Can I go visit everything at my local Mormon Temple?

[why_me]

Hi jstayii.

Here’s the first paragraph from an entry at Widipedia for the word “cult:”

““In religion and sociology, a cult is a term designating a cohesive group of people (generally, but not exclusively a relatively small and recently founded religious movement[citation needed]) devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society considers to be outside the mainstream or reaching the point of a taboo. Its status may come about either due to its novel belief system, its idiosyncratic practices, its perceived harmful effects on members, or because it perceived opposition to the interests of the mainstream culture. Non-religious groups may also display cult-like characteristics.””

I’d say that all the various branches of Mormonism, LDS, RLDS, FLDS, and others, fit very nicely into this definition. It is certain that Mormons are considered to be a cult by almost all orthodox Christians. Even among seculars, Mormons are considered odd, and outside the mainstream, though probably not for the same reasons that Christians consider them outside mainstream.

As does every other religious entity that is not an established catholic or protestant church. And since that is the case, I have to question jus who wrote that Wiki page. However, one can also equate catholicism to the above since I am sure that I can find someone that will claim that they suffered harmful effects from being catholic. Should I search the web to find such cases and post them here? Perhaps not.

The point that I am trying to make to show respect to another person’s religion. This is what a christian should do. It is so easy to brand a religion a cult but it does not make it so. And if I am not mistaken the first catholics to migrate to america must have been considered outside the mainstream, hence they began to settle in the Maryland area. However, not many catholics would venture down south to where the Klan was. The southerners did not take to catholics. Am I right?

It is time to remember the past and learn from it.

 

[Fidelia]

Okay, just curious - what is it in Mormonism that makes you think they are a cult? Mormons have around 12 million members worldwide, they are established entities of religion with the government, they believe in Jesus Christ as you and all Christians do, and recognize him as their Savior and Lord, and would die for that belief. Mormons shun Satan, abhor his influence, and are some of the strictest believers in following Christ, and shunning the influence of Satan I know.

They don’t consider themselves Christians like everyone else, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant Christians. They consider themselves separate. They want nothing to do with non-Mormons. My friend lived in a Mormon neighborhood, and no one talked to them. She had friends, who were not allowed to talk to her, and her mom was even told by parents not to let her talk to their kids. Her mom had a friend who left the Mormon church and told her all about it.

 

[jstayii]

Wrong.

Would you mind explaining to me? It was not my intention to tell you what you believe, but rather to help you understand why only members in good standing with the Mormon church can enter a temple. I am telling you my understanding of Catholicism - perhaps my terms are incorrect or I completely misunderstand. Please tell me more.

Also, it is my understanding that you cannot take Communion unless you are a Catholic - Mormons’ principles on only members entering temples and participating in ordinances is also similar to that. Again, please correct me and explain if I’m wrong in that understanding as well. My point is I’m sure there are some parallels that can be found in other Christian faiths, including even when Christ was on the earth (see my example above).

 

[jstayii]

They don’t consider themselves Christians like everyone else, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant Christians. They consider themselves separate. They want nothing to do with non-Mormons. My friend lived in a Mormon neighborhood, and no one talked to them. She had friends, who were not allowed to talk to her, and her mom was even told by parents not to let her talk to their kids. Her mom had a friend who left the Mormon church and told her all about it.

I’m sorry your friend had that experience. It pains me to see that someone was treated in such an un-Christian like manner. That is not what our religion teaches us to do. Any Mormon who thinks so is wrong, and I apologize on their behalf. I too live in a predominantly Mormon neighborhood in Utah. Most of my neighbors around me are non-Mormons. I am great friends with them. Our kids play together and are friends. It is too bad that some areas people believe they can’t be friends due to their religion. I have seen this in other religions, including Christian, and I know that is not what their religion teaches.

I don’t know where you’re getting the notion that Mormons don’t believe they are Christian. Our religion is centered around Christ. Our church is named the “Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints”. The Book of Mormon is entitled “The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of JESUS CHRIST”. We have one of the largest collections of Bible references to Jesus Christ available for anyone to use. We believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, and the only way to return to live with God. We believe He died for us, suffered for our sins, and by His Grace we are saved! We strive to follow His example and follow His teachings. Most Mormons who live their religion have a strong relationship with their Savior and are very offended when people say they aren’t “Christian”. If that isn’t what a true Christian should be, then what is?

 

[majick275]

As does every other religious entity that is not an established catholic or protestant church. And since that is the case, I have to question jus who wrote that Wiki page. However, one can also equate catholicism to the above since I am sure that I can find someone that will claim that they suffered harmful effects from being catholic. Should I search the web to find such cases and post them here? Perhaps not.

The point that I am trying to make to show respect to another person’s religion. This is what a christian should do. It is so easy to brand a religion a cult but it does not make it so. And if I am not mistaken the first catholics to migrate to america must have been considered outside the mainstream, hence they began to settle in the Maryland area. However, not many catholics would venture down south to where the Klan was. The southerners did not take to catholics. Am I right?

It is time to remember the past and learn from it.

I think this a slippery slope. should we show respect to satanists? vouduns? santeria? what examples do we have in scripture? how did the lord’s people in the bible deal with the priests of baal? worshipers of moloch or ashtoresth?

you might want to rethink your example on the immigrants in light of historical facts. the first european settlers on the continent were catholics. as to the south, florida and texas were full of catholic settlements long before the american revolution. St Augustine florida had a catholic church in 1565. Jamestown wasn’t until 1607 and plymouth rock in 1620. Louisiana still divides their state into parishes. they have been heavily catholic for a long time. maryland was where the british crown sent a lot of indentured “malcontents” and was just as likely to have anglican parishes as catholic. the KKK didn’t even exist until after the civil war. The south was full of catholics already then. the waves of immigrants in the industrial age (italian, polish, czech, irish, jewish, etc.) mostly came in through ellis island, NY and settled pretty heavily in the north. they were met with as much ethnic bigotry as religious prejudice. the knights of columbus were formed in Connecticut to counter severe persecution of Catholics primarily in the Irish community. so I have to say wrong on the “first catholic immigrants” and wrong again on the “down south” where you will find some of the oldest catholic churches in america. Now I will admit that in the early days of the US Catholics were only about 5% of the population. now we are 23%. hmmmm… there’s the real marvelous work and wonder.

I would also ask you to examine what is happening right now in france and the netherlands as examples of why accepting all religions is dangerous. it is an absolute myth that u.s. constitutional freedom of religion mandates this or that it is even desirable. I give you the modern day examples of Jim Jones, David Koresh and the church of jesus christ christian (aryan nations) as well known examples of american governmental intervention in religious practice. Do you feel that any of those was unwarranted? what about scientology? should that just be accepted?

Looking back at the nauvoo and utah periods of mormonism we see a very scary pattern that while not necessarily representative of the practices of the LDS today, is still the foundation of the SLC Mormon church doctrine today.

I am going to agree with you that we all need to be very careful in who/what we classify and how we judge them BUT at eh end of the day I think we do have to take stand for what is right. I don’t believe persecution is an acceptable answer but revealing the truth and providing a vehicle by which the lost sheep can be rescued is exactly what Christ asks of us.

 

[Allweather]

As does every other religious entity that is not an established catholic or protestant church…

Not necessarily. Read the def. again. It isn’t necessarily about harmful effects. I wouldn’t consider Islam a cult according to that definition, or Buddhism, at least not in countries where those are the dominant religions. Bear in mind, Mormonism is a breakaway from Protestant Christanity, bearing certain features that appear Christian, but aren’t. Plus, it is centered around a handful of personalities, like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. So, it was swimming in an ocean of orthodox Christians, albeit most of them Protestant, but some of them Catholic. That made them a cult.

However, one can also equate catholicism to the above since I am sure that I can find someone that will claim that they suffered harmful effects from being catholic. Should I search the web to find such cases and post them here? Perhaps not.

Again, it isn’t necessarily about harmful effects. In the main, I don’t see much harm being done by Mormonism outside the fact that it leads people AWAY from Jesus than towards, which for sure is harm, but that is a subjective, opinionative analysis, not concrete, the way some cults do harm by abusing children… well, I just remembered… some Mormon cults are accused of child abuse (FLDS - Warren Jeffs, et al), but those are a minority, I’m sure.

And if I am not mistaken the first catholics to migrate to america must have been considered outside the mainstream, hence they began to settle in the Maryland area. However, not many catholics would venture down south to where the Klan was. The southerners did not take to catholics. Am I right?

I’m not sure how many Catholics were present in antebellum south, probably not all that many, but there weren’t that many in the north, either, prior to the mass immigrations of the 19th century from Ireland, Germany, Italy, etc. There was a Catholic signer of the Declaration of Independence, and enough Catholics in the U.S. just after the Revolution to justify their having a Bishop. It probably is true that Catholicism was looked upon by the dominant Protestant churches as something to suspect, due to lingering Reformation sentiments about the papacy. Bear in mind, though, that in terms of doctrine, Protestants and Catholics are virtually identical. Protestants and Catholics are Christians, because they don’t disagree about the Trinity, or any other issue about the nature of God, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. Mormons, though, have very different notions of these things, and others, and so cannot be considered Christian except by very generous definition of that word.

 

[Allweather]

Would you mind explaining to me? It was not my intention to tell you what you believe, but rather to help you understand why only members in good standing with the Mormon church can enter a temple. I am telling you my understanding of Catholicism - perhaps my terms are incorrect or I completely misunderstand. Please tell me more.

Catholicism does not teach that only Catholics can be “saved.” I think that was what VWCrazy was referring to.

Also, it is my understanding that you cannot take Communion unless you are a Catholic - Mormons’ principles on only members entering temples and participating in ordinances is also similar to that. Again, please correct me and explain if I’m wrong in that understanding as well. My point is I’m sure there are some parallels that can be found in other Christian faiths, including even when Christ was on the earth (see my example above).

Maybe one difference is that we don’t require people to show an ID card at the door. Whether one goes to Eucharist or not is a matter between that person and God.

My own opinion is that the whole Mormon apparatus of secretive ceremonials, exclusionary practices, special wardrobes, etc, are mostly just brand identification techniques. Mormonism was born in spring of 1830 and needed ways to show itself unique among the Protestants around it. Almost everyone was in a church in those days, and many were bouncing from church to church. There wasn’t much else to do entertainment-wise. The Mormons needed to appeal to people as something different, hence the Book of Mormon, and the living prophet, etc.

 

[jstayii]

Plus, it is centered around a handful of personalities, like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. So, it was swimming in an ocean of orthodox Christians, albeit most of them Protestant, but some of them Catholic.

Explain to me how Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were harmful personalities. For every quote you show me that gives some sort of evidence that they were harmful I can give you 4 or 5 showing what they were actually doing was bringing people closer to Christ, and I guarantee my quotes will come from the source.

In the main, I don’t see much harm being done by Mormonism outside the fact that it leads people AWAY from Jesus than towards, which for sure is harm, but that is a subjective, opinionative analysis, not concrete, the way some cults do harm by abusing children… well, I just remembered… some Mormon cults are accused of child abuse (FLDS - Warren Jeffs, et al), but those are a minority, I’m sure.

Again, how does Mormonism lead people away from Jesus? My religion teaches me to be more like Jesus. Again, please see my comment above. This is silly that simple questions can’t be answered without attacks against the Mormon church. (oh, and the FLDS are not “Mormons” - they may call themselves as such, but the Mormons you know are not the “Mormons” of the FLDS church)

 

[Allweather]

Explain to me how Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were harmful personalities. For every quote you show me that gives some sort of evidence that they were harmful I can give you 4 or 5 showing what they were actually doing was bringing people closer to Christ, and I guarantee my quotes will come from the source.

Without getting into long discussions of the various crimes of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, I pose it to you in a way that includes Mormonism with every other breakaway sect with Christian roots: Anything that leads Christians away from unity, is a bad thing. Joseph Smith and his religious heirs did not lead people into unity with the ancient Christian faith that Jesus established upon the Apostles.

Again, how does Mormonism lead people away from Jesus? My religion teaches me to be more like Jesus.

Being more “like” Jesus isn’t the same as being united with Jesus, praying to Jesus, adoring Jesus in his Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist, or being united with the Body of Christ that was established by our Lord upon the authority of the Apostles. I’ve been to Mormon church, and have been struck by the absence of worship there. There is a lot of talk of Joseph Smith and Gordon Hinckley, but the name of Jesus is scarce, even non-existent. I heard the word Christ a couple of times, and a few mentions of the Atonement. But not the sort of worship that goes on in a Christian Church, where we gather not to give testimonies of the truth of a prophet or of a book, but to worship the savior of mankind, Jesus.

This is just my impression. I stand ready to be contradicted.

 

[jstayii]

Without getting into long discussions of the various crimes of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, I pose it to you in a way that includes Mormonism with every other breakaway sect with Christian roots: Anything that leads Christians away from unity, is a bad thing. Joseph Smith and his religious heirs did not lead people into unity with the ancient Christian faith that Jesus established upon the Apostles.

This is subject to interpretation by the individual. I believe it is probably the core of every Christian faith out there, on whether their church leads people into the unity with the ancient Christian faith that Jesus established upon the Apostles. I know the Mormon church believes they are that church. I know the Catholic church believes they are that church, and I know all Protestant faiths have some sort of variation of the same type of belief. As to whether Mormons are breaking away from that unity, I quote our 13th article of faith (from some of Joseph Smith’s writings), in which we quote Paul:

“We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”

We don’t condone or intend to bash or talk evil of other religions. Most religions can bring you closer to Christ on one way or another. We accept them, and welcome to our fold. I hope as Christians we can accept each other and learn from each other, rather than turn away each others’ beliefs, or criticize one another.

I’ve been to Mormon church, and have been struck by the absence of worship there. There is a lot of talk of Joseph Smith and Gordon Hinckley, but the name of Jesus is scarce, even non-existent. I heard the word Christ a couple of times, and a few mentions of the Atonement. But not the sort of worship that goes on in a Christian Church, where we gather not to give testimonies of the truth of a prophet or of a book, but to worship the savior of mankind, Jesus.

Unfortunately, many Mormons and Mormon congregations can get caught up in other elements of their religion that aren’t central to its core beliefs. This is unfortunate. Again, this is not what our religion teaches us to do. I agree there does need to be more talk and worship of Christ in many of the weekly worship services. While there are many where this is the case, there are probably way too many which focus is turned away from what is most important. I do not see this as a flaw of the Church, but rather a misunderstanding of many of the members, and the fact that our meetings are run by normal members of the Mormon Church.

I thank you for these comments - I have learned quite a bit, and it has made me realize there are ways us Mormons can be better people. I apologize if there are some within the church that have shown such a perception as you describe.

 

[Jean_Marie_1]

To get back to my original question:

Do the Mormons have security guards there to check your papers? Are you issued an ID card? It seems as thought Temple membership is more like my membership in the Knights of Columbus than my being a Catholic.

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus, who are the worthy members? How can you tell?

Catholig

They are interviewed by their bishop and a member of the stake presidency who determine their worthiness.

zerinus

 

[thomasf]

Zerinus, who are the worthy members? How can you tell?

Catholig

They will have the special underwear, aka temple garments, on underneath their clothing. Garments that they usually won’t speak of and will deny to people outside the church, from my experience.

 

[jstayii]

They will have the special underwear, aka temple garments, on underneath their clothing. Garments that they usually won’t speak of and will deny to people outside the church, from my experience.

Why would we deny that? Of course those that go to the temple wear garments. I wear garments - they are a symbol of the things taught in the temple and the ordinances performed, also a symbol of living a pure and chaste life.

 

[jstayii]

To get back to my original question:

Do the Mormons have security guards there to check your papers? Are you issued an ID card? It seems as thought Temple membership is more like my membership in the Knights of Columbus than my being a Catholic.

Yes - there are patrons (I wouldn’t necessarily call them security guards - I imagine each temple does have a level of security though) that check to see your recommend and verify you are worthy to enter. Your recommend is an ID card of sorts. Going to the temple is part of membership in the Mormon church, and contains key ordinances to Salvation as Mormons believe.

 

[thomasf]

Why would we deny that? Of course those that go to the temple wear garments. I wear garments - they are a symbol of the things taught in the temple and the ordinances performed, also a symbol of living a pure and chaste life.

You tell me. When my friend was converting, I had to explain this practice to him. And when he asked about it, they denied it. His wife to be, her family, the spiritual advisor. They kept telling him no we don’t do that. For almost a year, until it came time for him to enter the temple. Then suddenly they changed their story and the next thing you know he’s wearing the underwear.

I’ve had similar responses from other mormons. They either deny it or avoid the issue.

 

[jstayii]

You tell me. When my friend was converting, I had to explain this practice to him. And when he asked about it, they denied it. His wife to be, her family, the spiritual advisor. They kept telling him no we don’t do that. For almost a year, until it came time for him to enter the temple. Then suddenly they changed their story and the next thing you know he’s wearing the underwear.

I’ve had similar responses from other mormons. They either deny it or avoid the issue.

Maybe they were embarrassed, or worried someone might think they were weird (well, maybe we are) for wearing them. Underwear is a sensitive issue after all. The ordinances within the temple are sacred, and perhaps they interpreted that as they couldn’t admit they wore garments. I think that’s silly though - the rest of the world knows temple-going Mormons wear them. I don’t see why one can’t admit it, especially in preparation for the temple, or to become a member of the Mormon faith. I know as a former missionary we certainly weren’t taught to hide anything when teaching others about the church. There are evidently several bad apples out there. They shouldn’t be lying about stuff like that.

 

[Dauphin]

Why would we deny that? Of course those that go to the temple wear garments. I wear garments - they are a symbol of the things taught in the temple and the ordinances performed, also a symbol of living a pure and chaste life.

Hmm… it sounds like Joseph Smith took some tips from Guru Gobind Singh…

 

[colliric]

Unfortunately, many Mormons and Mormon congregations can get caught up in other elements of their religion that aren’t central to its core beliefs. This is unfortunate. Again, this is not what our religion teaches us to do. I agree there does need to be more talk and worship of Christ in many of the weekly worship services. While there are many where this is the case, there are probably way too many which focus is turned away from what is most important. I do not see this as a flaw of the Church, but rather a misunderstanding of many of the members, and the fact that our meetings are run by normal members of the Mormon Church.

I thank you for these comments - I have learned quite a bit, and it has made me realize there are ways us Mormons can be better people. I apologize if there are some within the church that have shown such a perception as you describe.

This is the reason why the Catholic Church does not “sermonise” during mass services, the Homily is a simple short explination of the teachings of Scripture and the original context it was written in. They are lawfully forced to be christocentric services so nothing like “personal sermonising” can occur at ANY TIME during mass.

Of all the church services I’ve ever been too, I was quite shocked to find this was so at very few other churches when one of the messages of the bible is “guys don’t be false christs and prophets”. The only exception was High Church Anglicanism, which is a rippoff of the Catholic Mass service anyway(They should just get it over with and follow Cardinal Newman into our fold, it’s silly they follow everything except papacy, I’ve even heard some of them pray the Rosary).

To me, I very slowly realised the Church of Christ is most likely the church which lets him speak for himself, by simply reading from the scriptures… every single day of the year.

The only church which bothers to do that is the Catholic Church. Since Luther decided to start teaching nice falsities, people have forgotten christ’s teaching that he is to be allowed to speak for himself during mass.

 

[jstayii]

To me, I very slowly realised the Church of Christ is most likely the church which lets him speak for himself, by simply reading from the scriptures… every single day of the year.

The only church which bothers to do that is the Catholic Church. Since Luther decided to start teaching nice falsities, people have forgotten christ’s teaching that he is to be allowed to speak for him, self during mass.

I beg to differ. The Mormon church also encourages its members to read the scriptures (yes, the Bible too), every day of the year, even twice a day, and also as a family, every day of the year. Personal prayer morning, night, before meals, as a family morning and night, and any other time deemed necessary is also encouraged.

Yes, I agree, there is “personal sermonization” in the Mormon Church at the congregational level. The Mormon church is however probably one of the only Christian religions out there other than Catholics that claim to have the Priesthood, just as in Christ’s days. They claim that revelation and guidance for the church comes from God, through the Prophet and 12 Apostles, just as in the days of Peter, and on down to the general Membership. That priesthood leads and guides our church, never changes, and keeps it’s teachings strong, very similar to the Catholic church. While I am able to blame my fellow members for personal falacies and imperfections, I know my church will never fail me, and its teachings still remain true.

What am I saying? I’m saying that our churches are more similar than you think. For a church to truly be restored (whether you believe that or not), it in my opinion would have to be closer to the Catholic church than any other. The Catholic church began closest to the life of the Savior than most religions on the earth today. The only other option, should there be one, IMO is a restoration, directly from God Himself!