Can I know I'm saved?

[ProdglArchitect]

Since I am not a trained theologian, I’ll point you to the following notes in the Lutheran Study Bible put out by Concordia Publishing House:

Note on Romans 6:1-14
We may be tempted to make grace an invitation to sin. Because God will forgive me, why not do what I want? This immature attitude misses this point: Christ unites Himself to us. In His death and resurrection, we receive forgiveness and life. He calls us to live in His life, not to turn back to a life dominated by sin. He enables us to live in the freedom of His grace.

Note on Romans 6:15-23
Although many people consider freedom to be the ultimate human right, no one is truly free spiritually. We were slaves to sin and bound to death. Knowing this, Jesus came to serve us by giving His life on the cross and rising for us. Freed from sin, we can now serve God. Only when we are “slaves” to God will we have freedom to be the people He created us to be.

Neither of these address the presented question… at all… maybe tangentially, but not with any meaningful correlation.

To Johnathon, yes that is essentially what OSAS implies, and if it were true then yes, sin ceases to be a big deal; which is a fundamental reason it cannot be true. A person has to be willing to repent and accept forgiveness before forgiveness can be given.

 

[jonathan_hili]

Since I am not a trained theologian, I’ll point you to the following notes in the Lutheran Study Bible put out by Concordia Publishing House:

Note on Romans 6:1-14
We may be tempted to make grace an invitation to sin. Because God will forgive me, why not do what I want? This immature attitude misses this point: Christ unites Himself to us. In His death and resurrection, we receive forgiveness and life. He calls us to live in His life, not to turn back to a life dominated by sin. He enables us to live in the freedom of His grace.

Note on Romans 6:15-23
Although many people consider freedom to be the ultimate human right, no one is truly free spiritually. We were slaves to sin and bound to death. Knowing this, Jesus came to serve us by giving His life on the cross and rising for us. Freed from sin, we can now serve God. Only when we are “slaves” to God will we have freedom to be the people He created us to be.

Of course, who’d dispute that. But it really doesn’t answer the question. Yes, Christ calls us to live saintly lives but we do sin, and we do so consciously. My question is: doesn’t this mean anything with regards to our salvation?

 

[jonathan_hili]

Neither of these address the presented question… at all… maybe tangentially, but not with any meaningful correlation.

To Johnathon, yes that is essentially what OSAS implies, and if it were true then yes, sin ceases to be a big deal; which is a fundamental reason it cannot be true. A person has to be willing to repent and accept forgiveness before forgiveness can be given.

That’s what I think too. I take the point being made, and it’s certainly true that Christ does call us to live a regenerated life and that therefore we should shun sin. But to conclude that deliberate sinning has no affect on our salvation once we have faith is a real problem.

 

[Monergistic]

how is sin a big issue and why shouldn’t we continue sinning since it has no bearing on our salvation? If Christ’s sacrificial death has cleansed us from all our sins, repented sins and unrepented sins, what does it matter how many sins we continue to pile on?

From Romans 6.

15What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You’re asking a question which appears in Scripture and is addressed there in some detail. This would strongly suggest that your question arises quite naturally from the plain reading of the Gospel message, from the first century right up to now on this forum. Please make this connection- you are questioning a Protestant concerning Protestant doctrine, but a question identical to yours is produced and addressed by Paul in his letter to the Romans. You’re not just questioning Protestant teaching- you’re also questioning Pauline teaching, and your question has been addressed and answered. What can we do as Protestants except echo that answer. What would you expect from a Lutheran catechism or commentary or any other set of formal Protestant teachings except the content of the answer that Paul gave.

 

[ltwin]

Are you saying that if we sin, our sins are automatically forgiven even if we are not consciously repentant and ask for forgiveness/confess?

No. Repentance must be sought. We have to confess our sins. If we confess our sins, God will be faithful to forgive them. Parallel with confession there must be true repentance, a true turning from sin.

Moreover, if this is true, how is sin a big issue and why shouldn’t we continue sinning since it has no bearing on our salvation? If Christ’s sacrificial death has cleansed us from all our sins, repented sins and unrepented sins, what does it matter how many sins we continue to pile on?

It matters greatly. Continued, willful sin grieves the Holy Spirit. Continual, willful sin will result in the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from one’s life, a loss of faith, and the loss of salvation.

 

[chicagofire59]

If a person sins a mortal sin, asks for forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and truly is sorry, God forgives and he/she is saved?

 

[jonathan_hili]

You’re asking a question which appears in Scripture and is addressed there in some detail. This would strongly suggest that your question arises quite naturally from the plain reading of the Gospel message, from the first century right up to now on this forum. Please make this connection- you are questioning a Protestant concerning Protestant doctrine, but a question identical to yours is produced and addressed by Paul in his letter to the Romans. You’re not just questioning Protestant teaching- you’re also questioning Pauline teaching, and your question has been addressed and answered. What can we do as Protestants except echo that answer. What would you expect from a Lutheran catechism or commentary or any other set of formal Protestant teachings except the content of the answer that Paul gave.

Okay, so I’ll be a bit like the Ethiopian eunuch - only a bit guys!!! (sorry Origin) - and ask for someone to interpret Scripture for me.

Are you saying then, that the position is that once you are “saved” you no longer sin? And if you do sin, then you are not “saved”?

 

[jonathan_hili]

No. Repentance must be sought. We have to confess our sins. If we confess our sins, God will be faithful to forgive them. Parallel with confession there must be true repentance, a true turning from sin.

It matters greatly. Continued, willful sin grieves the Holy Spirit. Continual, willful sin will result in the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from one’s life, a loss of faith, and the loss of salvation.

I completely agree!

But if you must seek repentance and confess to regain your salvation, how can you be saved by faith alone since repentance and confession are works, i.e. things we do?

 

[ltwin]

I completely agree!

But if you must seek repentance and confess to regain your salvation, how can you be saved by faith alone since repentance and confession are works, i.e. things we do?

We are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the agents that bring faith. Faith in Christ is the channel by which we receive grace.

Faith brings repentance. Someone who has faith will live a repentant life.

 

[jonathan_hili]

We are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Faith in Christ is the channel by which we receive grace. The Holy Spirit and the Word are the agents that bring about faith.

Faith brings about repentance. Someone who has faith will live a repentant life.

Granted - I took God’s grace and Christ’s salvific work as a given.

Hang on a sec: “someone who has faith will live a repentant life”. But doesn’t that just mean that if they sin, they will be moved to repent, and isn’t repentance a work, that is, something one does? I’m not understanding how repentance and confession are not things a person does (granted, through the Holy Spirit).

 

[ltwin]

Granted - I took God’s grace and Christ’s salvific work as a given.

Hang on a sec: “someone who has faith will live a repentant life”. But doesn’t that just mean that if they sin, they will be moved to repent, and isn’t repentance a work, that is, something one does? I’m not understanding how repentance and confession are not things a person does (granted, through the Holy Spirit).

You can consider them a “work,” but they are not saving works. There is no such thing as a saving work except for the work Christ performed on the cross. There is such a thing as saving faith, which produces all good works.

 

[jonathan_hili]

You can consider them a “work,” but they are not saving works. There is no such thing as a saving work except for the work Christ performed on the cross. There is such a thing as saving faith, which produces all good works.

But if repentance is a work, and we need to repent of our sins to be saved, then why aren’t they “saving works”, i.e. works that contribute to our salvation?

If we admit that faith can be “saving faith” and repentance is a work we need to do to continue in this faith, how is it not a “saving work”?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is that through Bible alone also? Had to throw it in there Itwin.

 

[ltwin]

Is that through Bible alone also? Had to throw it in there Itwin.

Haha.

On a serious note. Sola Scriptura as a principle is not an element of the way of salvation. Sola Scriptura refers to how the Church relates to the Scriptures.

 

[jonathan_hili]

Good point, Itwin.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Sola Scriptura as a principle is not an element of the way of salvation. Sola Scriptura refers to how the Church relates to the Scriptures.

True, so how do we know which Church is correctly relating to Scripture in interpretation? For sure we know there’s an issue in this realm in various areas of Christian faith.

 

[ltwin]

But if repentance is a work, and we need to repent of our sins to be saved, then why aren’t they “saving works”, i.e. works that contribute to our salvation?

If we admit that faith can be “saving faith” and repentance is a work we need to do to continue in this faith, how is it not a “saving work”?

Because this “work” is not something separate from faith. Faith is not some abstract concept that “needs” some tangible “work” to make it effective.“Faith is the reality of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). We do not have faith because we repent. Rather, we repent because we have faith.

 

[jonathan_hili]

Because this “work” is not something separate from faith. Faith is not some abstract concept that “needs” some tangible “work” to make it effective.“Faith is the reality of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). We do not have faith because we repent. Rather, we repent because we have faith.

I agree, we repent because we have faith - or are on our way to faith.

So, you agree with faith and works are necessary for salvation then, since “work” is one with “faith”?

 

[ltwin]

I agree, we repent because we have faith - or are on our way to faith.

So, you agree with faith and works are necessary for salvation then, since “work” is one with “faith”?

I believe a living faith (as opposed to the dead faith that James talks about) or a real/true faith is necessary to be saved. One who has such a faith will repent and pursue holiness.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I believe a living faith (as opposed to the dead faith that James talks about) or a real/true faith is necessary to be saved. One who has such a faith will repent and pursue holiness.

Sure, of course. But this living faith includes works, such as repentance and acts of holiness, right?