Can I know I'm saved?

[JamesCaruso]

Since I am not a trained theologian, I’ll point you to the following notes in the Lutheran Study Bible put out by Concordia Publishing House:

Note on Romans 6:1-14
We may be tempted to make grace an invitation to sin. Because God will forgive me, why not do what I want? This immature attitude misses this point: Christ unites Himself to us. In His death and resurrection, we receive forgiveness and life. He calls us to live in His life, not to turn back to a life dominated by sin. He enables us to live in the freedom of His grace.

Note on Romans 6:15-23
Although many people consider freedom to be the ultimate human right, no one is truly free spiritually. We were slaves to sin and bound to death. Knowing this, Jesus came to serve us by giving His life on the cross and rising for us. Freed from sin, we can now serve God. Only when we are “slaves” to God will we have freedom to be the people He created us to be.

On the first paragraph: He “enables” us to live in the freedom of his grace. He does not force us. If we want to continue to live in servitude to darkness, it is still our choice. Christ does not unite Himself to sin, and if we continue in serious sin, He separates Himself from us. He may call us, but that does not mean we must answer. To say so is to deny free will. It’s comforting to believe that we are forgiven automatically without repentance, but it is also comforting to believe that when we jump out of an airplane without a parachute we will float gracefully down to the ground without a scratch. Both comforting beliefs are false. The Apostle Paul was not sure of salvation as these passages reveal:

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, Philippians 2:12

26Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27No,** I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.** 1 Corinthians 9

On the second paragraph, how can we be both slaves to God, as it says, and continue to sin. We can’t. If we are not therefore slaves to God, then we do not have the freedom to be the people He created us to be. When we sin gravely, we remove ourselves from slavery to God, and reunite ourselves to slavery to sin.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Romans 6

This is to be read as "if you do not let sin reign in your mortal body, THEN you have counted yourself dead to sin but alive to God in Jesus Christ. It is not up to Jesus to count yourselves dead to sin, it’s up to you. There would be no admonition to reign in your mortal body if you were automatically dead to sin by Christ’s death on the cross. By twisting the words around, people shift the responsibility for salvation from their obedience to God (if you love me, you will keep my commandments), to God (You are saved and nothing more is required of you, but it would be nice/mature of you if you would stop those nasty sins, although it really doesn’t matter in terms of whether you achieve your eternal reward or not. What kind of double talk is that?) And will not the sheep be separated from the goats by virtue of what they did while on earth?

34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ Matthew 25

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ Matthew 25

I would take a long hard look at justified by faith alone. There are just far too many scriptures that refute this claim. The ancestors of today’s Protestants did not believe in justification by faith alone for 1,500 years. What changed? Did Christ’s Church live in error for 1,500 years, then suddenly realize they had it all wrong? Then, what else may also be wrong? How then do you know that anything is right? I just find it hard to swallow that the truth lay dormant for 1,500 years and then along came a Catholic priest named Martin Luther and clarified it all! Not only that, my own readings do not confirm the meanings that protesters of Catholicism find in the scriptures.

 

[VDMA]

Christ does not unite Himself to sin, and if we continue in serious sin, He separates Himself from us.

Oh course Christ unites himself with sin. That is the whole reason he became man, to take the sins of the world upon himself.

It’s comforting to believe that we are forgiven automatically without repentance,

I never said “without repentance”. If we are unrepentant and say our sins are no big deal, we have rejected our faith in Christ. If our sins are no big deal, then why do we need a savior?

When we sin gravely, we remove ourselves from slavery to God, and reunite ourselves to slavery to sin.

So are you saying that St. Paul was no longer a Christian because he said that he continues to sin even though he does not want to (Romans 7:19) or when he calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15)?

I will be a poor and miserable sinner until the day I die. But, at the same time, I am also a saint because I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Romans 6

This is to be read as "if you do not let sin reign in your mortal body, THEN you have counted yourself dead to sin but alive to God in Jesus Christ.

No, read it again. It is the exact opposite of what you just said. We are able to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies BECAUSE Christ has made us dead to sin. We are able to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies BECAUSE Christ has freed us from slavery to sin (Romans 6:6).

And will not the sheep be separated from the goats by virtue of what they did while on earth?

The sheep were not looking to their good works for their salvation. They didn’t even realize that they had done the good works.

We can be assured of our salvation because it does not depend on anything that we do, it has been completely won for us by Christ.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Oh course Christ unites himself with sin. That is the whole reason he became man, to take the sins of the world upon himself.
You clearly do not understand sin. Christ took on the penalty for our sins, but He Himself never sinned, nor does He make Himself a party to sin. He satisfied the justice of God that demanded a fitting sacrifice to make up for the sins of mankind, for anyone who would be sorry for their sins. He took the penalty of sin upon himself so that the gates of heaven could be reopened.

I never said “without repentance”. If we are unrepentant and say our sins are no big deal, we have rejected our faith in Christ. If our sins are no big deal, then why do we need a savior?

This is the one sentence of yours that I agree with. We must be sorry for our sins. However, further on in your writing you seem to be of the opinion that we can continue sinning now that we are under grace, which is not true. Sin, until repented of separates us from God again. Once we repent we are reinstated to His friendship. Our baptism into His death does not make us immune from the penalty of sin which in terms of grave sin is eternal damnation.

So are you saying that St. Paul was no longer a Christian because he said that he continues to sin even though he does not want to (Romans 7:19) or when he calls himself the chief of sinners (1 Timothy 1:15)?

By virtue of his fierce persecution of the Church, Paul felt himself the worst of all sinners. But Pauls teaches:

5Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols. 6For which things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of unbelief, 7In which you also walked some time, when you lived in them. 8But now put you also all away: anger, indignation, malice, blasphemy, filthy speech out of your mouth. 9Lie not one to another: stripping yourselves of the old man with his deeds, 10And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him. Collosians 3

This is not a call to pretend that you are a saint by virtue of Christ while you can sin all you want in the flesh and God will ignore it. You are not two people, only one, and that one person is either sinning and showing himself to be an enemy of God, or he is obeying God’s commandments and proving his love for God.

Jesus said, “If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15

I will be a poor and miserable sinner until the day I die. But, at the same time, I am also a saint because I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

No, read it again. It is the exact opposite of what you just said. We are able to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies BECAUSE Christ has made us dead to sin. We are able to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies BECAUSE Christ has freed us from slavery to sin (Romans 6:6).

Yes, we have been baptized into his death. But if we reject that Baptism, we choose to be alive to sin and not dead to sin, we reject our baptism into his death. Notice that immediately following Romans 6:6-11, it reads:

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body to obey its lusts. 13Neither yield your members instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but yield yourselves to God as alive from among the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God.

No such caution would be necessary if we were saints by virtue of Christ’s death on the cross, and not by anything we must do on our part. If Christians were dead to sin in the snese that you take it, then they could not let sin reign in their mortal bodies, but Paul clearly believes they can. You are only dead to sin if you so choose to be understanding that this is the cross that Christ wants you to carry in imitation of Him. He wants you to live a sinless life. If you do not, you will not be clothed in His righteousness on the last day; you will be naked and filthy with sin. If you do not take up your cross, living a sinless life to the best of your ability, repenting of sin if you fall, then you will not be counted worthy of Christ and you will not enter heaven.

We are not under the law but under grace, but grace is not forced on anyone, and you must accept His grace on an ongoing basis. If you reject by sin, do not look for a reward. God will not suffer fools who believe they can sin and enter heaven without repentance. But if you say again as above that you do repent, then I say, you have made my point, it is not only Christ’s death that makes you able to obtain your eternal reward, it is also your living a sinless life to the best of your ability, repenting each and every time you fall. HE opened the gates, but YOU must walk through them.

 

[JamesCaruso]

The sheep were not looking to their good works for their salvation. They didn’t even realize that they had done the good works.

They didn’t do them in their sleep. They either did them or they didn’t do them. IF they didn’t do them, then they didn’t enter heaven, regardless of their belief to the contrary.

We can be assured of our salvation because it does not depend on anything that we do, it has been completely won for us by Christ.

What Christ did be His dying for our sins was to open the gates of heaven. YOU still have to walk through them, and you will not be able to until you break from sin in your one self. You do not have two selves, one that sins and one that is sanctified. This schizophrenic view of life after baptism does not make any sense in light of the gospel. What you think those passages say are wishful thinking. Why would you think that God would have anything to do with a reprobate on the basis of what Christ did? What did Jesus mean when he said that if you do not take up your cross and follow him, you are not worthy of him? I say that no one who believes in Christ in the way that you have laid it out and continue to sin will be allowed to enter heaven. Those who think that Christ did it all for them are on the road to hell.

But if you admit that your part in the scheme of things is to try to live a saintly life, and to be sorry for your sins whenever you fall, then we are in agreement, and this is all just word nonsense. Without your sorrow and repentance for any new sins, you are not going to heaven. What Jesus did plus our sorrow and repentance for our sins is the twofold requirement for heaven. Don’t fool yourself that you don’t have to do anything, if you did, I can no longer tell what you are saying. It is simply not plain spoken. …

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi all, this is primarily addressed to our Protestant brothers and sisters.

Now, my ideas here with regards to your views on salvation might be wrong, so please let me know if I’ve misrepresented a Protestant perspective.

From my experience, there seem to be two general approaches to knowledge of salvation (regardless of the means of salvation), namely:

(i) Once saved, always saved - in this case a believer has eternal assurance of salvation, which cannot be lost, regardless of behaviour, apostasy, etc.

(ii) Salvation by faith alone - in this case a believer is saved by his faith (through the grace of God and Christ’s salvific work on the cross) and he knows he has saving faith by manifesting actions that accord with this faith.

It’s this second viewpoint that I’d like your opinions on. I’ve always found it troubling because, from those Protestants I’ve encountered, I get the impression that if someone commits a grave sin, such as adultery, the conclusion is that he never had saving faith after all. That is, knowing one is saved is dependent on works after the fact. My main gripe is that, really, nobody would ever know if he is saved until the point of death because a grave sin could be committed at any time.

That’s why I find the Catholic perspective more reassuring because we can hold a moral assurance of salvation and know that our faith is always saving faith when it is coupled with our actions in accordance to the will of God and His Church.

Any thoughts?

God bless.

Jonathan

Absolutely you can know you are saved…

first you must abandon the reality that Christ founded a Church,

next you must abandon any notion that the Protocanonicals did not exist for all time,

next you must go to CARM and believe everything they tell you in spite of knowing that it is not true…and when they tell you, that you are saved, you must believe it based on no authority, as the Bible they have is a translation, not original Scripture…

next surround yourself with people that accept this fallacy until you absolutely, positively believe that it is true contrary to reason:thumbsup:

 

[ffg]

As humility is a good, a virtue, if present, it’s impossible to know the outcome of that which is out of our control and may have a favorable outcome for us.

If humility is ignored or not present, concluding in the human mind a favorable outcome that is out of our control becomes possible, but might be opposite of the true result.

 

[stewstew03]

Absolutely you can know you are saved…

first you must abandon the reality that Christ founded a Church,

next you must abandon any notion that the Protocanonicals did not exist for all time,

next you must go to CARM and believe everything they tell you in spite of knowing that it is not true…and when they tell you, that you are saved, you must believe it based on no authority, as the Bible they have is a translation, not original Scripture…

next surround yourself with people that accept this fallacy until you absolutely, positively believe that it is true contrary to reason:thumbsup:

CC - you forgot… only read 1 John 5:13, and disregard all other scripture as not really all that important…

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:13[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

CC - you forgot… only read 1 John 5:13, and disregard all other scripture as not really all that important…

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:13[/BIBLEDRB]

A much mishandled verse. John is not setting up a paradigm wherein anyone who claims belief can know they are saved.

 

[Monergistic]

A much mishandled verse. John is not setting up a paradigm wherein anyone who claims belief can know they are saved.

Of course, he’s saying no one who believes in the name of the Son of God can know they have eternal life. That’s very clear.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Of course, he’s saying no one who believes in the name of the Son of God can know they have eternal life. That’s very clear.

No, Monergistic. What I am saying in this. John says he writes “these things” that the Christian may know he has eternal life. What are the “these things?” Everything that comes before 5:13. Does John only treat belief in the previous 5 chapters? Do they not include obedience to Christ’s commandments? Confessing him in the flesh? Fleeing from sin?

 

[ffg]

Interesting take away from mass today.

Knowing Christ and following Christ, two very different things.

When Jesus walked the earth, there were people who knew Him and did not follow Him.

Just as there is today.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Interesting take away from mass today.

Knowing Christ and following Christ, two very different things.

When Jesus walked the earth, there were people who knew Him and did not follow Him.

Just as there is today.

Yes. Though I think, as used in the New Testament, knowing and following Jesus can almost be used interchangably, given the intimacy of the Greek understanding of the term “know.”

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus said that only those who do the Father’s will, pick up their Cross and follow Him and endure to the end will be saved.

Just the thought of realizing I passed Jesus many times Who was hungry, naked, imprisoned, sick…puts my salvation in jeopardy. I think of the times I missed Him in my selfish.

I ask Him to have mercy on me, and help me by His grace to be merciful to others, and to help me recognize Him in my neighbor.

Trust in His mercy.

 

[ffg]

Yes. Though I think, as used in the New Testament, knowing and following Jesus can almost be used interchangably, given the intimacy of the Greek understanding of the term “know.”

Wholeheartedly disagree.

It’s not a definition / translation issue. Any confusion over terms is not understanding the teaching, nor my post.

It’s a life issue, either you are living in accordance (following) or you are not.

“To whom much is given, much is to be expected”.

If knowing was all we needed and following was just a given upon knowing, the above statement would be meaningless.

 

[Monergistic]

No, Monergistic. What I am saying in this. John says he writes “these things” that the Christian may know he has eternal life. What are the “these things?” Everything that comes before 5:13. Does John only treat belief in the previous 5 chapters? Do they not include obedience to Christ’s commandments? Confessing him in the flesh? Fleeing from sin?

So in other words, some people who believe in the name of Jesus Christ can know they have eternal life. Is that an acceptable takeaway?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

So in other words, some people who believe in the name of Jesus Christ can know they have eternal life. Is that an acceptable takeaway?

Yes, of course. The issue is more what that is based on.

 

[Monergistic]

Yes, of course. The issue is more what that is based on.

Ok, let’s try this question. Who is it that grants eternal life to these people? Who is it that saves them- and, presumably, causes them to know that they have eternal life? Who is this agent that can claim responsibility for all this?

 

[JamesCaruso]

Absolutely you can know you are saved…

first you must abandon the reality that Christ founded a Church,

next you must abandon any notion that the Protocanonicals did not exist for all time,

next you must go to CARM and believe everything they tell you in spite of knowing that it is not true…and when they tell you, that you are saved, you must believe it based on no authority, as the Bible they have is a translation, not original Scripture…

next surround yourself with people that accept this fallacy until you absolutely, positively believe that it is true contrary to reason:thumbsup:

You’re sure not making it easy! :doh2:

 

[JamesCaruso]

CC - you forgot… only read 1 John 5:13, and disregard all other scripture as not really all that important…

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 5:13[/BIBLEDRB]

Gee! Then the devil is saved, too.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Ok, let’s try this question. Who is it that grants eternal life to these people? Who is it that saves them- and, presumably, causes them to know that they have eternal life? Who is this agent that can claim responsibility for all this?

All three Persons of the Trinity. The Father in electing them to the Son, the Son in dying and rising and ascending for their justification and the Spirit in regenerating them and uniting them through faith to the Son.