Can I know I'm saved?

[JamesCaruso]

Of course, he’s saying no one who believes in the name of the Son of God can know they have eternal life. That’s very clear.

No, he’s saying, all things being equal, you can know that you have eternal life.

The things being equal are obeying God’s commandments, taking up your cross and following the Lord, staying free from serious sins of both commission and omission, heartfelt sorrow and repentance if you do fall (for Catholics, the Sacrament of Reconciliation), loving your neighbor, reception of Holy Communion (Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.John 6:53 KJV) (He might let you off the hook if you plead ignorance of such a sacrament, I’m not sure on the details of the Church’s teaching on this), and Baptism, of course. These were all in John’s mind when he said this, since it was common knowledge among Christians. Maybe the present day form of Reconciliation had not come about at that time, but I put in the modern day equivalent. The main thing is that you die in the state of sanctifying grace, that is, you have asked for and received forgiveness for all serious sins in your life. Then you can be sure with moral certainty that you have eternal salvation, which you will only know with absolute certainty when you have died and met the Lord.

 

[1toolbox]

Hi all, this is primarily addressed to our Protestant brothers and sisters.

Now, my ideas here with regards to your views on salvation might be wrong, so please let me know if I’ve misrepresented a Protestant perspective.

From my experience, there seem to be two general approaches to knowledge of salvation (regardless of the means of salvation), namely:

(i) Once saved, always saved - in this case a believer has eternal assurance of salvation, which cannot be lost, regardless of behaviour, apostasy, etc.

(ii) Salvation by faith alone - in this case a believer is saved by his faith (through the grace of God and Christ’s salvific work on the cross) and he knows he has saving faith by manifesting actions that accord with this faith.

It’s this second viewpoint that I’d like your opinions on. I’ve always found it troubling because, from those Protestants I’ve encountered, I get the impression that if someone commits a grave sin, such as adultery, the conclusion is that he never had saving faith after all. That is, knowing one is saved is dependent on works after the fact. My main gripe is that, really, nobody would ever know if he is saved until the point of death because a grave sin could be committed at any time.

That’s why I find the Catholic perspective more reassuring because we can hold a moral assurance of salvation and know that our faith is always saving faith when it is coupled with our actions in accordance to the will of God and His Church.

Any thoughts?

God bless.

Jonathan

hello this should help answer it A Muslim Student Challenges Ravi Zacharias

youtu.be/bl9ds3W7HQ0

 

[JamesCaruso]

Jesus said that only those who do the Father’s will, pick up their Cross and follow Him and endure to the end will be saved.

Just the thought of realizing I passed Jesus many times Who was hungry, naked, imprisoned, sick…puts my salvation in jeopardy. I think of the times I missed Him in my selfish.

I ask Him to have mercy on me, and help me by His grace to be merciful to others, and to help me recognize Him in my neighbor.

Trust in His mercy.

:thumbsup:I like that. It reminds me of Mother Teresa who referred to the poor and diseased as “Jesus in distressing disguise.” I tremble to think of how many times I have passed Jesus on my busy, self-important life as a middle class American. So much to do, so many projects, and meetings, and recreations, and celebrations, and obligations, and things that fill all the space from from morning to nightfall, from week to week, and year to year. I just don’t have time for Jesus. He’ll understand. Oh, yeah! He’ll understand. Or maybe I should say, “Will he ever understand!”

 

[Publisher]

I seem to recall a thread where you supported abortion rights… but perhaps I’m mistaken.

I’ve heard/read Catholics have a “mandate” to speak and bring up reproductive rights any chance they can. This thread is not about reproductive rights of women.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I’ve heard/read Catholics have a “mandate” to speak and bring up reproductive rights any chance they can. This thread is not about reproductive rights of women.

Like we’ve got talking points from the Vatican? Like don’t vote for JFK, he’ll be taking orders from the Pope.

 

[Publisher]

As humility is a good, a virtue, if present, it’s impossible to know the outcome of that which is out of our control and may have a favorable outcome for us.

If humility is ignored or not present, concluding in the human mind a favorable outcome that is out of our control becomes possible, but might be opposite of the true result.

That’s the whole point…it’s not in our control…I trust in the One in Whom the control rests…it is not because I trust in myself…or my understanding…it is in Him that I trust…there is no one better to trust in.:

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

No, he’s saying, all things being equal, you can know that you have eternal life.

The things being equal are obeying God’s commandments, taking up your cross and following the Lord, staying free from serious sins of both commission and omission, heartfelt sorrow and repentance if you do fall (for Catholics, the Sacrament of Reconciliation), loving your neighbor, reception of Holy Communion (Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.John 6:53 KJV) (He might let you off the hook if you plead ignorance of such a sacrament, I’m not sure on the details of the Church’s teaching on this), and Baptism, of course. These were all in John’s mind when he said this, since it was common knowledge among Christians. Maybe the present day form of Reconciliation had not come about at that time, but I put in the modern day equivalent. The main thing is that you die in the state of sanctifying grace, that is, you have asked for and received forgiveness for all serious sins in your life. Then you can be sure with moral certainty that you have eternal salvation, which you will only know with absolute certainty when you have died and met the Lord.

While I disagree with the specifics of the Catholic theology points, I think you’re basically right, James. Those who walk in sin and disobedience, despite any public profession of faith, have no right to claim knowledge of salvation. John’s explicit point is that doing “these things -” obedience, love, faithfulness, faith, repentance, avoidance of sin, etc., they are the ones who may know they have eternal life.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

I’ve heard/read Catholics have a “mandate” to speak and bring up reproductive rights any chance they can. This thread is not about reproductive rights of women.

“reproductive rights,” I think that gives us your opinion on it, Publisher.

 

[JamesCaruso]

While I disagree with the specifics of the Catholic theology points, I think you’re basically right, James. Those who walk in sin and disobedience, despite any public profession of faith, have no right to claim knowledge of salvation. John’s explicit point is that doing “these things -” obedience, love, faithfulness, faith, repentance, avoidance of sin, etc., they are the ones who may know they have eternal life.

Right on!

 

[Publisher]

“reproductive rights,” I think that gives us your opinion on it, Publisher.

Again, this is not a thread of reproductive rights…perhaps instead of seeking to make it so…you should begin one that deals with that subject.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve heard/read Catholics have a “mandate” to speak and bring up reproductive rights any chance they can. This thread is not about reproductive rights of women.

Friend,

You are absolutely, 100% correct, this thread is not about reproductive rights, it is not about murder…

on the other hand abortion is murder and reproductive rights as you call them are actually priveleges and these privileges are gifts no less than salvation…

Now slavation is a free gift and like all gifts including life, as you know, it can be destroyed by those of us that do not value that life…

murder is as you will agree taking that life that was a free gift to another and that person loses that gift because of someone else’s doings

abortion is murder in the same vain and the person that loses their free gift had not even the ability to speak prior to losing that gift…

now when it comes to salvation, that gift, as all gifts can be cherished, abused, glorified and in the context of this thread destroyed and lost contrary to the Protestant invention of the mind of man, fallible you will almost assuredly agree, that the gift of salvation unlike any other gift in this universe requires nothing of the giftee other than boasting that it is theirs forever and a day because they took a few words from a book, interpret them as they choose to, unlike any other person on this planet when the book was written and expect everyone else to believe that this gift, this very special gift, unlike any other gift is incorruptible because men reading a book that they invented, Protocanonicals, say so…

I am gonna go with naaaahhhhh

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Again, this is not a thread of reproductive rights…perhaps instead of seeking to make it so…you should begin one that deals with that subject.

Well, no…you’re right in that.

Then again, the topic is can I know I am saved. Those who support the right to snuff out the lives of the unborn most certainly cannot know they are saved. So maybe it’s tangentially related.

 

[Publisher]

Well, no…you’re right in that.

Then again, the topic is can I know I am saved. Those who support the right to snuff out the lives of the unborn most certainly cannot know they are saved. So maybe it’s tangentially related.

I don’t know anyone who “supports the right to snuff out the lives of the unborn”…I do know quite a few people who believe they are repsonsible and they alone for their bodies and do not wish any one to remove that freedom from them to determine for themselves the right to their bodies.

I’ve already understood that I am under a “delusion” because I know Whom it is I trust and the He and He alone makes all the difference on that Last Day…but what a sweet “delusion” it is to even “imagine” the intimacy of experiencing His Presence and the “delusion” of Hearing His Voice spoken in the deep places of the spirit. I’m ok with the “delusion”…It is He and He alone that will stand with me on that Last Day…“I know whom I have believed…and am persuaded that He is able…to keep what I’ve committed…against that Day.”

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t know anyone who “supports the right to snuff out the lives of the unborn”…I do know quite a few people who believe they are repsonsible and they alone for their bodies and do not wish any one to remove that freedom from them to determine for themselves the right to their bodies.

Now does that mean that since we believe in co-creation and that any woman with a person inside the body, that she alone, bearing the other person, but not totally responsible for that gift since it was co-creation, God, her husband and her consent that this woman is solely responsible for their bodies and they alone are soley free to do as they wish with the understanding that salvation is a free gift and that free gift is given to all and the person in the womb depends on the co-creators to cherish that gift as if it were their own…

Is this the kind of freedom you are talking about?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

I don’t know anyone who “supports the right to snuff out the lives of the unborn”…I do know quite a few people who believe they are repsonsible and they alone for their bodies and do not wish any one to remove that freedom from them to determine for themselves the right to their bodies.

I too believe people are responsible for their own bodies. Which is why I believe the murder of another human being’s body by his or her mother and the doctor (and those who enable it) is currently the most despicable atrocity before the face of a holy God on this planet, which He will in no wise forgive without repentance.

 

[CopticChristian]

I too believe people are responsible for their own bodies. Which is why I believe the murder of another human being’s body by his or her mother and the doctor (and those who enable it) is currently the most despicable atrocity before the face of a holy God on this planet, which He will in no wise forgive without repentance.

are you saying that you too believe that abortion is murder because of the free gift of life for the unborn is as precious as the free gift of salvation, that would cause reflection on consideration that a woman is free to do with her body as she sees fit, including consenting to go to some man, calling himself a doctor to remove that free gift and dishonor the free gift of life and possibly salvation if that woman had it…is this what you are saying here?

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

are you saying that you too believe that abortion is murder because of the free gift of life for the unborn is as precious as the free gift of salvation, that would cause reflection on consideration that a woman is free to do with her body as she sees fit, including consenting to go to some man, calling himself a doctor to remove that free gift and dishonor the free gift of life and possibly salvation if that woman had it…is this what you are saying here?

Absolutely. Well, in different words of course

 

[CopticChristian]

Absolutely. Well, in different words of course

Well there you have it then, since Publisher truly believes in the free gift of salvation he assuredly must see that murder is murder and no woman has the right to take this gift of life that was co-created and do with it as she alone sees fit…

 

[Publisher]

Now does that mean that since we believe in co-creation and that any woman with a person inside the body, that she alone, bearing the other person, but not totally responsible for that gift since it was co-creation, God, her husband and her consent that this woman is solely responsible for their bodies and they alone are soley free to do as they wish with the understanding that salvation is a free gift and that free gift is given to all and the person in the womb depends on the co-creators to cherish that gift as if it were their own…

Is this the kind of freedom you are talking about?

I don’t have the answers…so I weigh the options before me…restrict the right of a woman to be self determinate over her own body and life…or force her to become an incubator without any rights over her body.

I accept her right to make her own decisions and do not seek to impose my beliefs and will over her body. I won’t have to stand before anyone else but God and neither will she…since it is He and He alone she will have to stand before…she alone has the right to make her own decisions about the processes of her body. Thankfully, I do not have to define her life by my standards and beliefs…she has her own freedom to determine what does and does not occur within her own body…a God given right that she and she alone posesses…just as I have the right to determine how to decide my “temple” is to be treated…no one else.

You are good friend…you are quite adept at derailing a thread despite my best intentions.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

Well there you have it then, since Publisher truly believes in the free gift of salvation he assuredly must see that murder is murder and no woman has the right to take this gift of life that was co-created and do with it as she alone sees fit…

Amen.