Can I give my blessing to this marriage?

[JadensMom]

Thank you Harpazo for being one of the only ones who hasn’t made mean assertions against me here.

It’s not that I would dislike ANY woman who got engaged to my brother or that I don’t think any woman would be good enough for him – that’s absurd. It’s simply that I always thought he’d marry a good Catholic girl with a normal attitude towards children, which I don’t think is too much to ask. I suppose OutinChgoburbs you would be delighted to hear that your only brother wanted to marry a sterile atheist who doesn’t like children, but to me it feels as though he’s flying in our whole family’s faces and throwing our Catholic values in the trash.

And I’m not judging as to whether she isn’t Catholic or not by implication – she isn’t, and she’s said that she isn’t. (When we asked her, she said that if she really HAD to say what religion she was, she’d go with agnostic.) And she’s met my son much more than once, and met other nieces and nephews in our family, and never been especially warm to any of them. Just this last Christmas we invited both of them over to my parents’ house to watch all the children unwrap Christmas presents, and told them both get there at about six a.m. because that’s when the kids wake up and start wanting to open presents.

Well, guess what? My brother showed up at six a.m., ALONE. He said that his fiancée would be joining us for Christmas lunch and dinner and evening party after Mass, which she did. So all right, she couldn’t make the effort to get up early one day out of the year to join in the family Christmas and she couldn’t go to Mass, but she could show up and eat my mother’s cooking and go to our party. She’s also been invited to birthday parties for the nieces and nephews, including my son, but she can never make it. My brother will show up and bring a gift with a card from both of them, but she hasn’t gone to a single child’s party this YEAR. I think she’s been to about two and then she always has to work or has other commitments.

Plus it’s tradition in our family for my mother to start making the first baby’s baptism gown after the engagement is announced and give the gown as a wedding gift. (She’s done this for five daughters now.) I KNOW she thinks she’s going to see grandchildren from them because the last time I was at her house, she was sewing that little gown for them. All happy and beaming, sewing that little dress by hand.

And if I’m “narrow-minded” on the topic of sterilization, well then so is the Catholic Church. “2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).”

And so was His Holiness John Paul II. He wrote that sterilization was absolutely forbidden, period! “It (direct sterilization) is absolutely forbidden … according to the teaching of the Church, even when it is motivated by a subjectively right intention of curing or preventing a physical or psychological ill-effect which is foreseen or feared as a result of pregnancy.”

There you have it straight from the horse’s mouth. I got that off the Vatican’s website. Are you going to tell me the Vatican is wrong? I don’t see any loophole in there for men who marry diabetics, do you?

Fact is: She’s rejected the Church and doesn’t like children, and has no intention of having any children, and not only that, she’s wilfully gone out and destroyed any chance she had of having children. He knows this and he’s willfully entering into an invalid marriage and he hasn’t bothered to tell our mother the truth.

So yes, this is bothering me.

 

[SeekerJen]

Fact is: She’s rejected the Church and doesn’t like children, and has no intention of having any children, and not only that, she’s wilfully gone out and destroyed any chance she had of having children. He knows this and he’s willfully entering into an invalid marriage and he hasn’t bothered to tell our mother the truth.

So yes, this is bothering me.

I love how some women who can easily have children will assume that a woman who cannot have kids and doesn’t appear to warm up easily to children must hate kids. A lot of us are trying to keep ourselves sane, because the knowledge that we can’t have kids will drive us crazy if we let it. This may be double for her as she chose sterilization. Perhaps she regrets what she has done and needs time away from children to grieve, especially as she has met the man she wants to marry. Most women think about having kids at that point; knowing that by her own choice she cannot have kids might be like a knife in the gut. I know that I couldn’t be around children for a long time after my miscarriage, and I am still not terribly warm around kids. I imagine that it might be much worse if I had deliberately ensured that I could not have them and regretted my choice.

And also, sometimes those of us who are infertile say that we don’t want kids, can’t imagine dealing with them, etc. Often it’s easier to get people to leave the issue alone that way than to admit that we’re infertile. Many of us don’t want to discuss such matters with everyone, and often the advice we receive when we do implies that either we are defective, are doing something wrong, or should resort to immoral means for babies. Also, sometimes it’s a defense mechanism. If we tell ourselves enough times that we don’t really want kids, maybe we’ll start believing it and the pain of infertility won’t be so bad.

And no, she has not destroyed any chance of having children, unless you’re one of those people who thinks that adopted children don’t count (I’m not saying you are, but since you seem to assume that if she can’t bear children she can’t ever parent a child, I wonder). A child doesn’t have to be a couple’s flesh and blood to be their child. A few years down the road they may become amazing parents to a child given up by a mother who can’t keep him or her.

You don’t know what has been told to the priest. You don’t know what will happen in the future, if she will change her mind on children, etc. You don’t know what has been said between her and your brother. I still can’t figure out why they told you any of this. I wonder if they regret it. I would, if I were them after reading your posts. I feel kind of sorry for this girl; it doesn’t sound like she will be welcomed once it is discovered that she can’t bear children.

(I’m still shaking my head at the idea of giving a baptismal gown for a wedding gift. I know if I had received one I would have to keep it locked away right now. I’m sure my aunts who had to adopt their children would feel the same way. It’s a nice hope, but not every couple is able to have children. What a lot of pressure.)

 

[maria29]

I have to say too that what’s done is done for the bride as far the sterlization goes. Maybe she regrets it and now has problems being around children. My boss’s wife who struggles with infertility hates going to baby showers, being around children etc because it reminds her that she doesn’t have one yet.

Just because your brother and sister in law don’t have their own child biologically, it doesn’t mean they can’t adopt.

BTW if they’re getting married in the Catholic Church don’t you think the priest would of refused to marry them if there were issues with it?

You proably think your adapt at hiding your feelings about this girl but I bet she feels it anyways as well as the ones from your mom. Perhaps your family makes her nervous, scared etc because she feels like you dislike her.

 

[Listener]

The problem here is that the poster is making herself miserable over a problem that she has no control over. I never said that the Church makes an exception to the rule against sterilization. The reality is that, for better or for worse, this bride-to-be had this done. People do things all of the time that we don’t approve of, but why go around making ourselves miserable over it? If the young man had joined the seminary, he wouldn’t be having any children either.

 

[Newzie52]

Plus it’s tradition in our family for my mother to start making the first baby’s baptism gown after the engagement is announced and give the gown as a wedding gift. (She’s done this for five daughters now.) I KNOW she thinks she’s going to see grandchildren from them because the last time I was at her house, she was sewing that little gown for them. All happy and beaming, sewing that little dress by hand.

While certainly well-meaning, I imagine that gift could be a knife in the heart of someone who cannot, for whatever reason, bear children.

I agree with another poster who pointed out that it is entirely possible that it’s not that she doesn’t like children (although that could be) but that it is painful to be around them. I had three miscarriages before my two daughters and it was almost physically painful to see others’ babies.

While you are intent on believing the marriage would be invalid, that is simply not the case. You seem to be interpreting Church teachings to suit your viewpoint. (Sterility is not the same as impotency or inability to consummate the marriage, which would, indeed, be an impediment.)

As I mentioned previously, your brother may turn out to be this woman’s way back to the Church. I think it is time to gracefully and prayerfully let this go and back off.

 

[THutch04]

As far as how she is around your 5 year old, maybe she just doesn’t relate well to children. I know I personally don’t know what to do around kids and would probably come off as being unfriendly; that’s not too uncommon, and even parents with many children say they don’t care for other people’s. I do know that there is a lot of pressure from medical professionals to undergo sterilization to prevent pregancies if you have health problems that could be made worse. Unfortunately she wouldn’t be the first person talked into it.

I don’t know what you can really DO about the situation, other than maybe talk to the priest who intends to marry them and tell him your concerns (I’m assuming he’s agreed to marry them). Or maybe you could tell your concerns to your brother if the two of you are close enough that you think it will have any impact. If they’re adults though, and the priest has agreed to marry them, I don’t know what good it would do.

 

[KCtheMommy]

Gosh let’s face it people – she has her mind set. We all wished her peace – and rather than ACCEPT peace, actual DOCTRINE, or even to merely accept: ACCEPTANCE – she keeps going on as though she could change our minds. As if OUR opinions – or even – her’s counts. The fellow in question is getting married. The poor bride has no idea what she’s getting into if she has this kind of enemy and doesn’t even realize it as she marries in! Poor lady!

I can’t believe the baptismal gown reference - just the attempt at sympathy. My goodness lady, your fellow catholics are simply saying to butt out – your attempts here to try and change the thinking of random strangers has me really worried about your family. QUIT trying to control everything! Lest you drive YOURSELF insane and cause rifts you cannot mend. Think of the Serenity Prayer:

Lord,
Help me to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I CAN
And the WISDOM
to know the difference…

Get over it, let it go – be happy for your OWN sake.

 

[Newzie52]

Gosh let’s face it people – she has her mind set. We all wished her peace – and rather than ACCEPT peace, actual DOCTRINE, or even to merely accept: ACCEPTANCE – she keeps going on as though she could change our minds. As if OUR opinions – or even – her’s counts. The fellow in question is getting married. The poor bride has no idea what she’s getting into if she has this kind of enemy and doesn’t even realize it as she marries in! Poor lady!

I can’t believe the baptismal gown reference - just the attempt at sympathy. My goodness lady, your fellow catholics are simply saying to butt out – your attempts here to try and change the thinking of random strangers has me really worried about your family. QUIT trying to control everything! Lest you drive YOURSELF insane and cause rifts you cannot mend. Think of the Serenity Prayer:

Lord,
Help me to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I CAN
And the WISDOM
to know the difference…

Get over it, let it go – be happy for your OWN sake.

Amen and amen

 

[He_Man]

I feel kind of sorry for the bride. Is anyone going to warn her about what kind of a narrow-minded and judgmental family that she is marrying into?

It sounds to me like she has a bad case of childhood Type 1 Diabetes. If this is the case, my understanding is that it is indeed very dangerous to have children in this condition. In any case, whatever she my have done may well be against Church teaching. It is really no one’s buisness.

I think that is unfair. Assuming the OPs motives are pure, I’d take someone’s concern for my soul over someone’s concern for my life any day.

What is my life compared to my soul? You can have the former; not the latter.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Gosh let’s face it people – she has her mind set. We all wished her peace – and rather than ACCEPT peace, actual DOCTRINE, or even to merely accept: ACCEPTANCE – she keeps going on as though she could change our minds. As if OUR opinions – or even – her’s counts. The fellow in question is getting married. The poor bride has no idea what she’s getting into if she has this kind of enemy and doesn’t even realize it as she marries in! Poor lady!

I can’t believe the baptismal gown reference - just the attempt at sympathy. My goodness lady, your fellow catholics are simply saying to butt out – your attempts here to try and change the thinking of random strangers has me really worried about your family. QUIT trying to control everything! Lest you drive YOURSELF insane and cause rifts you cannot mend. Think of the Serenity Prayer:

Lord,
Help me to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I CAN
And the WISDOM
to know the difference…

Get over it, let it go – be happy for your OWN sake.

Brava (standing for an ovation of well-deserved applause!) :clapping:

Why are you even asking us if you’ve made up your mind, Jaden(name removed by moderator)? You don’t know the CCC well enough to know about the principle of double-effect in such a situation. You are not a priest, not a theologian, not even well-catechized. You won’t listen to advice for which you’ve asked. So go do what you’re going to do, ruin what trust your brother has in you, get your family all riled up, make everybody unhappy.

Don’t be surprised if your brother decides in favor of his fiancee, has the wedding anyway- without your family- and moves far away. I know I would.

 

[rinnie]

The Only Advice I Can Give Is The The Advice My Mother Always Says. Dont Confess My Sins For Me. I Can Do That Myself. You Worry About Your Sins Let Them Worry About Thiers.

 

[He_Man]

That sounds nice, but if I though my mother was on a path to hell, I’d do my best to stop her.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Hi!
I know you mentioned sterility as an impediment to a valid marriage and I wanted to quote canon law to show you sterility in itself is not an impediment (sorry if someone else quoted this already, I haven’t read everyone’s replies):

Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature.

§2. If the impediment of impotence is doubtful, whether by a doubt about the law or a doubt about a fact, a marriage must not be impeded nor, while the doubt remains, declared null.

§3. Sterility neither prohibits nor nullifies marriage, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1098.

Can. 1098 A person contracts invalidly who enters into a marriage deceived by malice, perpetrated to obtain consent, concerning some quality of the other partner which by its very nature can gravely disturb the partnership of conjugal life.

Your brother is aware of her sterility, so can 1098 doesn’t apply. I am not sure how the fact that she is staunch about not having children (if she is) takes a role though, and I do believe their priest should know about this.

I too have a brother and would be sad to know he was marrying a woman that rejects the Catholic Church and would rather be considered agnostic. I would also be sad knowing she rejects the aspect of openness to life in marriage. Its hard to explain, but a sterile woman can validly contract marriage, but cannot reject the aspect of being open to life in marriage, even if it is seemingly impossible for her to bear children.

One aspect of marriage is spouses helping each other reach Heaven. Are they living together? You mentioned going to their house for dinner and them coming to stay over for Christmas. Living together can blind a couple’s judgement about marriage, just thought I would mention it. If you think your brother is infatuated and not necessarily in love or not thinking this over clearly, I would talk with him. Now, bear in mind that he may not care to hear what you have to say, and that he may go on with the marriage and that you do not want to burn any bridges. Once they are married you need to love and support them in any way you can, welcoming her with open arms, but before they are married you can talk with him and let him know your concerns, always keeping in mind that if he does marry her whatever you have said will stay with him. Just be very careful about what you say, you don’t want to make enemies out of them or her. If they do marry your love and example can lead them back to the Church. She sounds like she cares about your brother and may be a nice person, just misguided in her Faith.

Who knows, if they marry maybe she will revert. I did read a few very good posts that explained how she may act and say the things she does about children because of the pain of not being able to have any. You must try to speak in a positive way to your brother if or when you talk with your brother about it. You can go along the lines of telling him what you are seeing from the outside, that your perception may be right or wrong, but is based on what you have seen and been told by them. Maybe you can let him know you will love whoever he marries, you respect his judgement, that they will be a “new sister” to you, but that out of love for him you felt like you needed to share these thoughts. Pray about it, even seek guidance from a good priest on what you can tell your brother. Speak to him out of love. I probably haven’t been much help, but I wanted to let you know I can only imagine how heavy this may be on your heart.

About the baptism gown and your mother being sad about him not having children, remember that this could have happened even if he married a practicing Catholic who happened to be infertile for reasons out of her control, so it is something to keep in mind.

 

[JadensMom]

Why are you even asking us if you’ve made up your mind, Jaden(name removed by moderator)?

Because I haven’t made up my mind on ANYTHING. You’re making assumptions here that I’m going to go blab their secret to everyone and ruin their potential marriage, which I haven’t done and have no intention of doing. You’re assuming I’m pretty horrible here, aren’t you?

You don’t know the CCC well enough to know about the principle of double-effect in such a situation.

Why don’t you explain it to me, then?

You are not a priest, not a theologian, not even well-catechized.

You’re not a priest, or theologian either, I assume? And if you claim to be so well-catechized yourself, can you provide a few citations about how marrying a woman who has no intention of having kids can make a valid Catholic marriage? It’d be a big load off my mind if you could.

All the official Vatican documents I’ve read and cited here say that a Catholic marriage contracted without any intention of having children ISN’T VALID. Can you cite something to the contrary that will put my mind at ease? If so, where is it?

So go do what you’re going to do, ruin what trust your brother has in you, get your family all riled up, make everybody unhappy.

I haven’t said I was going to do any of this!

Don’t be surprised if your brother decides in favor of his fiancee, has the wedding anyway- without your family- and moves far away. I know I would.

How dare you! I would NEVER do what you’re accusing me of! Apparently you’ve got it in your head that I’m going to go “tell on my brother” and cause a big rift in the family, and I NEVER said such a thing!

The last thing I ever expected on a Catholic board was to get personally attacked! Well, I’m going to be praying for someone to be able to learn how to control her temper and not make damning assumptions about others tonight, and that’s for certain.

And furthermore, I DO know that they don’t plan to tell the priest that the bride had herself snipped. My brother said flat out that they think it’s “their business” and theirs alone. This decision of theirs affects far more people that just them!

I don’t think it’s really fair to compare a young woman who intentionally went out and had herself sterilized to infertile women, who can’t have children through no fault of their own. You can’t compare the two! An infertile woman has a condition she didn’t ask for, and that causes her all kinds of anguish – a woman who has undergone sterilization did it on purpose and is probably glad that she can’t have kids, or at least doesn’t care about having them. She had presumably healthy body parts and had them intentionally mutilated. There is no comparing intentional sterility to infertility – the intent is totally different.

Also, they don’t plan to adopt. I brought this up to him in a phone call awhile back and he said that adoption agencies don’t like to give children to people with chronic health conditions. Also they don’t like the idea of foster children either, because sometimes they have emotional problems and she doesn’t feel physically up to the job of dealing with a troubled teenager. Fact is, this woman just doesn’t like children and doesn’t want them.

So I’m wrong to feel distressed about this woman becoming my sister-in-law, my brother’s wife? How about my mother and father? They’re already worried because he’s marrying out of the faith – how do think they’d take this? Do you think us moms sit there feeling that child kick inside us, thinking, “Oh I hope my dear child grows up, falls in love, and marries a woman who doesn’t like or want children?”

I don’t see why, on a Catholic board, I have to defend the whole institution of the good Catholic family that loves and welcomes children, but apparently that makes me a monster to some here, who don’t know me at all, but who are ready to assume I’d intentionally try to ruin my brother’s engagement.

ETA: No, they aren’t living together. When I said “their house” I meant my brother’s house. She has her own apartment.

 

[jrabs]

All the official Vatican documents I’ve read and cited here say that a Catholic marriage contracted without any intention of having children ISN’T VALID. Can you cite something to the contrary that will put my mind at ease? If so, where is it?

Pretty well covered in several posts. It would be a valid marriage. You are failing to read the CCC 1084 as already presented in several posts.

 

[JadensMom]

Pretty well covered in several posts. It would be a valid marriage. You are failing to read the CCC 1084 as already presented in several posts.

You’re failing to see that sterility isn’t an impediment if there is still openness to life.

The sterile person can be validly married if she’s willing to be open to life. I don’t see any openness to life in either one of them.

She avoids children’s celebrations, they don’t want to adopt or foster children. Where’s the openness to life there?

 

[SeekerJen]

I don’t think it’s really fair to compare a young woman who intentionally went out and had herself sterilized to infertile women, who can’t have children through no fault of their own. You can’t compare the two! An infertile woman has a condition she didn’t ask for, and that causes her all kinds of anguish – a woman who has undergone sterilization did it on purpose and is probably glad that she can’t have kids, or at least doesn’t care about having them. She had presumably healthy body parts and had them intentionally mutilated. There is no comparing intentional sterility to infertility – the intent is totally different.

Also, they don’t plan to adopt. I brought this up to him in a phone call awhile back and he said that adoption agencies don’t like to give children to people with chronic health conditions. Also they don’t like the idea of foster children either, because sometimes they have emotional problems and she doesn’t feel physically up to the job of dealing with a troubled teenager. Fact is, this woman just doesn’t like children and doesn’t want them.

You don’t know what kind of pressure she might have been under to have herself sterilized. How old is she? How old was she when she had the surgery? She might have been quite young and let herself be talked into the surgery. As for declaring herself an agnostic: that’s not the same as an atheist. I’m sorry that she was forced into her confirmation. Many of my friends were as well; most of them are no longer Catholic. I was not forced into Confirmation, chose to be confirmed as an adult, and am still Catholic. However, there is still hope for her. I wish you could see that.

You’re assuming quite a lot about her: that she was happy to have her uterus removed (which means that she doesn’t function normally as a woman), that she’s happy that she will never be able to bear a child with your brother and will have to deal with her in-laws disapproval of that fact (as evidenced by your attitude), that she’s happy that their chances of adopting are all but gone because agencies have a glut of healthy couples on waiting lists to adopt children, that every woman’s idea of joy is attending every small child’s party, even knowing that she can never have a small child. Or that every woman should automatically like every child. I’ve heard many moms say that they’re not big fans of kids in general. They love their own kids, but they’re not enthused to be around other people’s kids all the time. And you’re assuming that she is sharing her true feelings on the matter with you. She may be assuming a flippant attitude to cover up a lot of pain. Given your response, I can understand why she might be inclined to do so.

I can also completely understand their reluctance to foster. Either a baby is placed in your home and is usually removed once you become attached, or you get older children with the baggage that comes from being shunted from home to home after being removed from an abusive home in the first place. Does that mean fostering shouldn’t happen? No- it is a good thing for people who are able to handle the stress. She’s dealing with a major health issue. If she forgets her insulin- potential coma. She takes too much insulin- blackout. She may end up with nerve damage some day. She doesn’t know. You don’t know.

Again, I feel sorry for her. It’s obvious that you won’t welcome her into the family. If I were her I would take a good long look at things, maybe postpone the wedding to think if I was really up to the constant disapproval of my husband’s family. It is obvious that your brother loves this woman. He knows all about her condition and the complications and wants to have her as his spouse and family. I hope that you can respect this and realize that a man leaves his own family and cleaves to his wife.

 

[jrabs]

You’re failing to see that sterility isn’t an impediment if there is still openness to life.

The sterile person can be validly married if she’s willing to be open to life. I don’t see any openness to life in either one of them.

She avoids children’s celebrations, they don’t want to adopt or foster children. Where’s the openness to life there?

But you are failing to hear their private conversations and failing to hear her true thoughts. You really just do not know.

In due time things will work out.

In my younger years, I did not like kids either. I EVENTUALLY changed my heart - or God softened my heart.

I have kids, but I’ve gotta be honest - I try and avoid children functions too. I am getting re-married and there will be no kids at my wedding - other than mine. My honeymoon is primarily a place for adults only.When I dine out, I prefer not being seated next to young kids. Not that I do not love children, but I have my own reasons.

Let this not worry you. Give it up to God. You sound like a wonderful and loving sister. Perhaps your witness can make a wonderful and lasting impression on the new union?

Kicking and screaming (in a figurative way) will not be that witness.

 

[ora_pro_nobis]

Jaden(name removed by moderator), it seems clear that you don’t like this woman, and that’s up to you, but as you evidently love your brother you are going to have to let this go. He is an adult, making his own choices. It’s not your concern, neither is it your mother’s, until he asks you.
Getting defensive on this forum isn’t helping you, people are trying to give their opinions, which you asked for.
You don’t know what the future holds for them, it is perfectly possible that somewhere down the line they may want to foster, or even get the sterilisation reversed.
Please, just take a step back.

 

[Newzie52]

You’re failing to see that sterility isn’t an impediment if there is still openness to life.

The sterile person can be validly married if she’s willing to be open to life. I don’t see any openness to life in either one of them.

She avoids children’s celebrations, they don’t want to adopt or foster children. Where’s the openness to life there?

Part of the problem here is your being hung up on “openness to life.” The Church does NOT require someone who has been sterilized, no matter how objectively wrong it is, to attempt to reverse the procedure. That’s a fact. So barring an Old Testament-like miracle (Sarah, elderly, “infertile” wife of Abraham) clearly your future SIL is not going to become pregnant. (Were a miracle to take place, they would be expected to welcome the child.) The Church recognizes, also, the “unitive” aspect of sexual intercourse in marriage, and this, of course, is the same with fertile or infertile couples. As I understand it, with regard to the “procreative” aspect, and “openness to life”, an infertile couple must still observe the same “rules” with regard to the marital act as fertile couples (not going to get into the details here; it has been discussed elsewhere in these forums.)

Bottom line? You can be mad as heck, but her sterilization and subsequent infertility is NOT, I repeat NOT an impediment to Catholic marriage. No one else knows what is really in your brother and future SIL’s minds and hearts; THAT is what, at the time their vows are said, will determine the validity and sacramentality of their marriage, not her sterility, or what anyone else thinks.