Can I disagree with the Vatican ?

[zz912]

Well…yeah…but that’s a broad brush. I don’t disagree with Christ, but I’m not sure men always get it right.

Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect His Church from teaching error about faith and morals. Men can make mistakes, but not when God Himself prevents you from doing so.

 

[Brendan_64]

You could look at the Church as being a bit like a tree. You don’t agree with one part of Church teaching so you chop that bit off, you don’t agree with another so you chop that bit off, and so on. Before long there is no tree left as all the bits have been chopped off by people who find those particular bits objectionable.

As Catholics we do not each have our own individual religious belief system, with our own individual doctrines and dogmas, we have one Church with one set of universal teachings. Our Church isn’t simply a building we turn up to on Sundays.

 

[on_the_hill]

Christ promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect His Church from teaching error about faith and morals. Men can make mistakes, but not when God Himself prevents you from doing so.

How do we know when, though? I mean, we’re putting essentially everything we have in the trust that they’ll always follow the Spirit.

 

[Brendan_64]

How do we know when, though? I mean, we’re putting essentially everything we have in the trust that they’ll always follow the Spirit.

And how would you decide when the Vatican is not following the Holy Spirit? When it doesn’t ‘seem right’ to you?

“And I tell you, you are Peter,and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.”

The Pope is our rock, the one chosen by Jesus. Why would you not trust the teachings of the Vatican?

 

[clem456]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I’m Christian first, Catholic second, I’m proud and thankful that God made me Christian and lead me to become Catholic. But I have an issue that I would like to address.

I’m very opinionated person, what is in my mind I say it, when I see or hear something I disagree with I go into long conversation about it. I disagree with The Catholic church at many issues, maybe these issues and that not big deal but I would like to address them.

LGBT rights, Believing that Non-Catholics are not going to heaven, Taking The Bible theologically too much, for example, I don’t believe that the Book of Genesis is just theological book, I believe that Evolution happened but human beings are made exactly the way God said in the Bible and that Adam and Eve are first human beings. And other issues.

So, I used to support abortion but I’ve changed my mind about it. But I don’t think I will change my mind about these issues above.

So, Do I need to feel " guilty " because I disagree with the Church, I started feeling like I’m an outsider, something inside me telling me that I’m not going to be accepted by The Catholic Church because of my opinions and that started effecting my everyday prays and beliefs.

If your adult son said “Dad I’d like to drive intoxicated, sleep with various women, eat Hostess twinkies and drink beer all day every day”. Is he free to do that? Yes he is. Should he do that as I described? No, not if he appreciates the truth and wisdom of your life-long teaching, the guidance that you gave him **out of love **for him.
Now, there are times when he CAN drink, can sleep with A woman, and eat some twinkies. A person learns the proper times when this and that is appropriate and allowed.
This is where catechesis comes in. Learn what the Church really teaches, specifically. Start there as Ike said. When you learn the wisdom and love contained in Church teaching, you may find yourself wanting to give your assent and follow it

 

[Dorothy]

How do we know when, though? I mean, we’re putting essentially everything we have in the trust that they’ll always follow the Spirit.

Individual Catholics, priests, bishops and popes can be great sinners, and dissenters of Church authority and teaching. That has and does happen.

Please remember that we have a long list of martyrs and saints who became fully sanctified because they cooperated with the grace of God.

It is the Holy Spirit that we are trusting: He will not allow the teaching authority of the Church to officially teach error.

Individuals whether lay or clergy can be dissenters of the truth, and even speak out about it and gain notoriety, but the legitimate teaching authority of the Church on faith and morals cannot err!

No pope will ever be able to officially teach that there are only two Persons in the Blessed Trinity. No pope can ever officially teach that two people of the same sex can marry with the blessing of the Church.

Can you understand that?

 

[zz912]

How do we know when, though? I mean, we’re putting essentially everything we have in the trust that they’ll always follow the Spirit.

No, we don’t have to trust that the Pope, bishops, priests, religious, or lay people are always following the Spirit. The Holy Spirit has been promised by Christ that the gates of hell will NOT prevail over His Church. His Church will NOT teach error, ever. So even if we have a bad bishop, bad Pope, or bad priests, the teachings of the Church won’t change, and they won’t be in error.

One thing to note, even with several bad popes in history, what is one thing they never did? They NEVER taught error, and NEVER changed Church teaching. They may have committed many sins, but they NEVER taught that those sins were acceptable.

THAT is the protection of the Holy Spirit.

 

[KrazyKat]

No, we don’t have to trust that the Pope, bishops, priests, religious, or lay people are always following the Spirit. The Holy Spirit has been promised by Christ that the gates of hell will NOT prevail over His Church. His Church will NOT teach error, ever. So even if we have a bad bishop, bad Pope, or bad priests, the teachings of the Church won’t change, and they won’t be in error.

One thing to note, even with several bad popes in history, what is one thing they never did? They NEVER taught error, and NEVER changed Church teaching. They may have committed many sins, but they NEVER taught that those sins were acceptable.

THAT is the protection of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is within us and will let us know when men are being led astray in their thinking. It is the Holy Spirit that will lead us to salvation !!

 

[graciew]

English is not my native language, I’m sorry for any misspellings.

I’m Christian first, Catholic second, I’m proud and thankful that God made me Christian and lead me to become Catholic. But I have an issue that I would like to address.

I’m very opinionated person, what is in my mind I say it, when I see or hear something I disagree with I go into long conversation about it. I disagree with The Catholic church at many issues, maybe these issues and that not big deal but I would like to address them.

LGBT rights, Believing that Non-Catholics are not going to heaven, Taking The Bible theologically too much, for example, I don’t believe that the Book of Genesis is just theological book, I believe that Evolution happened but human beings are made exactly the way God said in the Bible and that Adam and Eve are first human beings. And other issues.

So, I used to support abortion but I’ve changed my mind about it. But I don’t think I will change my mind about these issues above.

So, Do I need to feel " guilty " because I disagree with the Church, I started feeling like I’m an outsider, something inside me telling me that I’m not going to be accepted by The Catholic Church because of my opinions and that started effecting my everyday prays and beliefs.

 

[steve_b]

Well, About Same-sex marriage of course I don’t need to know because it is clear that the church is against it and that is fine for me but I also have the right to disagree.

We have free will. Obviously, that doesn’t mean people will always use it correctly. We can’t confuse freedom with liscense. We don’t have the “right” or the “permission” to do whatever we want, or disagree with the Church on matters of faith and morals.

Re: same sex marriage. It’s a contradiction in terms. And the activity is condemned. People who live like that will not inherit heaven.

• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs ], 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

One disagrees with that warning at their own perile.
TB:

About Non-Catholics not go to heaven, I remember reading a book by Catholic Bishop who said that according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, I can’t recall where exactly, but it said that The Catholic Church is the only Church Jesus Christ established and therefor who are not Catholic will not be saved.

The Catechism says it like this [846 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 846)

People who are innocently ignorant of this, [847 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 847) (innocently ignorant is a possibility, not a given) as long as one remains innocently ignorant of this, paragraph #846 isn’t directed at them specifically. When it says they “may” achieve salvation, it only leaves open a possibility for salvation. For example, if I say it may rain tomorrow, may doesn’t mean will, and it doesn’t mean probably. It may only have a 5% chance of rain. However as #846 states, once a person knows the truth, and are no longer ignorant of the facts, THEN they must enter the Catholic Church. As an aside, one can’t pretend to be ignorant i.e. “feigned ignorance”. That’s no excuse. [1859 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1859)
TB:

Do you mean that I should just obey the Catholic Church with everything? What about the millions of Catholic who disagree with the Church ? What about The Catholic Gays ? What about the Catholic nuns that I heard of in America of being liberal nuns ? All these are NOT Catholics ?

Paul opened his letter to the Church of Rome, by complementing them on their “obedience of faith”. And he closes Romans with “obedience of faith”. Can we point to disobedient Catholics? Sure, they are all over the place. I personally choose not to stand in front of Jesus someday as one of them. Instead I hope to be complemented on MY obedience of faith.

 

[bcuster]

The Vatican? Do you mean dissent from the teachings of the Catholic Church? We cannot “create” God, or His Truth in our own image. We cannot state untruth as if it is true and then be miffed when the Church points it out. God is our creator. He says what is true and not true. He established the Church as a way to guide us in that truth. Do you want to cling to your opinions or live in the reality of God’s truth?

May the Peace of Christ be with you and lead you to all truth.

 

[KrazyKat]

The Pope will not lead us into sin. He will not change the Truth. I believe in the Holy Spirit , He will not permit the Truth to be changed.