Can I know I'm saved?

[CopticChristian]

I don’t have the answers…so I weigh the options before me…restrict the right of a woman to be self determinate over her own body and life…or force her to become an incubator without any rights over her body.

I accept her right to make her own decisions and do not seek to impose my beliefs and will over her body. I won’t have to stand before anyone else but God and neither will she…since it is He and He alone she will have to stand before…she alone has the right to make her own decisions about the processes of her body. Thankfully, I do not have to define her life by my standards and beliefs…she has her own freedom to determine what does and does not occur within her own body…a God given right that she and she alone posesses…just as I have the right to determine how to decide my “temple” is to be treated…no one else.

You are good friend…you are quite adept at derailing a thread despite my best intentions.

This is truly troubling…

black or white, dichotomous thinking

restrict the right of a woman to be self determinate over her own body and life
**…or **
**force her to become an incubator without any rights over her body. **

I am troubled when I see either or thinking…

We either restrict or we force. Ok. Are these the only ways of looking at a woman with a baby, however in the context of this thread…being saved…let us look at this…

do we restrict the right of someone to do with salvation as they will and perhaps lose it

or

do we force them to believe that they are once saved always saved and never lose it

in the first case of restriction looking at pregnancy and salvation, if we believe that salvation is a gift to be cherished and possibly be lost then we do what we can to protect it and in slavation restricting the rights of a woman causes the woman to cherish that life within the womb

in the second case force someone to become an incubator of a baby or incubator of salvation both free gifts then we impose an external negativity as it regards the baby and a hoped for possibility of good in the notion of salvation.

These thoughts are incongrous when applied to one or the other…

A baby is a life
A woman carries that baby
No woman is ever an incubator, even if they call her a surrogate
We, People denigrate the woman to the level of incubator by referring to the woman with the baby as anything other than a woman with a baby…

Eternal life is a free gift no different than your life, you must be born again
this new life is no different than the woman with the baby that new life may or may not be cherished, nurtured, welcome and that is why when understanding the nuance of that free gift having been born again, we are caused to think and believe of that new life, with the understanding of life in general…

life is precious
life can be nurtured
life can be healthy
life can be trampled

and when we think of life, it can be extinguised, by our own doing or by another’s doing and in that context …there are more alternatives than

restrict or force

 

[JamesCaruso]

Strange that abortion should be a capital crime, and yet in this country it is a guaranteed right.

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

I don’t have the answers…so I weigh the options before me…restrict the right of a woman to be self determinate over her own body and life…or force her to become an incubator without any rights over her body.

If a woman were being self-determinate, it would be her own life ended in the abortion. But that’s not (usually) whose life ends, now is it? What do we call it normally when someone determinatedly ends anothers life?

I accept her right to make her own decisions and do not seek to impose my beliefs and will over her body.

At least be consistent and apply this to every other circumstance in which an individal ends the life of another, because they “make decisions” with their body to inflict harm on anothers body.

I won’t have to stand before anyone else but God and neither will she…since it is He and He alone she will have to stand before

Not a comforting proposal.

…she alone has the right to make her own decisions about the processes of her body.

There you have it. Human life reduced to a process.

Thankfully, I do not have to define her life by my standards and beliefs

Am I my brothers keeper? Yes, you have the responsibility of defining all life by God’s standards.

you are quite adept at derailing a thread despite my best intentions.

Threads should always happily be derailed when the opportunity to defend the defenseless presents itself.

 

[Publisher]

This is truly troubling…

black or white, dichotomous thinking

I am troubled when I see either or thinking…

We either restrict or we force. Ok. Are these the only ways of looking at a woman with a baby, however in the context of this thread…being saved…let us look at this…

do we restrict the right of someone to do with salvation as they will and perhaps lose it

or

do we force them to believe that they are once saved always saved and never lose it

in the first case of restriction looking at pregnancy and salvation, if we believe that salvation is a gift to be cherished and possibly be lost then we do what we can to protect it and in slavation restricting the rights of a woman causes the woman to cherish that life within the womb

in the second case force someone to become an incubator of a baby or incubator of salvation both free gifts then we impose an external negativity as it regards the baby and a hoped for possibility of good in the notion of salvation.

These thoughts are incongrous when applied to one or the other…

A baby is a life
A woman carries that baby
No woman is ever an incubator, even if they call her a surrogate
We, People denigrate the woman to the level of incubator by referring to the woman with the baby as anything other than a woman with a baby…

Eternal life is a free gift no different than your life, you must be born again
this new life is no different than the woman with the baby that new life may or may not be cherished, nurtured, welcome and that is why when understanding the nuance of that free gift having been born again, we are caused to think and believe of that new life, with the understanding of life in general…

life is precious
life can be nurtured
life can be healthy
life can be trampled

and when we think of life, it can be extinguised, by our own doing or by another’s doing and in that context …there are more alternatives than

restrict or force

None of the above…it is a choice we are free to make…we are self determined people…I cannot force, restrict or make the decision for anyone’s salvation…nor the choice for them to determine the fate and care of their own bodies. It’s a matter of Free Will…I will not…I cannot remove their right of choice…I would be usurping their free will…a “forced” salvation is not salvation at all…a forced “self determination” is not self determination.

 

[CopticChristian]

None of the above…it is a choice we are free to make…we are self determined people…I cannot force, restrict or make the decision for anyone’s salvation…nor the choice for them to determine the fate and care of their own bodies. It’s a matter of Free Will…I will not…I cannot remove their right of choice…I would be usurping their free will…a “forced” salvation is not salvation at all…a forced “self determination” is not self determination.

No, not a forced salvation

Salvation that is then said to be restricted and incapable of being lost, without choice to lose, free will to destroy it usurped…restricted like shackles…forced self determination…

Once saved always saved whether you like it or not once you get saved and if you are saved you will stay saved…don’t even think you can lose it…

Free will, self determination?

 

[Publisher]

No, not a forced salvation

Salvation that is then said to be restricted and incapable of being lost, without choice to lose, free will to destroy it usurped…restricted like shackles…forced self determination…

Once saved always saved whether you like it or not once you get saved and if you are saved you will stay saved…don’t even think you can lose it…

Free will, self determination?

It’s difficult for me to wrap my head around the idea…while I AM a “hesitant universalist”…I do not believe in the Calvinist doctrine of the “security of the believer” as it has it’s roots in predestination…some are “predestined for salvation” hence nothing one can do will change one’s “destiny”…and some are “predestined for wrath”…and nothing one does can change that either. That to me is an evil concept…it would be a God gone mad in my eyes to devise such a “plan”.

As a “universalist”…even a “hesitant” one, One Day “all things will be laid at His feet”…One Day “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord”…One Day…I am no one’s judge…there is only One Judge who Sees more clearly and Knows with absolute Knowledge. He and He alone is able to make a Righteous Judgement.

My life is not lived for an “after life”…it is lived for a “here and now”…I am saved…becomeing saved…and will be saved. I only know my own experience of salvation…that is the essence of Quakerism…it is an “experiential faith”…I cannot deny what I have experience in my life…my Journey with Him has made all the difference in the world for me…I love the quote by Corrie ten Boom…“There is no pit so deep that He is not Deeper still”…“He lifted me out of the mirey clay”…“He is the Rock on which I stand”…that is my experience with Him…it is what I know about Him thru experience that assures me in Whom I trust. No one better to trust in…it is not myself I am confident in…it is He and He alone in whom I am confident…“I don’t know if this man is from God or not…all I know is once I was blind but now I can see”.

Because I have been freed from worrying about whether I am going to heaven or not…or hell or not…been in hell already…and He came down to where I was as I could not reach Him…so He came to me…of that I do know…I know Whom I believe in…He is my assurance…I don’t need any other.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s difficult for me to wrap my head around the idea…while I AM a “hesitant universalist”…I do not believe in the Calvinist doctrine of the “security of the believer” as it has it’s roots in predestination…some are “predestined for salvation” hence nothing one can do will change one’s “destiny”…and some are “predestined for wrath”…and nothing one does can change that either. That to me is an evil concept…it would be a God gone mad in my eyes to devise such a “plan”.

As a “universalist”…even a “hesitant” one, One Day “all things will be laid at His feet”…One Day “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord”…One Day…I am no one’s judge…there is only One Judge who Sees more clearly and Knows with absolute Knowledge. He and He alone is able to make a Righteous Judgement.

I only know my own experience of salvation…that is the essence of Quakerism…it is an “experiential faith”…I cannot deny what I have experience in my life…my Journey with Him has made all the difference in the world for me…I love the quote by Corrie ten Boom…“There is no pit so deep that He is not Deeper still”…“He lifted me out of the mirey clay”…“He is the Rock on which I stand”…that is my experience with Him…it is what I know about Him thru experience that assures me in Whom I trust. No one better to trust in…it is not myself I am confident in…it is He and He alone in whom I am confident…“I don’t know if this man is from God or not…all I know is once I was blind but now I can see”.

Because I have been freed from worrying about whether I am going to heaven or not…or hell or not…been in hell already…and He came down to where I was as I could not reach Him…so He came to me…of that I do know…I know Whom I believe in…He is my assurance…I don’t need any other.

Friend,

My life is not lived for an “after life”…it is lived for a “here and now”…I am saved…becomeing saved…and will be saved.

understanding free will, the ability to do and act all you have to do is change change the wording and you are Catholic…

**My life is not lived for an “after life”…it is lived for a “here and now”…I am saved…becomeing saved…and hope to be saved. **

So, then, the woman with a baby that is saved…if she aborts that baby is she still saved, exercising her free will over her own body?

 

[Stilldreamn]

So, then, the woman with a baby that is saved…if she aborts that baby is she still saved, exercising her free will over her own body?

I would say that sin separates us from God and breaks our relationship to Him. We are brought back into communion with Him through confession and absolution.

 

[CopticChristian]

I would say that sin separates us from God and breaks our relationship to Him. We are brought back into communion with Him through confession and absolution.

and this would be your response as a Lutheran…we wait for Publisher to respond…

 

[stewstew03]

Well, no…you’re right in that.

Then again, the topic is can I know I am saved. Those who support the right to snuff out the lives of the unborn most certainly cannot know they are saved. So maybe it’s tangentially related.

ExACTly…

 

[KathleenGee]

The whole point of Christianity is that Christ became Man to free us from sin and death and restore us to the Heavenly Father, as only the sacrificial offering of God Himself can atone for sin.

 

[stewstew03]

It’s difficult for me to wrap my head around the idea…while I AM a “hesitant universalist”…I do not believe in the Calvinist doctrine of the “security of the believer” as it has it’s roots in predestination…some are “predestined for salvation” hence nothing one can do will change one’s “destiny”…and some are “predestined for wrath”…and nothing one does can change that either. That to me is an evil concept…it would be a God gone mad in my eyes to devise such a “plan”.
…

We believe in predestination as well, just not “double predestination.” From the Catechism:

To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness. CCC 600

 

[stewstew03]

…
I do know quite a few people who believe they are responsible and they alone for their bodies and do not wish any one to remove that freedom from them to determine for themselves the right to their bodies.
…

I don’t want to wade too far into this, Publisher, but you might also want to consider the responsibility of the woman engaging in the procreative act. Over 99% of abortions in the US involve irresponsible women who had the free choice to abstain from sexual relations. Why is it that pro-abortionists only want to discuss “choice” after the woman has become pregnant??

(Source: www.numberofabortions.com)

 

[stewstew03]

Threads should always happily be derailed when the opportunity to defend the defenseless presents itself.

Great line…

 

[Gaelic_Bard]

I don’t want to wade too far into this, Publisher, but you might also want to consider the responsibility of the woman engaging in the procreative act. Over 99% of abortions in the US involve irresponsible women who had the free choice to abstain from sexual relations. Why is it that pro-abortionists only want to discuss “choice” after the woman has become pregnant??

(Source: www.numberofabortions.com)

Amen.

 

[Publisher]

understanding free will, the ability to do and act all you have to do is change change the wording and you are Catholic…

**My life is not lived for an “after life”…it is lived for a “here and now”…I am saved…becomeing saved…and hope to be saved. **

So, then, the woman with a baby that is saved…if she aborts that baby is she still saved, exercising her free will over her own body?

Probably not according to your beliefs. Mine would say that since I don’t know the reasons she chose to end her pregnancy…nor the circumstances that caused her pregnancy…I would have to rely on her testimony as to whether she walks in the Light.

Your “starting point” is different from mine. Since I do not believe each and every case of a woman ending her pregnancy is a “sin”…I would place her in God’s Hands…where she needs to be…my hands might drop her or cast her away because I cannot determine her motives nor her mental state…or spiritual state for that matter. But in God’s Hands, that is the best place to be for He Sees with a sure and perfect knowledge…I do not.

 

[Publisher]

I don’t want to wade too far into this, Publisher, but you might also want to consider the responsibility of the woman engaging in the procreative act. Over 99% of abortions in the US involve irresponsible women who had the free choice to abstain from sexual relations. Why is it that pro-abortionists only want to discuss “choice” after the woman has become pregnant??

(Source: www.numberofabortions.com)

I don’t believe that “choice” is only discussed AFTER the pregnancy…her “choice” and her partner’s “choice” certainly is not ignored…nor are any of us privy to the circumstances that might cause her to feel it is best to terminate her pregnancy. What ever led her to the point that she became pregnant is between her and God as well as the choice to end the pregnancy.

If she “sinned” and became pregnant…all I can do is now support and hold her in the Light and still care and treat her with respect and dignity. If she choses to end her pregnancy…for whatever reason…I still must care and support her and hold her in the Light and treat her with respect and dignity…I must continue to be a “forgiven image of His Grace” and remind her that “each morning the mercy of God becomes new” and is not withheld to any who come to Him for that mercy.

 

[CopticChristian]

Probably not according to your beliefs. Mine would say that since I don’t know the reasons she chose to end her pregnancy…nor the circumstances that caused her pregnancy…I would have to rely on her testimony as to whether she walks in the Light.

Your “starting point” is different from mine. Since I do not believe each and every case of a woman ending her pregnancy is a “sin”…I would place her in God’s Hands…where she needs to be…my hands might drop her or cast her away because I cannot determine her motives nor her mental state…or spiritual state for that matter. But in God’s Hands, that is the best place to be for He Sees with a sure and perfect knowledge…I do not.

Friend,

Then what you are saying is that the act of abortion/murder and the consequences of that act are determined by the circumstances and the reasons for the act.

You believe that a personal testimony validates walking or not walking in the light.

Motives and mental state in your thinking then determines what the act is, ie, sin or not sin.

Ok, then since you also support sames sex marriage and I understand that Quakers accept same sex marriage…

Do homosexuals engaging in sodomy in a same sex marriage walk in the light if this is the only act upon which we examine the possibility of them being saved or are homosexuals in a same sex marriage sodomizing each other have the possibility of being saved while united and engaging in these act?

 

[stewstew03]

I don’t believe that “choice” is only discussed AFTER the pregnancy…her “choice” and her partner’s “choice” certainly is not ignored…nor are any of us privy to the circumstances that might cause her to feel it is best to terminate her pregnancy. What ever led her to the point that she became pregnant is between her and God as well as the choice to end the pregnancy.

If she “sinned” and became pregnant…all I can do is now support and hold her in the Light and still care and treat her with respect and dignity. If she choses to end her pregnancy…for whatever reason…I still must care and support her and hold her in the Light and treat her with respect and dignity…I must continue to be a “forgiven image of His Grace” and remind her that “each morning the mercy of God becomes new” and is not withheld to any who come to Him for that mercy.

You could say this about any sin – say, for example, white supremacists who lynch non-whites – do you feel the same under those circumstances? Or are you saying some sins can be forgiven, while others can’t – or some sinners should be treated with dignity/respect, while others shouldn’t be…?

 

[JamesCaruso]

I cannot help wondering how those who support a woman’s right to terminate her pregnancy, saying it is between her and God, is there not the slightest doubt in their minds that the embryo being terminated is a human being? Is there some test that tells a person with absolute certainty that an embryo is not a human life, and if not, how can they even consider abortion to be a reasonable action?

If there is a one percent chance in one’s mind, is that too trivial to change one’s mind? If you thought every time you drank a glass of water from your tap there was a 1% chance it contained an undetectable but fatal poison, would you still drink from that tap? If there was a 0.1% chance, a 1 in 1,000 chance, would you still drink from that tap? Couple that with the fact that millions of intelligent people firmly believe that an embryo is a human being from the moment of conception. This fact alone should make one question the validity of their contrary belief. I’m sure that if millions of intelligent people thought there was an undetectable but fatal poison in the city’s water supply, reasonable people would refrain from drinking the water, at least, until this fact could be confirmed or disproved.

The abortion issue is no simple issue; it is literally a matter of life or death.

Sorry, I just realized this thread is on salvation, not a women’s right to end the life of her unborn baby.