Can I even go to this church?

[wildervine]

About six years ago, my husband & I moved from a large, very crime-ridden city to a smaller, safer community just below it, over the state-line. We are now about a half hour from where we used to live. I had been attending a wonderful Catholic church near our old place of residence and considered it my spiritual home.

There is another Catholic church nearby our new home, about 8 minutes away. I have gone to Mass there maybe 3 or 4 times over the past 6 years.

The problem is that I have never felt comfortable going there because of what I consider to be irregularities in their Mass, so I have for the past six years continued to go to my old parish. This in turn has been something of a problem in that now we are so far away and my husband is not comfortable with me driving up there due to the bad areas I have to drive through to get to my old church. Consequently, my attendence has been spotty.

Yesterday, I once again attended Mass at the new church nearby, but I left very agitated because the priest there makes changes to the liturgy that I have never heard or seen anywhere else. Also, I went to confession yesterday before Mass and noticed that this same priest did not even mention the Act of Contrition and did not ask me to say it at all. (I did say it, after I’d left the confessional). Other things that got me upset were changes/additions to the Eucharistic liturgy, including a change to the words where the priest is suppose to say in Jesus’s words: “Do this in memory of me” (the priest said something to the effect of: “He commanded us to do this in memory of me.”). Other things: the “Holy, holy, holy” was not said, but there was a series of prayers/responses inserted that I’d never heard before, and at the end, the entire church said the Doxology (Through Him, with Him, …) with the priest instead of the priest saying it alone as usual.

When I got home, my husband of course saw that I was upset, but when I told him the problems I’d encountered (again!) at this church, he assured me that it is not my responsibility to ensure the Mass is said properly and that because I went to this Mass in good faith, I had fulfilled my obligation. He also thinks it would be ok for me to continue to attend there, as again, it is up to the Bishops to oversee their diocese, not me. He also loves that this church is so much closer and safer for me to get to. Finally, my husband said that even with the changes, the Mass is still valid (I had been afraid that both my confession and the Mass itself was not valid, due to the changes). He says that since the priest is indeed a licit, legally ordained priest in the Roman Catholic Church, his Masses are still valid, despite the innovations he has introduced.

Any thoughts on this? The parishoners at the new church nearby think very highly of their priest and I don’t think there is a chance that anything will change there anytime soon. What exactly is my responsibility here? If you see innovations in a Mass, are you required to seek elsewhere?

 

[Crepusculum]

I feel your frustration - I too travel about an hour to my parish, though that’s more to do with the violence in my area (that and my affection for the Jesuit order).

I would suggest making a note of some of the things that you’ve noticed being a little odd about your local parish mass, and calling EWTN’s Open Line - probably best doing so Thursday or Friday. They will be able to give you Code of Canon Law references for why these things should not be done, which you can then take to your parish priest. If he is unreceptive to the criticism and wishes to continue the liturgical abuse regardless, then I guess your next step would be to the diocese (Open Line would also be a good place to ask about what to do after speaking to your priest).

Sorry I couldn’t be of more direct help,

 

[Maritsa]

Are you scrupulous? If you are, the advice is really different.

If you are scrupulous, then anything short of invalidating the Mass is not your job. If the Mass is invalidated your obligation IS still met as that isn’t your job, either. You just wouldn’t go back another week if you thought it likely to happen again.

You have no obligation to go to the closest parish. If another parish helps you to grow closer to God, then go there. If you are scrupulous, find a holy confessor who is trained in how to work with scrupulous people and always go to the same confessor, trusting the Lord to guide you through His priest.

If you aren’t scrupulous, then you can choose to not go back and to write a letter to the bishop briefly explaining why. Find a good and holy confessor and frequent his confessional instead.

 

[Spirithound]

Most importantly, it sounds like your confession was valid, the omission of the Act of Contrition does not invalidate the sacrament. Did the priest say the words of absolution?
As for the matters of the abuses of the Mass, I would recommend you talking to the priest, and then if no progress is made, writing to the Bishop.
As for which church to attend, yes, you can attend this closer church, but perhaps is there another one, closer than your old church, but further away than the new one?

 

[wildervine]

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

Maritsa, no, I’m not scrupulous and that really wasn’t the issue, but thank you for thinking about how that might impact my situation, if it had applied.

Spirithound, thanks for answering my worries about the validity of my confession & the Mass. I’ve never run into this before and since my old parish was so ‘traditional’ (N.O., but nothing out of the ordinary, at least and certainly no sweeping changes to the liturgy!) this really threw me for a loop. I can honestly say that all the priests at my old parish are truly wonderful and I felt lucky to have such a great source of spiritual guidance there.

Crepusculum, thanks for your reply, too- it’s awful, but I do find some ‘comfort’ in knowing I’m not the only one having to drive, drive, drive into areas I’m not crazy about. I believe I will continue to try to make it up to my old parish and go to the newer one only when time/circumstances keeps me from driving up. As long as I know that it is still a valid Mass I’m attending at the newer church, I won’t feel so bad going there now & again. That was what I was concerned about, as I say, never having run into this before. I was rather taken aback!

 

[wildervine]

Most importantly, it sounds like your confession was valid, the omission of the Act of Contrition does not invalidate the sacrament. Did the priest say the words of absolution?
As for the matters of the abuses of the Mass, I would recommend you talking to the priest, and then if no progress is made, writing to the Bishop.
As for which church to attend, yes, you can attend this closer church, but perhaps is there another one, closer than your old church, but further away than the new one?

P.S. Spirithound, yes, he did say the words of absolution. I am so used to my “old” priests asking me to say the Act of Contrition, I had never thought about it not being an integral part of the confession, hence my confusion.

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

Maritsa, no, I’m not scrupulous and that really wasn’t the issue, but thank you for thinking about how that might impact my situation, if it had applied.

Spirithound, thanks for answering my worries about the validity of my confession & the Mass. I’ve never run into this before and since my old parish was so ‘traditional’ (N.O., but nothing out of the ordinary, at least and certainly no sweeping changes to the liturgy!) this really threw me for a loop. I can honestly say that all the priests at my old parish are truly wonderful and I felt lucky to have such a great source of spiritual guidance there.

Crepusculum, thanks for your reply, too- it’s awful, but I do find some ‘comfort’ in knowing I’m not the only one having to drive, drive, drive into areas I’m not crazy about. I believe I will continue to try to make it up to my old parish and go to the newer one only when time/circumstances keeps me from driving up. As long as I know that it is still a valid Mass I’m attending at the newer church, I won’t feel so bad going there now & again. That was what I was concerned about, as I say, never having run into this before. I was rather taken aback!

Much of what you have mentioned regarding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is abusive. Regarding the Eucharistic Prayer, Redemptionis Sacramentum (the Church’s document against liturgical abuse) notes:

1. The Eucharistic Prayer
   [51.] **Only those Eucharistic Prayers are to be used which are found in the Roman Missal or are legitimately approved by the Apostolic See, and according to the manner and the terms set forth by it. "It is not to be tolerated that some Priests take upon themselves the right to compose their own Eucharistic Prayers"129 or to change the same texts approved by the Church, or to introduce others composed by private individuals.130

[52.] The proclamation of the Eucharistic Prayer, which by its very nature is the climax of the whole celebration, is proper to the Priest by virtue of his Ordination. It is therefore an abuse to proffer it in such a way that some parts of the Eucharistic Prayer are recited by a Deacon, a lay minister, or by an individual member of the faithful, or by all members of the faithful together. The Eucharistic Prayer, then, is to be recited by the Priest alone in full.131**

As far as the faithful reciting the Doxology, RS has this to say:

[54.] The people, however, are always involved actively and never merely passively: for they “silently join themselves with the Priest in faith, as well as in their interventions during the course of the Eucharistic Prayer as prescribed, namely in the responses in the Preface dialogue, the Sanctus, the acclamation after the consecration and the “Amen” after the final doxology, and in other acclamations approved by the Conference of Bishops with the recognitio of the Holy See”.133

Thus, the only thing the people are allowed to say is “Amen”, since the Eucharistic Prayer belongs solely to the priest to recite.

Now, as far as yuor husband’s response, RS also has this to say:

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
   [183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

It is your right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated in the manner, matter and form prescribed by the Church. What I would suggest is to write to the pastor and list your concerns, along with the appropriatae sections of Redemptionis Sacramentum. If he doesn’t respond at all, or remains obstinate, then, I would suggest that you write to the Bishop.

You can find Redemptionis Sacramentum in full at adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html#anchor1186479

This is not being scrupulous at all. Wht you are describing is serious.

 

[adrift]

It is your right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated in the manner, matter and form prescribed by the Church. What I would suggest is to write to the pastor and list your concerns, along with the appropriatae sections of Redemptionis Sacramentum. If he doesn’t respond at all, or remains obstinate, then, I would suggest that you write to the Bishop.

Good advice. I found abuses in a Church. I did write the priest who never answered me. I then wrote the bishop who made changes.

 

[benedictgal]

Good advice. I found abuses in a Church. I did write the priest who never answered me. I then wrote the bishop who made changes.

This comes from a thread on Lord of the Dance. This comment was posted by driver9:

1. Lord of the Dance was composed in 1963 by the radical English poet, composer and folk singer, Sydney Carter.

1. The tune is adaption of the American Shaker hymn, “Simple Gifts”

1. The composer himself described his own religious views in the following words:
   “I see Christ as the incarnation of the piper who is calling us. He dances that shape and pattern which is at the heart of our reality. By Christ I mean not only Jesus; in other times and places, other planets, there may be other Lords of the Dance. But Jesus is the one I know of first and best. I sing of the dancing pattern in the life and words of Jesus.”
2. Carter said that inspiration for the song came, in part, from a statue of the dancing Shiva (a hindu god) that he kept on his desk and that he was astonished by its success:
   "I did not think the churches would like it at all. I thought many people would find it pretty far flown, probably heretical and anyway dubiously Christian…Anyway, it’s the sort of Christianity I believe in"

1. The lyrics may perhaps be connected to the second century heretical Apocryphal Acts of John in which before his Passion, Christ stands in the midst of his disciples and bids them join hands and dance with him, whilst he sings a hymn to the Father.

In my response to one of the comments, I posted some of what this heretical, gnostic gospel had to say:

Grace danceth. I would pipe; dance ye all. Amen.

I would mourn: lament ye all. Amen.

The number Eight (lit. one ogdoad) singeth praise with us. Amen.

The number Twelve danceth on high. Amen.

The Whole on high hath part in our dancing. Amen.

Whoso danceth not, knoweth not what cometh to pass. Amen.

A door am I to thee that knockest at me. Amen.

A way am I to thee a wayfarer. [amen].

96 Now answer thou (or as thou respondest) unto my dancing. Behold thyself in me who speak, and seeing what I do, keep silence about my mysteries.

Thou that dancest, perceive what I do, for thine is this passion of the manhood, which I am about to suffer. For thou couldest not at all have understood what thou sufferest if I had not been sent unto thee, as the word of the Father. Thou that sawest what I suffer sawest me as suffering, and seeing it thou didst not abide but wert wholly moved, moved to make wise. Thou hast me as a bed, rest upon me. Who I am, thou shalt know when I depart. What now I am seen to be, that I am not. Thou shalt see when thou comest. If thou hadst known how to suffer, thou wouldest have been able not to suffer. Learn thou to suffer, and thou shalt be able not to suffer. What thou knowest not, I myself will teach thee. Thy God am I, not the God of the traitor. I would keep tune with holy souls. In me know thou the word of wisdom. Again with me say thou: Glory be to thee, Father; glory to thee, Word; glory to thee, Holy Ghost. And if thou wouldst know concerning me, what I was, know that with a word did I deceive all things and I was no whit deceived. I have leaped: but do thou understand the whole, and having understood it, say: Glory be to thee, Father. Amen.

97 Thus, my beloved, having danced with us the Lord went forth.

This is not the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. The accounts of the Passion according to Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the only ones the Church holds to be true. Certainly they didn’t refer to Jesus as traipsing through the Passion.

 

[anamchara]

P.S. Spirithound, yes, he did say the words of absolution. I am so used to my “old” priests asking me to say the Act of Contrition, I had never thought about it not being an integral part of the confession, hence my confusion.

Wildervine, Not all priests will ask you to say the Act of Contrition. But you did receive the words of absolution so that’s good.

The stuff you mentioned about the Mass is odd. I’m sorry you are feeling so uncomfortable there and I can’t blame you. If it were me and I was stuck going there. I’d call and make an appointment with the priest and just have a heart to heart. I’d just mention that you are really struggling with certain parts of the Mass and have noticed a few things that are weighing on you. Maybe go over the GIRM a bit before hand so you have some knowledge. If there are abuses and he is just arrogant about it then you would probably have to up the chain of command. But who knows maybe after talking to him things will work out for the better. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has lead you there for a reason. Maybe this priest needs you.

 

[down_under]

Are you scrupulous? If you are, the advice is really different.

If you are scrupulous, then anything short of invalidating the Mass is not your job. If the Mass is invalidated your obligation IS still met as that isn’t your job, either. You just wouldn’t go back another week if you thought it likely to happen again.

You have no obligation to go to the closest parish. If another parish helps you to grow closer to God, then go there. If you are scrupulous, find a holy confessor who is trained in how to work with scrupulous people and always go to the same confessor, trusting the Lord to guide you through His priest.

If you aren’t scrupulous, then you can choose to not go back and to write a letter to the bishop briefly explaining why. Find a good and holy confessor and frequent his confessional instead.

If you are going to leave this parish it is always advisable to write a letter to the priest. calmly and as fairly as you can explain to him what the problems are with the church and the reasons you will not be attending. it is better to write the letter assuming the good faith of the priest. If the priest is not doing these things in good faith he gets the same message the difference is you don’t know if he is or not.

recently I heard the doxology being said by the whole congregation so I wait for my oportunity to make a difference. It came the other day so I bring it up to the priest. hey pastor I notice in some parishes the through him with him bit is only said by the priest but here everyone joins in. How is that suspose to work. And he says “The priest is suspose to say it by himself. Don’t worry I am going to use this opportunity to fix the problem.” The whole time he knew he had a problem and was working for a solution (months), but had to wait for his teachable moment. (old nuns looking for change is my guess, but I could be wrong. It is really just a guess). So ask him in some neutral way, and see what he says. He might not be the problem. He might even be on your side and looking for help.

 

[hasikelee]

Argh I feel your frustration. Our parish is in the city and with no traffic we can get there in an hour. With gas prices and our schedules, it’s rare to enjoy Mass at our parish.

Meanwhile, back where we live there must be ten churches within a 2 mile radius, but they are all baloney. I feel as if I am attending a circus when I go to any of them. In fact, one time one of them was a circus, complete with dancers, a puppet at the pulpit, jokes during the consecration and carnival-ish music.

We can’t move any closer to our parish because 1) it’s in the city with a lot of crime and 2) it’s super expensive.

 

[John_Lilburne]

… What exactly is my responsibility here? If you see innovations in a Mass, are you required to seek elsewhere?

No, you are not required to seek elsewhere.

From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
“**6. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters **
[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.
[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.”

Perhaps some issues to consider in deciding.
How likely are you able to correct the local abuses?
How are you more likely to fulfil the Sunday obligation?
How much better for your faith is the further Church?
What is the cost of travelling further?
Where can you do the most good?
What would you prefer to have done in ten years?
Are you prepared to complain to the bishop?
Can you develop a relationship with the bishop?
Can the time spent travelling be better spent learning and correcting?
Are there others in the local church with similar concerns, who you could support in improving the liturgy?

 

[wildervine]

Everyone, thank you, thank you for the excellent posts and suggestions. All the information you’ve provided has helped a great deal, especially knowing what I’ve got a right to expect from the way the Mass is said.

If I attend this church again, I will be better prepared for any innovations that are there, will take more careful note of them, and then I plan on approaching the priest there and asking in the most non-confrontational way I know how to explain to me why these changes are happening. He seems like a very loving priest, and as I say, his parishioners seem to love him (the couple I spoke to the other day, at least), so if anything, I’m thinking (hoping?) it’s just his enthusiasm for “people participation” that has carried him too far in how he says the Mass and what he has allowed to creep in. Maybe a respectful question or two will awaken in him a realization that too many changes to the Mass have snuck in.

Then again, maybe he is aware of the problems and is waiting for the correct time to fix them. Maybe I’m not the only one feeling uncomfortable with what is going on there and will run into others who are also uncomfortable. I need to go there a few more times to really get a complete picture on what is going on. Next time, I won’t be surprised and rattled and will be able to approach this issue more calmly. All of you have helped me feel more confident on how to handle what is for me, a very new situation.

Thanks again!

 

[muffinmojo]

If you are going to leave this parish it is always advisable to write a letter to the priest. calmly and as fairly as you can explain to him what the problems are with the church and the reasons you will not be attending. it is better to write the letter assuming the good faith of the priest. If the priest is not doing these things in good faith he gets the same message the difference is you don’t know if he is or not.

recently I heard the doxology being said by the whole congregation so I wait for my oportunity to make a difference. It came the other day so I bring it up to the priest. hey pastor I notice in some parishes the through him with him bit is only said by the priest but here everyone joins in. How is that suspose to work. And he says “The priest is suspose to say it by himself. Don’t worry I am going to use this opportunity to fix the problem.” The whole time he knew he had a problem and was working for a solution (months), but had to wait for his teachable moment. (old nuns looking for change is my guess, but I could be wrong. It is really just a guess). So ask him in some neutral way, and see what he says. He might not be the problem. He might even be on your side and looking for help.

My parish priest has, on occasion, stopped and told people to stop doing something/to do something. He can be sort of intimidating, but it’s great that he is trying to respect the liturgy.

That sounds like a great idea, thank you for sharing that. It’s so easy to assume that the priest of an abusive parish is willfully harming the liturgy, that I often never think of the possibility that perhaps the poor priest is just a somewhat shy or reserved guy, and can’t think of how to deal with it. I know I’d be scared to chew out a parish if I were a priest…

Anyway, to the OP, perhaps if you know someone who is knowledgable about liturgical practice and law, but respectful, you could go together to the priest? Having someone who shares your concerns can make it easier, and give more credence to your issues.