Can I know I'm saved?

[Publisher]

Friend,

Then what you are saying is that the act of abortion/murder and the consequences of that act are determined by the circumstances and the reasons for the act.

You believe that a personal testimony validates walking or not walking in the light.

Motives and mental state in your thinking then determines what the act is, ie, sin or not sin.

Ok, then since you also support sames sex marriage and I understand that Quakers accept same sex marriage…

Do homosexuals engaging in sodomy in a same sex marriage walk in the light if this is the only act upon which we examine the possibility of them being saved or are homosexuals in a same sex marriage sodomizing each other have the possibility of being saved while united and engaging in these act?

I don’t know if each and every person who chooses to enter into civil marriage…whether same sex or not…walks in the Light. Those same sex couples who are members of the Meeting I attend certainly by their lives and actions walk in the Light as He is in the light. Their lives are exemplary…their words are healing…their touch gentle…their kindness Christlike…their testimony of the Light Within compliments and affirms my own.

You and I read scripture quite differently. Our understanding of those passages which appear to condemn same sex relationships when removed from their historical and cultural context is quite different.

Scripture does not address same sex realtionships in any way…except for condeming violent rape and sexual assault…or religous pagan prostitituion.

“Sodomy” is not a specifically homosexual event…heteerosexuals also engage in sexual acts which could be defined as “sodomy” at least according to popular conservative religious understanding.

Married same sex couples cannot be painted with a broad brush as “normative” any more than opposite sex couples can be painted with a broad brush.

 

[Publisher]

You could say this about any sin – say, for example, white supremacists who lynch non-whites – do you feel the same under those circumstances? Or are you saying some sins can be forgiven, while others can’t – or some sinners should be treated with dignity/respect, while others shouldn’t be…?

All people should be treated with dignity and respect…“Where are those that condemn you? Neither do I condemn you…go and sin no more”…the words “neither do I condemn you” seem to be coupled with “Let him that is without sin…”

The admonission to “go and sin no more” was directed at her…she would have to decide what constituted “sin” since we are not given any indication where the man was when they were “caught in the very act”…the “cast away” was the one brought for condemnation…not the one who was one of them…but the outcast…and Jesus said…“neither do I condemn you”…no words of admonition of repentance or condemnation…but words of love and healing…

While the “carnal man” rebels at the thought of offering love and compassion to those who commit such atrocities as lynching…the spiritual man knows that God offers not what we deserve…but what we need.

 

[CopticChristian]

Publisher:
Friend,

I do not read Scripture alone…

You and I read scripture quite differently. Our understanding of those passages which appear to condemn same sex relationships when removed from their historical and cultural context is quite different.

I do not believe that Social issues have anything to do with anything. The Social Construct argument that Homosexuals use to support some sort of understanding of their behavior is irrelevant. Things today are not that different than yesterday. Picking our nose today was done yesterday.

“Sodomy” is not a specifically homosexual event…heteerosexuals also engage in sexual acts which could be defined as “sodomy” at least according to popular conservative religious understanding.

Married same sex couples cannot be painted with a broad brush as “normative” any more than opposite sex couples can be painted with a broad brush.

There are those in the past, in the Church, that read and studied Scripture as well if not better than most of us and came up with these conclusions…

Tertullian, the great apologist of the Church in the second century, writes: “All other frenzies of lusts which exceed the laws of nature and are impious toward both bodies and the sexes we banish … from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities.” (Tertullian, De pudicitia, IV, in J. McNeil, op. cit., p. 89)

Saint Basil of Caesarea, the fourth century Church Father who wrote the principal rule of the monks of the East, establishes this: “The cleric or monk who molests youths or boys or is caught kissing or committing some turpitude, let him be whipped in public, deprived of his crown [tonsure] and, after having his head shaved, let his face be covered with spittle; and [let him be] bound in iron chains, condemned to six months in prison, reduced to eating rye bread once a day in the evening three times per week. After these six months living in a separate cell under the custody of a wise elder with great spiritual experience, let him be subjected to prayers, vigils and manual work, always under the guard of two spiritual brothers, without being allowed to have any relationship … with young people.” (St. Basil of Caesarea, in St. Peter Damien, Liber Gomorrhianus, op. cit. cols. 174f.)

Saint John Chrysostom denounces homosexual acts as being contrary to nature. Commenting on the Epistle to the Romans (1: 26-27), he says that the pleasures of sodomy are an unpardonable offense to nature and are doubly destructive, since they threaten the species by deviating the sexual organs away from their primary procreative end and they sow disharmony between men and women, who no longer are inclined by physical desire to live together in peace.

“All passions are dishonorable, for the soul is even more prejudiced and degraded by sin than is the body by disease; but the worst of all passions is lust between men…. The sins against nature are more difficult and less rewarding, since true pleasure is only the one according to nature. But when God abandons a man, everything is turned upside down! Therefore, not only are their passions [of the homosexuals] satanic, but their lives are diabolic…… So I say to you that these are even worse than murderers, and that it would be better to die than to live in such dishonor. A murderer only separates the soul from the body, whereas these destroy the soul inside the body…… There is nothing, absolutely nothing more mad or damaging than this perversity.” (St. John Chrysostom, In Epistulam ad Romanos IV, in J. McNeill, op. cit., pp. 89-90).

and so what you say here…

I don’t know if each and every person who chooses to enter into civil marriage…whether same sex or not…walks in the Light. Those same sex couples who are members of the Meeting I attend certainly by their lives and actions walk in the Light as He is in the light. Their lives are exemplary…their words are healing…their touch gentle…their kindness Christlike…their testimony of the Light Within compliments and affirms my own.

would be viewed as not walking in the light based on what those that came before us tell us…we are a unique sort of Creature in that we, as Alfred Korzybski says, Bind Time, in other words we learn from the past and carry wisdom from the past to the present…

Scripture does not address same sex realtionships in any way…except for condeming violent rape and sexual assault…or religous pagan prostitituion.

Scripture does not address Scripture alone as the sole rule of Faith either, hard as those that try to prove the unprovable, nor does it address the autonomy of Quakers as the Scripture say that the Church is…

The mystery hidden for all ages
The pillar and foundation of truth
The mystery by which the manifold wisdom of God is known
Through which Gentiles become fellow heirs
Something Jesus would build

and no where does it teach we read it and abstract a belief in free will to allow murder, anything other than Man and Woman He created them and to go forth and multiply…

 

[ffg]

That’s the whole point…it’s not in our control…I trust in the One in Whom the control rests…it is not because I trust in myself…or my understanding…it is in Him that I trust…there is no one better to trust in.:

That’s good and I agree it is important to trust Him.

But let’s not fool ourselves either, stating “I trust Him” carries with it some weight in learning and knowing what “He” teaches and following by doing what He instructs.

Trusting He’ll take care of us, but we not doing our part in ‘following’ may lead us down a path away from Truth.

And in the case of this thread, away from salvation.

 

[peace2u2]

jonathan_hili:
Well, according to 1 Timothy 2:6, Jesus redeemed all of mankind, so yes that would include myself. But I also struggle just as St. Paul did.

Romans 7:15
“What I do, I do not understand. For I do not do what I want, but I do what I hate”

One’s final salvation depends on the state of our soul at death. So if I died right now, there is a very good chance (80%Yes, 20%No) that I would be saved, but I of course would have to be purified of some sins still on my soul through purgatory.

Praise God for His infinite compassion, mercy and forgiveness.

 

[stewstew03]

All people should be treated with dignity and respect…“Where are those that condemn you? Neither do I condemn you…go and sin no more”…the words “neither do I condemn you” seem to be coupled with “Let him that is without sin…”

The admonission to “go and sin no more” was directed at her…she would have to decide what constituted “sin” since we are not given any indication where the man was when they were “caught in the very act”…the “cast away” was the one brought for condemnation…not the one who was one of them…but the outcast…and Jesus said…“neither do I condemn you”…no words of admonition of repentance or condemnation…but words of love and healing…

While the “carnal man” rebels at the thought of offering love and compassion to those who commit such atrocities as lynching…the spiritual man knows that God offers not what we deserve…but what we need.

So your advice to Quakers in the 18th century would have been: Love the slaveholder, don’t condemn them.

 

[Publisher]

So your advice to Quakers in the 18th century would have been: Love the slaveholder, don’t condemn them.

Love the slaveholder…definitely. Condemn the slavery…definitely…condemn the slaveholder…no…they too bear the Light Within.

 

[JamesCaruso]

All people should be treated with dignity and respect…“Where are those that condemn you? Neither do I condemn you…go and sin no more”…the words “neither do I condemn you” seem to be coupled with “Let him that is without sin…”

The admonission to “go and sin no more” was directed at her…she would have to decide what constituted “sin” since we are not given any indication where the man was when they were “caught in the very act”…the “cast away” was the one brought for condemnation…not the one who was one of them…but the outcast…and Jesus said…“neither do I condemn you”…no words of admonition of repentance or condemnation…but words of love and healing…

While the “carnal man” rebels at the thought of offering love and compassion to those who commit such atrocities as lynching…the spiritual man knows that God offers not what we deserve…but what we need.

Sometimes. Yes, sometimes, I agree. Jesus was not so loving and compassionate with the moneylenders. Maybe, a different approach for a different sinner. Maybe, as the Spirit leads. Maybe, “one size fits all” does not apply. There are certainly more examples of love and compassion than of cutting criticism. Oh, you brood of vipers! But to the woman at the well, warmth and kindness to someone He should not have condescended to speak to in the public mind. I find Jesus complex explainable to me only in the sure guiding hand of the Holy Spirit. I hope I am making sense. I am always in search of the real face of Jesus, even though He’s right there for us in the gospels. I hope I am not alone.

 

[CopticChristian]

Love the slaveholder…definitely. Condemn the slavery…definitely…condemn the slaveholder…no…they too bear the Light Within.

Here is the problem I have with your paradigm…

You judge that someone is walking in the light by what you observe and see

You do not judge them wrong in what you observe and see only whether they walk in the light…

Then the only thing you judge is if someone has the appearance of walking in the light regardless of what they do…

 

[Publisher]

Here is the problem I have with your paradigm…

You judge that someone is walking in the light by what you observe and see

You do not judge them wrong in what you observe and see only whether they walk in the light…

Then the only thing you judge is if someone has the appearance of walking in the light regardless of what they do…

It’s not my “paradigm” friend…it’s your narrow understanding of my “paradigm”.

While I would have a dificult time with a slaveholder…I would continue to be respectful and caring…knowing that they too bear a measure of the Light Within and while they may “fail” my understanding of “walking in the Light” on the subject of slavery…they still are loved by God…and they still have something to teach me as they too share the Light WIthin…and God in His mercy, love and forebearance calls them still to HIm. My condemning them would not serve as a witness to the Light I claim they too bear…but by being “Christ” to them. loving them, caring for them, speaking with gentleness and kindness and pointing them to the Light…especially witness that the Light Within their slaves share that same dignity he possesses.

I do not see into their heart…nor do I know their struggles…who knows…perhaps they are on the verge of freeing their slaves and accepting them as brothers…and my continued patience and care for them is what they are “seeking” to witness from one who seeks to also “walk in the Light”.

I would place them in the Hands of One who knows them with a sure and certain knowledge…and hold them in the Light and seek the Light on how to be a better witness to them…we share the same Light.

 

[Publisher]

Sometimes. Yes, sometimes, I agree. Jesus was not so loving and compassionate with the moneylenders. Maybe, a different approach for a different sinner. Maybe, as the Spirit leads. Maybe, “one size fits all” does not apply. There are certainly more examples of love and compassion than of cutting criticism. Oh, you brood of vipers! But to the woman at the well, warmth and kindness to someone He should not have condescended to speak to in the public mind. I find Jesus complex explainable to me only in the sure guiding hand of the Holy Spirit. I hope I am making sense. I am always in search of the real face of Jesus, even though He’s right there for us in the gospels. I hope I am not alone.

I’m not Jesus…so I must struggle to understand the guiding of the Spirit in such matters…and I must too search for the “real face of Jesus”…and while I may find a glimps of it in the gospels…I know those around me bear His image…so I seek to see the face of Jesus in them…for me…that makes all the difference…but…that’s just me.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s not my “paradigm” friend…it’s your narrow understanding of my “paradigm”.

While I would have a dificult time with a slaveholder…I would continue to be respectful and caring…knowing that they too bear a measure of the Light Within and while they may “fail” my understanding of “walking in the Light” on the subject of slavery…they still are loved by God…and they still have something to teach me as they too share the Light WIthin…and God in His mercy, love and forebearance calls them still to HIm. My condemning them would not serve as a witness to the Light I claim they too bear…but by being “Christ” to them. loving them, caring for them, speaking with gentleness and kindness and pointing them to the Light…especially witness that the Light Within their slaves share that same dignity he possesses.

I do not see into their heart…nor do I know their struggles…who knows…perhaps they are on the verge of freeing their slaves and accepting them as brothers…and my continued patience and care for them is what they are “seeking” to witness from one who seeks to also “walk in the Light”.

I would place them in the Hands of One who knows them with a sure and certain knowledge…and hold them in the Light and seek the Light on how to be a better witness to them…we share the same Light.

and if we watied for the slave owners to act as if they had the light, then there would have been no civil war and no emancapation proclamation…

Do those in the KKK walk in the light…

 

[Publisher]

and if we watied for the slave owners to act as if they had the light, then there would have been no civil war and no emancapation proclamation…

Do those in the KKK walk in the light…

You misrepresent my beliefs again friend…The KKK members have “that of God” within them…they share in the Light Within…whether they walk in the Light or not is another matter.

 

[Publisher]

and if we watied for the slave owners to act as if they had the light, then there would have been no civil war and no emancapation proclamation…

Do those in the KKK walk in the light…

Those who believed the Light was leading them gave up their slaves early in the Society of Friends Many Christians held slaves for quite some time. It was sad that the United States government had to step in and declare slavery illegal…it would have been wonderful if Christians would have “minded the Light” and gave up their slaves willingly…but alas…few did…it took an act of civil law to prevent slavery from continuing…as it took an act of law to seek to prevent discrimination…and an act of law to allow women their reproductive rights…and I think it will take an act of civil law to allow marriage equality…Christians have fought ever social change for the last 2000 years in one way or another…but Truth has prevailed just the same.

Just because the Light Speaks is no guarantee we Listen…but God is faithful and eventually His will is established. Humans are such stubborn creatures…it’s a good thing He is Patient with His beloved children.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I’m not Jesus…so I must struggle to understand the guiding of the Spirit in such matters…and I must too search for the “real face of Jesus”…and while I may find a glimps of it in the gospels…I know those around me bear His image…so I seek to see the face of Jesus in them…for me…that makes all the difference…but…that’s just me.

It is difficult to see Jesus in those around us, much easier to see their faults… but you’re right, I just haven’t come to appreciate the fact fully, although I believe it, just don’t know how the saints get to that point… Maybe just believing it is enough?

 

[JamesCaruso]

and if we watied for the slave owners to act as if they had the light, then there would have been no civil war and no emancapation proclamation…

Do those in the KKK walk in the light…

There are worse things than slavery, and killing each other over this issue is one of them. Every other nation solved the slavery problem without bloodshed.

 

[CopticChristian]

There are worse things than slavery, and killing each other over this issue is one of them. Every other nation solved the slavery problem without bloodshed.

Then according to Publisher the light was shining brighter elsewhere.

 

[Publisher]

It is difficult to see Jesus in those around us, much easier to see their faults… but you’re right, I just haven’t come to appreciate the fact fully, although I believe it, just don’t know how the saints get to that point… Maybe just believing it is enough?

I don’t think believing is enough…sometimes we must act as if we believed…in time…although is is a difficult struggle…His face becomes more clear in the “unlovely”…love isn’t something we always feel…love is something we do.

 

[Publisher]

There are worse things than slavery, and killing each other over this issue is one of them. Every other nation solved the slavery problem without bloodshed.

True words friend.

 

[Publisher]

Then according to Publisher the light was shining brighter elsewhere.

The Light shines best and brightest in those who seek to “walk in the Light”, despite our own failures…“Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief.”…it is the doubt and uncertainty that is most in need of grace…God doesn’t give us what we deserve…He gives us what we need…and we need His grace.