Can I keep the "Lutheran Grace"?

[Contrabass101]

I am not yet a Catholic, but I have begun to seriously consider conversion. I am not as of yet sure that Catholicism is true, but I sure wish it were!

However, I come from a Lutheran background and I really love some of the Luteran teachings.

I read something by Chesterton where he says that Luther basically is a Catholic heretic who focused not too much on the mystery of Grace, but rather focused too little on all the other Catholic mysteries.

So my question is, what can I take with me, and what will I have to renounce? Is the terms “Grace alone” and “Christ alone” acceptable to a Catholic, and how are they understood.

• CB

 

[Genesis315]

Definitely, we are saved by grace alone and Christ alone.

The difference (and maybe it’s not a difference) is we see the Sacraments as visible signs of the grace we receive through faith They are true channels of grace. Also we respond to grace through love/good works.

Likewise, it is Christ alone who saves. But, as Christians, we are all called to participate in His work–sharing the Gospel, praying for one another, etc. We are His Body and He is our Head. This is the essence of the doctrine concerning the Communion of Saints.

I hope that helps!

 

[Leopard]

I thought you were talking about the prayer you as a Lutheran customarily prayed before meals.

Never mind.

 

[iamscifimike]

I believe that top guys from each church got together and discussed salvation and agreed that though we use different terminology, we agree on salvation and the means by which it is acheived.(Is this your Lutheran Grace?)

I also believe that Luther’s criticisms of the chuch were of actions perpetrated by individuals of the Church and not reflected by Church teaching. Furthermore, there was a lot of political motivation in the split and from a certain point of view Luther was used as a puppet to fascilitate the split(the fall guy to take that 1st step away from the Church.

He wanted reform within the church not separation from it, my suspicion is that he was not moving with the co-operation of the Holy Spirit otherwise he would have been succesful.

I am under the impression that other than the Anglican Church, the Lutheran is the most Catholic amond “reformers” and by breaking from the church the way the did, their connection to Apostolic succession was lost.

I have a feeling that by reconciling with the Catholic Church you will be able to keep everything you love about the Lutheran practice and you only gain more to love in the fullness of the Catholic Faith

Gosh I didn’t plan on saying this much but, I think there is more to say.

 

[wanner47]

I have a feeling that by reconciling with the Catholic Church you will be able to keep everything you love about the Lutheran practice and you only gain more to love in the fullness of the Catholic Faith

.

I was a Lutheran for 22 years, and I can attest that this is definitely the truth.

Good luck in your journey, and have a safe swim across the Tiber!

 

[fellowChristian]

I have a question!!

How do you know it is the “Lutheran Grace”? and not
the “Catholic Grace”?


And those “Lutheran teachings”? Not all were his.
You’ll see what I mean further down the road.
And to truly understand Martin Luther you have to read his letters he wrote when he was still Catholic.
Isn’t it funny.
Everyone wants to be the “Original” but there can only be one “Original” the rest are just “copies”.

Just a thought.

God Bless you on your journey!
You really should read this

Chapter One: Man’s Capacity for God
usccb.org/catechism/text/entiretoc1.htm

This has more teaching about our faith.

 

[Contarini]

I have a question!!

How do you know it is the “Lutheran Grace”? and not
the “Catholic Grace”?

fellowChristian,

The equivocal sense of “Catholic” is one of the most basic problems in ecumenism, I think. You believe (and very likely believe rightly) that the “Catholic Church” of the Creeds subsists in your Communion–that is, that the fellowship of local churches with the bishop of Rome embodies the fullness of the faith, so that its teachings are protected from error by God and nothing that is good and true is in principle incompatible with it. In that sense, what you said above is absolutely right. All truth is Catholic truth. All goodness is Catholic goodness.

But here’s the problem–the “Catholic Church” is also a particular community shaped by particular historical circumstances, with rituals and disciplines and yes, even doctrines (in their concrete formulation) that do not necessarily embody all the truth and goodness there is. And furthermore, as limited human beings we necessarily encounter the Catholic Church (or any other church) at the local level, so that not all the things available in the Communion as a whole are available to a given individual.

Therefore, it is clearly true–and the Pope has explicitly recognized this–that people coming into the Catholic Church need to “bring with them” the concrete expressions of faith to which they are accustomed insofar as those do not violate the truth of Catholicism. This enriches everyone. Those concrete expressions are by definition Catholic insofar as they are orthodox, but they are also Lutheran or Methodist or Pentecostal or whatever insofar as they have been shaped by those specific historical traditions and not by the historical tradition preserved for the past 500 years in union with Rome.

Edwin

 

[Angainor]

Likewise, it is Christ alone who saves. But…

There are no “buts”. That’s the good news, that there are no buts. It is Christ alone who saves.

However, it is appropriate to say “and”, as in;

Likewise, it is Christ alone who saves. And, as Christians, we are all called to share the Gospel, pray for one another, etc.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

So my question is, what can I take with me, and what will I have to renounce? Is the terms “Grace alone” and “Christ alone” acceptable to a Catholic, and how are they understood.

• CB

The fact is Lutherans and Protestants understand grace very differently, here is a thread I made on the issue:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=165229

Both of those terms are acceptable to Catholics BUT we mean VERY DIFFERENT things than Lutherans do by those terms.

I hope you continue to look into the Catholic Church and I encourage you to keep asking any questions you might have.

 

[Ghosty]

I’ll second Catholic Dude’s suggestion to understand the difference in what Catholics mean by Grace as opposed to Lutherans. Catholic theology means a LOT more by the term Grace than the special favor and dispensation of God, and that makes a world of difference; only by properly understanding that difference can you come to appreciate what the Sacraments mean, and how they make us truly Holy.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Melo]

I thought you were talking about the prayer you as a Lutheran customarily prayed before meals.

Never mind.

That’s funny.

 

[dylanschrader]

Here’s some of what the Council of Trent said, condemning heresies which taught justification apart from the grace given through Christ:

If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

The Catholic Church, too, has always taught the unicity of Christ as savior. See, for example, the document Dominus Iesus.

 

[cpayne]

I thought you were talking about the prayer you as a Lutheran customarily prayed before meals.

Never mind.

“Our Father in Heaven, please bless this food, but in an appropriately Lutheran manner. Amen.”

 

[DebChris]

I am not yet a Catholic, but I have begun to seriously consider conversion. I am not as of yet sure that Catholicism is true, but I sure wish it were!

However, I come from a Lutheran background and I really love some of the Luteran teachings.

I read something by Chesterton where he says that Luther basically is a Catholic heretic who focused not too much on the mystery of Grace, but rather focused too little on all the other Catholic mysteries.

So my question is, what can I take with me, and what will I have to renounce? Is the terms “Grace alone” and “Christ alone” acceptable to a Catholic, and how are they understood.

• CB

Read Dietrich Boenhoeffer’s Costly Grace. Boenhoeffer was a Luthern minister who died under the Nazi Regime. The only thing that I have found not in keeping with the Magisterium is the concept of two Sacraments while the Catholic Church holds that there are seven. I found it enlightening that what I thought Luther taught is not really what he taught. There is a difference between cheap grace and costly grace. Cheap grace is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because it basically says I can continue living my old life. Costly grace on the other hand recognizes our need for conversion and response to the price paid by Jesus on Calvary. Yes, we are redeemed but that does not mean continuing to be enslaved by sin. Like the Israelites of the OT we need to leave Egypt behind us.
St. James writes, “Show me faith without works and I will show you the faith that underlies my works.”

 

[Ghosty]

Read Dietrich Boenhoeffer’s Costly Grace. Boenhoeffer was a Luthern minister who died under the Nazi Regime. The only thing that I have found not in keeping with the Magisterium is the concept of two Sacraments while the Catholic Church holds that there are seven. I found it enlightening that what I thought Luther taught is not really what he taught. There is a difference between cheap grace and costly grace. Cheap grace is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because it basically says I can continue living my old life. Costly grace on the other hand recognizes our need for conversion and response to the price paid by Jesus on Calvary. Yes, we are redeemed but that does not mean continuing to be enslaved by sin. Like the Israelites of the OT we need to leave Egypt behind us.
St. James writes, “Show me faith without works and I will show you the faith that underlies my works.”

Yes, but does the book describe what Grace is? That is the fundamental difference between Luther (and the other Reformers) and the Church, which Trent addressed. Infused versus imputed Righteousness, and issues like that, are the real bone of contention once you get into the theology of it.

Peace and God bless!

 

[DebChris]

Yes, but does the book describe what Grace is? That is the fundamental difference between Luther (and the other Reformers) and the Church, which Trent addressed. Infused versus imputed Righteousness, and issues like that, are the real bone of contention once you get into the theology of it.

Peace and God bless!

I don’t claim to be a theologian. The main emphasis of the book is that we cannot take grace for granted. Grace is after all a pure gift of the Holy Spirit. The grace that we receive needs a response on our part. That response is obedience to the call of God. It involves repentence and conversion of heart. It means picking up our cross and following after him.
These are two quotes from the book:
“Sanctification is possible only within the visible Church.”
“The fruit of the Spirit is a gift from God, and only he can produce it.”

 

[Ghosty]

I don’t claim to be a theologian. The main emphasis of the book is that we cannot take grace for granted. Grace is after all a pure gift of the Holy Spirit. The grace that we receive needs a response on our part. That response is obedience to the call of God. It involves repentence and conversion of heart. It means picking up our cross and following after him.
These are two quotes from the book:
“Sanctification is possible only within the visible Church.”
“The fruit of the Spirit is a gift from God, and only he can produce it.”

Fair enough.

This is just a particular area of interest for me because I became Catholic without any real exposure to the various strains of Protestant theology beyond basic introduction. Since that time I’ve learned more about Protestant views and have come to realize how vastly different the understanding of Grace is, at least in terms of what it is.

I’ve found that this is apparent even in how the term is typically used, as both Protestants and Catholics will typically speak of being “saved” by the Grace of God, while Catholics will generally also talk about what we DO with Grace, such as love, work, pray, fast, grow spiritually, you name it. This is because, in Catholic theology, Grace is not merely Divine favor or dispensation of the guilt of sin, but the very Life of God that fills us and enables us to act in a supernatural way. It’s a difference that many Protestants and Catholics don’t openly realize, but it’s clearly present when both sides talk about the issue. It also cuts to the root of our differences on Sacraments and many other practices, as when Grace is understood as the Life of God the Sacraments become quite obvious, as they map directly on to the steps needed to foster and promote life in general (birth/Baptism, healing/Confession, nurishment/Eucharist, maturation/Confirmation, ect). So it’s a very important matter that can be easily forgotten or overlooked.

Anyway, thanks for the information!

Peace and God bless!

 

[Hlafdige]

fellowChristian,
Therefore, it is clearly true–and the Pope has explicitly recognized this–that people coming into the Catholic Church need to “bring with them” the concrete expressions of faith to which they are accustomed insofar as those do not violate the truth of Catholicism.

True – but entering the Catholic Church one also has to be willing to lay it all on the line. Not to guard the beliefs or practices you bring with you as your possession - they become negotiable like any personal asset, including your life which God can require of you at any time.