product of our education/experience which leads us to certain opinions. The Vatican ie the Catholic Church has 2000 yrs of education/experience (and millions of manhours)to distill/conclude certain knowledge about our faith and she has been entrusted to teach us by Christ as she is the pillar and foundation of truth.
2. Of course everyone is free to rationalize things in any way he/she wants. That doesn’t make him correct. The Bible specifically says if there are any disagreements, bring it to the Church. And if one refuses to listen to the Church, there is an appropriate conclusion as well.

3)There is this thing called freewill. Christ asked you to listen to his disciples. “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” You can choose to listen or not.

1. John 6:60. On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” John 6:67 “Will you also go away?”. That was then. In the 21st century, nothing has changed. The Church is not in for a popularity contest. It is not a democracy. Christ did not do a show of hands to get approval to reject divorce for example. He said Eat my flesh, drink my blood. He didn’t say get out if you don’t agree. The hearers of his words decided to walk out on their own accord when they couldn’t stomach what he said. So, you have to ask yourself, do you pack your bags and go or do you stay put like Peter saying “Lord, to whom shall we go?”
2. The Church is a hospital for sinners. You get all kinds of opinions, ideas etc from 1 billion Catholics. Some are liberal, some are conservative, etc. All are sinners not withstanding their positions in the Church. The Pope goes to confession for example. Just because millions disagree with the Church should not affect your faith. You don’t have to judge them and it is not your job. There are many more that disagree but still obey. For those that disagree and disobey, confession is available when they repent. For me, my philosophy has been " I may not fully understand everything but I believe what the Church teaches to be correct and I should obey ". See reason below.

Perhaps the best way out of a personal conflict with the Vatican is to put yourself in the other person shoes, so to speak. Understand what the Vatican is actually saying and when you have understood the context of that , understand the reasons why. Then when you put the Vatican’s position against yours, you will have a better understanding of the whole matter. Remember Point 1 above, they have a 2000 yr headstart + millions of man hours vs you . And if you think you are still right and “they” are wrong after all the effort you have put in, read Matthew 16:18. the Church has a perpetual guarantee from Christ himself. Which other church has that guarantee?