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excaliber
Guest
Jehovah’s witnesses are one of the few religions that say Jesus was not God but The chief angel. Can this be disproved using the only thing they trust which is the bible?
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Bestil_Andno
Guest
Hi excaliber,
I don’t think the claim should be accepted unless it can be disproved…but the other way around. Why should we believe that claim to be true?
The first thing that comes to my mind is this: If we only trust the Bible…where does it say that Jesus was the chief angel in the Bible?
Second, I thought that they taught the Jesus was really Michael the Archangel in Heaven, then He was Jesus while on Earth, and then He was Michael the Archangel again after returning to Heaven. Where does the Bible say that? (I’m not totally sure that is still the teaching, though.)
I think that there are only 5 verses that refer to St. Michael in the Bible and none of them say that he is really Jesus. (Daniel 10:13, Daniel 10:21, Daniel 12:1, Jude 9, Rev. 12:7).
Here is a verse that I think does prove that Jesus is God.
Hebrews 1:6: “But when he (God) again brings his First-born (Jesus) into the inhabited earth, he says: ‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’”
That is from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, copyright 1961, revised in 1970. I have a copy.
About the verse…since when does Jehovah tell angels (created beings) to WORSHIP another chief angel (created being)? That would be Jehovah telling angels to commit idolatry. Would he do that?
No. So his son must not be a created being (angel) after all.
BTW, versions of the NWT that have been revised since 1970 no longer use the word “worship” in that verse. It has now been changed to “obeisance”.
I wonder why?
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excaliber
Guest
I checked Hebrews 1:6
Why dose the Douay-Rheims Bible say adore him instead of worship?
Why dose the Douay-Rheims Bible say adore him instead of worship?
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Duane1966
Guest
If you listen to today’s podcast from Catholic Answers live with Tim Staples, I believe he answered something exactly like this question at the beginning of the show. I caught the very end of his comments. He was talking about a Jewish scholar who points out some of the times in the NT where Jesus is basically telling the Jews that HE is God.
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josie_L
Guest
Adore is a synonym for worship (think of adoration).
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ajcstr
Guest
Look at Jude 1:9
Yet the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!”
When Jesus was in the desert, he rebuked the devil several times so he can’t be Michael.
Also Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; this day I have begotten you”? Or again: “I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me”?
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ajcstr
Guest
Remember, the Douay was a translation from the Latin Vulgate, not Greek.
Origin of “adore” - Late Middle English: via Old French from Latin adorare ‘to worship’
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ajcstr
Guest
Proving Jesus is God from the NWT is impossible because they changed all the words that would imply he was divine. In any other translation, there are many references to Jesus divinity as there are many references to his human nature and his personality distinct from God. I would say its a difficult task because you will just be slinging verses back and forth.
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ajcstr
Guest
Whenever I have this discussion with them, they want to see a verse where Jesus says “I am GOD, worship me!” which of course isn’t there. It’s implied many times but they reject all the ones I tried. The closest is “Before Abraham was, I AM” but the NWT says “I have been”
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susanlo
Guest
This has a lot of references.
carm.org/bible-verses-show-jesus-divine
carm.org/bible-verses-show-jesus-divine
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Bestil_Andno
Guest
Like josie said. I think worship is a synonym for adore…but I don’t read the Douay much so I’m not very familiar with it or know much about it.
But I thought you wanted to see a disproof of Jesus’ being an angel? The verse in Hebrews shows Jehovah saying angels should worship the Son. Angels cannot worship other angels and Jehovah cannot tell them to commit idolatry.
So Jesus isn’t an angel using the NWT, right? (At least until 1970.)
I think the real question is: where does the Bible say that Jesus is an angel?
I know that 1 Thess. 4:16 says that 'the Lord will descend from heaven with…and archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet…"
If the Lord comes with an archangel’s voice…then he must be an archangel, perhaps?
But If he is coming with God’s trumpet…then he must be God as well?
No. This verse doesn’t say Jesus is an archangel. It says that He will descend announced with angels’ voices and God’s trumpet. He will be announced upon His return. And this makes sense because other verses tell us that He will come…:
with all the angels with Him (Matt. 25:31),
with His powerful angels (Matt. 16:27)
with angels (John 1:51)
So when He returns…it will not be in secret. He will come with an army of angels, announcements, and trumpeting.
None of that means that Jesus is an angel Himself.
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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Just another example of who people twist Scripture.
When the soldiers went to arrest Jesus, He identified himself by saying I AM
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Tomdstone
Guest
What is puzzling to many people is that Jesus said:
The Father is greater than I.
Jesus also said that only the Father knows the day or the hour. But God is omniscient. If the Holy Spirit is God, and if the Son is God, why would not the Son and why would not the Holy Spirit know the day or the hour?
The Father is greater than I.
Jesus also said that only the Father knows the day or the hour. But God is omniscient. If the Holy Spirit is God, and if the Son is God, why would not the Son and why would not the Holy Spirit know the day or the hour?
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McCartney
Guest
“Before Abraham was I AM”.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
The Greek text which I don’t have in front of me right now and I can’t remember anyway when Thomas says to Jesus “my Lord and my God” says in Greek “the Lord and the God of me”. I mean that’s pretty straightforward.
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susanlo
Guest
"Is there subordination in the Trinity?
There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity regarding order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 15:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son, but this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. The Son is equal to the Father in His divinity but inferior in His humanity. A wife is to be subject to her husband, but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me,” (John 6:38). Of course Jesus already is King, but the analogy shows that because someone is sent, it doesn’t mean they are different from the one who sent him."
carm.org/what-trinity
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LittleFlower378
Guest
John’s Gospel throughout the entire Gospel point the most strongly to Jesus as God. Just one example. Right from the start : “In the beggining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word WAS God.” Was God and IS God, Jesus is the word and He is God.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
That wouldn’t work because of Jehovah’s Witnesses only appeal to a faulty translation the New World Translation. Although I would point out to Jehovah’s Witness that their own organization at one point said there was nothing wrong with worshiping Jesus. Now they say you shouldn’t. Or that Charles Taze Russell’s grave has a cross on it. Even though they now say that Jesus was crucified on an upright torture stake. I think the biggest flaw in Jehovah’s Witness theology is the fact that it is extremely inconsistent
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Lily_Bernans
Guest
What about the beginning of the Gospel of John: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
Seems to me to point toward Christ as God and the Holy Trinity.
All these questions are answered in Father Michael Gaitley’s book The One Thing is Three, which is very readable and not at all scholarly. It presents complex theological truths in an easy-to-understand manner.
Seems to me to point toward Christ as God and the Holy Trinity.
All these questions are answered in Father Michael Gaitley’s book The One Thing is Three, which is very readable and not at all scholarly. It presents complex theological truths in an easy-to-understand manner.
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adamhovey1988
Guest
NWT changes that to “a god.”
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