Can I have some opinions on my theory?

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

I respect all opinions, so feel free to give any (name removed by moderator)ut. I believe that there is a sad reality that a lot of people that believe in a deity don’t understand. There is a universal understanding (even among atheists and agnostics) that we are given free will. The difference between beliefs is that I believe that God gives us free will whereas atheists don’t believe that there is a God.

It is universally understood that with our actions, there is an appropriate reaction. If I throw the coffee mug against the wall, the mug will break, coffee will spill on the floor, and there might possibly be wall damage.

When someone makes an evil decision (such as shooting people in a school), there will be an corresponding reaction. Obviously, the results will not be pleasant. In no way, shape, or form will there be anything positive to come out of this. Now, when people pray for the situation (such as the school shooting that happened this morning) I feel a bit of a disturbance. If God was going to do anything, anything at all to help these people, why didn’t he just stop the shooting from happening in the first place? Honestly. If there was anything at all that God could do, the best possible thing would be to smite the shooter the moment that he made the decision to kill these people. Not only would the people still be living, our society would have one less maniac to make decisions that have a negative impact on our culture and community.

When we comprehend this, it gives our lives an entirely new meaning of responsibility.
Instead of praying about the situation, let’s use our free will to do good and positive things. Let’s console and try to comfort the families of the victims. Let’s start a fundraiser and take donations so that funerals won’t be a financial burden on the families. Right? If anything, THIS IS GOD AT WORK. Through his people. Spiritually speaking, we are Corporis Christi. The Body of Christ. Let’s act in Persona Christi. Our actions have direct affects on a given circumstance. We could pray that things work out in a situation that is already bad, or we could do something about it. From a religious standpoint, we are obligated to do both, but I want to emphasize my understanding of how important it is for us to make physical decisions.

I just think that this is a very important concept that we all need to be aware of, regardless if you believe in a God or not. At the end of the day, we’re all human beings striving towards the better of society and mankind. We can’t let our differences hold us back. We have to co-exist. Jesus constantly preached love and mercy. Not hate and bigotry.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I respect all opinions, so feel free to give any (name removed by moderator)ut. I believe that there is a sad reality that a lot of people that believe in a deity don’t understand. There is a universal understanding (even among atheists and agnostics) that we are given free will.

I wouldn’t call it universal. There are those that would disagree. but won’t go down that road.

The difference between beliefs is that I believe that God gives us free will whereas atheists don’t believe that there is a God.

There do exists those that don’t see free will is something givin from a god (lower case ‘g’ here as I’m being inclusive of more than the Abrahamic god-concept).

If God was going to do anything, anything at all to help these people, why didn’t he just stop the shooting from happening in the first place? Honestly. If there was anything at all that God could do, the best possible thing would be to smite the shooter the moment that he made the decision to kill these people. Not only would the people still be living, our society would have one less maniac to make decisions that have a negative impact on our culture and community.

From what I’ve read in these forums (which is usually in a message containing the “vending machine” metaphor) prayer isn’t necessarily for a physical intervention, but for emotional strength, grace, so on. The explanation also given includes that intervening would be a disruption of some one’s free will.

Instead of praying about the situation, let’s use our free will to do good and positive things. Let’s console and try to comfort the families of the victims. Let’s start a fundraiser and take donations so that funerals won’t be a financial burden on the families. Right?

I’m a proponent of taking action to help people. Though I think the phrase “instead of praying…” could be removed from your expression here; if some one does something positive and prays I wouldn’t expect a negative outcome. “Instead of” sounds like it is discouraging prayer (which I don’t think is your intent). Perhaps “Instead of **only **praying” better expresses what you are trying to say?

 

[StraitGateSheep]

Greetings,

You are on the money so far as the visible/ physical side.

2 Tim.3
[17] …the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto >> all good works.

Matt.15
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your >> good works,
and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

We are weak/ dead in Spirit again.

Keep well brother,

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**Gospel

Jesus constantly preached love and mercy. Not hate and bigotry. **

Jesus also preached virtue, not sin. Many who practice sin think that those who disapprove of their sins are full of hate and bigotry, when they are really desiring to help the sinner by calling him to an awareness of sin. It is love to help others to see their sins and urge them to be better than they are. We all go before the Judge of us all, and we should be grateful to those who helped us repent of our sins before we stand unrepentant before God’s throne which is both just and merciful. We should always fear his justice and love his mercy.

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

I wouldn’t call it universal. There are those that would disagree. but won’t go down that road.

Who would disagree that we are able to make our own decisions whenever we want to? Aside from the possessed and the mentally ill, it is my understanding that we have this free will. Right now, I have the choice to continue typing or take a shower. I chose to continue typing and I will take my shower after I run later on. God knows what I will do because he is eternal and present in every moment of time.

This is my understanding.

There do exists those that don’t see free will is something givin from a god (lower case ‘g’ here as I’m being inclusive of more than the Abrahamic god-concept).

True, but this is coming from a Pro-Catholic perspective.

From what I’ve read in these forums (which is usually in a message containing the “vending machine” metaphor) prayer isn’t necessarily for a physical intervention, but for emotional strength, grace, so on. The explanation also given includes that intervening would be a disruption of some one’s free will.

I’ve never heard of the vending machine metaphor. Care to link me to it?

And I don’t think that by God intervening someone would lose their sense of free will. Their free will might be influenced to make a certain decision though. Look at Jonah and the Whale. God told Jonah to go to Nineveh, but instead he went to Tarshish. Now… If God had told me to go somewhere, I would be inclined to follow divine instructions. But, I still have the choice to not follow God’s command. As far as grace and patience, I see that as a gift that can be given from God. Which, also wouldn’t affect someone’s free will. God would just be giving us tools or maybe opportunities to help us in a given situation.

I’m a proponent of taking action to help people. Though I think the phrase “instead of praying…” could be removed from your expression here; if some one does something positive and prays I wouldn’t expect a negative outcome. “Instead of” sounds like it is discouraging prayer (which I don’t think is your intent). Perhaps “Instead of **only **praying” better expresses what you are trying to say?

You are correct. I will rephrase that.

Thank you so much for the criticism!

Greetings,

You are on the money so far as the visible/ physical side.

2 Tim.3
[17] …the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto >> all good works.

Matt.15
[16] Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your >> good works,
and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

We are weak/ dead in Spirit again.

Keep well brother,

Thank you for the verses

**Gospel

Jesus constantly preached love and mercy. Not hate and bigotry. **

Jesus also preached virtue, not sin. Many who practice sin think that those who disapprove of their sins are full of hate and bigotry, when they are really desiring to help the sinner by calling him to an awareness of sin. It is love to help others to see their sins and urge them to be better than they are. We all go before the Judge of us all, and we should be grateful to those who helped us repent of our sins before we stand unrepentant before God’s throne which is both just and merciful. We should always fear his justice and love his mercy.

I completely agree!

 

[Dorothy]

My pastor gives a certain teaching about once a year. He says when people ask "Where was God when (a specific tragedy) this happened? He said they were in the people who came to the aid of those who were sorrowing and needed comfort. He was in the people of those who came forward to donate blood (911), He was in the people who had fundraisers and donated needed monies to families that were suffering severe tragedies.

Our Lord didn’t stop the people who crucified Him. He could have sent 10,000 angels to mow down the Roman soldiers and the bystanders who were spewing hate.

This life is not a bowl or roses, but the Lord can get us through ANYTHING if we trust him. And, through from suffering we can learn of and experience His peace.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I respect all opinions, so feel free to give any (name removed by moderator)ut. I believe that there is a sad reality that a lot of people that believe in a deity don’t understand. There is a universal understanding (even among atheists and agnostics) that we are given free will. The difference between beliefs is that I believe that God gives us free will whereas atheists don’t believe that there is a God.

It is universally understood that with our actions, there is an appropriate reaction. If I throw the coffee mug against the wall, the mug will break, coffee will spill on the floor, and there might possibly be wall damage.

When someone makes an evil decision (such as shooting people in a school), there will be an corresponding reaction. Obviously, the results will not be pleasant. In no way, shape, or form will there be anything positive to come out of this. Now, when people pray for the situation (such as the school shooting that happened this morning) I feel a bit of a disturbance. If God was going to do anything, anything at all to help these people, why didn’t he just stop the shooting from happening in the first place? Honestly. If there was anything at all that God could do, the best possible thing would be to smite the shooter the moment that he made the decision to kill these people. Not only would the people still be living, our society would have one less maniac to make decisions that have a negative impact on our culture and community.

When we comprehend this, it gives our lives an entirely new meaning of responsibility.
Instead of praying about the situation, let’s use our free will to do good and positive things. Let’s console and try to comfort the families of the victims. Let’s start a fundraiser and take donations so that funerals won’t be a financial burden on the families. Right? If anything, THIS IS GOD AT WORK. Through his people. Spiritually speaking, we are Corporis Christi. The Body of Christ. Let’s act in Persona Christi. Our actions have direct affects on a given circumstance. We could pray that things work out in a situation that is already bad, or we could do something about it. From a religious standpoint, we are obligated to do both, but I want to emphasize my understanding of how important it is for us to make physical decisions.

I just think that this is a very important concept that we all need to be aware of, regardless if you believe in a God or not. At the end of the day, we’re all human beings striving towards the better of society and mankind. We can’t let our differences hold us back. We have to co-exist. Jesus constantly preached love and mercy. Not hate and bigotry.

Not certain what your theory is but we should always exercise charity and empathize with the suffering. It is hard to recommend specific actions in the cases you cite because they are so common how would one know where to begin. Certainly we have an obligation to pray for the convesion of hearts. But all is in God’s hands.

Linus2nd

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

But all is in God’s hands.

Linus2nd

I have a lot of trouble believing that our God (who is all power, full of mercy, love, compassion, and forgiveness) could just allow such evil to exist in the world. How he could just sit back and watch the atrocities of 9/11 while help someone find their car keys or score the winning touchdown of a football game. Why do bad things happen to good people? I have a lot of trouble understanding this, and I’m just trying to make sense of it.

 

[DevoutRabbit]

I agree with what you said about others needing to work together for the betterment of mankind, regardless of belief in God.

I’m not sure if you are saying this, but what I am reading is, “Prayer alone without good works is not as good as prayer with good works.”

I don’t believe this is true in certain cases. God does and has called very holy people to live a life of prayer rather than of service. Looking back at all of the Church mystics, hermits, and cloistered religious, I think our world today would be lost without the fervent prayers of these people.

Also, the Church Triumphant, for example, is comprised of souls praying constantly without “physical actions” along with all of the angels in Heaven.

The Catechism is a good basic source about the necessity of prayer.

Prayer is like the foundational necessity to overcome evil. If I needed help, and someone said, “Do you want me to pray for you or physically help you?” I would say, “BOTH!” But I would never say, “Just physically help me, no need to pray for me then if you do that.” The need for prayer is the constant.

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

I agree with what you said about others needing to work together for the betterment of mankind, regardless of belief in God.

I’m not sure if you are saying this, but what I am reading is, “Prayer alone without good works is not as good as prayer with good works.”

I don’t believe this is true in certain cases. God does and has called very holy people to live a life of prayer rather than of service. Looking back at all of the Church mystics, hermits, and cloistered religious, I think our world today would be lost without the fervent prayers of these people.

Also, the Church Triumphant, for example, is comprised of souls praying constantly without “physical actions” along with all of the angels in Heaven.

The Catechism is a good basic source about the necessity of prayer.

Prayer is like the foundational necessity to overcome evil. If I needed help, and someone said, “Do you want me to pray for you or physically help you?” I would say, “BOTH!” But I would never say, “Just physically help me, no need to pray for me then if you do that.” The need for prayer is the constant.

Not exactly what I’m trying to get across. I completely agree with what you said at the end. If I am in a car crash and in danger of dying, I would want the paramedics to both physically assist me as well as to pray for me.

There are some situations where the only thing that you can do is pray. What am I supposed to do about the school shooting when it was happening? I can’t teleport over there and uppercut the guy into oblivion (although it would be pretty cool). If I encounter someone that needs their pancreas removed, there isn’t much I can do in that situation either. I am not a doctor. I don’t even know what the pancreas looks like or how to locate it. I would probably do more harm than good by trying to remove this man’s pancreas. I don’t think there is a youtube video or a wikihow page on how to remove a pancreas.

So yes, prayer is needed, but so are good works of faith. We have responsibility, and people need to realize that. I started thinking and forming this rough draft of a theory when I saw facebook posts from people that are generally bad in behavior, they never go to church, and they never do anything productive for society. They would post comments about how they are praying for this situation, and that just outright puzzled me.

I find the situation similar to the people that only acknowledge God’s existence when a family member or loved one has passed away.

 

[jritenour]

My pastor gives a certain teaching about once a year. He says when people ask "Where was God when (a specific tragedy) this happened? He said they were in the people who came to the aid of those who were sorrowing and needed comfort. He was in the people of those who came forward to donate blood (911), He was in the people who had fundraisers and donated needed monies to families that were suffering severe tragedies.

Our Lord didn’t stop the people who crucified Him. He could have sent 10,000 angels to mow down the Roman soldiers and the bystanders who were spewing hate.

This life is not a bowl or roses, but the Lord can get us through ANYTHING if we trust him. And, through from suffering we can learn of and experience His peace.

So true!

There is no way all bad things in this life will cease to happen. My experience during bad times has been #1 He will stop the storm -or- #2 He will ride with us in the storm.

Should we rush to help someone? Absolutely

From James chapter 2:

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

God does provide and yes we should answer the call when called.

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

So true!

There is no way all bad things in this life will cease to happen. My experience during bad times has been #1 He will stop the storm -or- #2 He will ride with us in the storm.

Should we rush to help someone? Absolutely

From James chapter 2:

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

God does provide and yes we should answer the call when called.

Yes, I believe that God is ever-present, has not, and will not abandon us.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**Gospel

Yes, I believe that God is ever-present, has not, and will not abandon us. **

Exactly. And anyone who disagrees should read the Book of Job.

 

[DevoutRabbit]

So yes, prayer is needed, but so are good works of faith.

I am following you with the pancreas analogy and the frustration with people who only believe in God and/or pray when it is convenient.

But what is your view on people who devote their lives completely to prayer rather than prayer and service? Such as cloistered religious, hermits, and the like?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**But what is your view on people who devote their lives completely to prayer rather than prayer and service? **

Those who pray for others are performing a service.

Perhaps a greater service than anyone else can provide.

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

I am following you with the pancreas analogy and the frustration with people who only believe in God and/or pray when it is convenient.

But what is your view on people who devote their lives completely to prayer rather than prayer and service? Such as cloistered religious, hermits, and the like?

People that devote their lives to prayer are preforming a service, just not a physical service. And there is nothing wrong with that. Living a life of prayer is to be respected. The people that do this are undoubtedly more devoted to their faith than I am, and they definitely have more patience. I can see where it would be a life filled with joy, though. To be free and disconnected from the world… That must be nice.

However, not everyone does this, obviously.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

True, but this is coming from a Pro-Catholic perspective.

While I would usually assume messages in this forum are from a Catholic perspective in the earlier message the references to the religious/atheist dichotomy and talk of universal understandings it seemed appropriate not to make that assumption here.

I’ve never heard of the vending machine metaphor. Care to link me to it?

Sure, it comes up in these forums all the time. In summary some one ask about the effectiveness of intercessory prayer as it doesn’t seem to impact the outcome of various situations. Some one else will respond saying that God is not a vending machine, taking request to dispense gifts. It will be stated that prayer is about changing the person that is praying, to be transformed by grace, so on.

 

[trushatg]

I was having similar thoughts regarding your message as well. It seems that we as Christians easily fall prey to believing that prayer is a means for God to swoop in and make things better while we eat popcorn on the sidelines. This thinking is also similar to believing that people will listen to hypocritical preachers, (which we all are, me especially) and change their lives. I believe that we need to increase our emphasis on acts of love. They will no the truth when they see it not when they hear it. I agree with your theory, and I think that love is the greatest prayer of all. It takes zero words and lots of concentrated effort to overcome our selfish motives and put others first. At the end of the day, it is loving actions that will touch hearts. The only hearts that change from words are the ones that have already been touched by love and have seen the truth in it. You can tell someone you love them a million times, but if your actions don’t reflect the words they are meaningless…or to paraphrase St Paul, “without love you are a clanging gong.” Everyone knows how annoying clanging gongs are

 

[Gospel_of_Chaos]

I was having similar thoughts regarding your message as well. It seems that we as Christians easily fall prey to believing that prayer is a means for God to swoop in and make things better while we eat popcorn on the sidelines. This thinking is also similar to believing that people will listen to hypocritical preachers, (which we all are, me especially) and change their lives. I believe that we need to increase our emphasis on acts of love. They will no the truth when they see it not when they hear it. I agree with your theory, and I think that love is the greatest prayer of all. It takes zero words and lots of concentrated effort to overcome our selfish motives and put others first. At the end of the day, it is loving actions that will touch hearts. The only hearts that change from words are the ones that have already been touched by love and have seen the truth in it. You can tell someone you love them a million times, but if your actions don’t reflect the words they are meaningless…or to paraphrase St Paul, “without love you are a clanging gong.” Everyone knows how annoying clanging gongs are

That’s awesome.