Can IVF be moral?

[fish90]

I know that the Church is against IVF because those embryos live in a frozen “hell.” Can IVF be moral if it only plans to implant one or two embryos and avoids wasting these embryos? If not, what fertility treatments are moral for couples who wish to get pregnant?

 

[Corki]

The problem of frozen embryos is a horrible effect of IVF but it isn’t the **reason **for the Church teaching against it. See the CCC:

2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."167

2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."168 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union . . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."169

Some of the moral treatments involve fertility drugs, treatment to improve sperm motility, and NFP.

 

[Newbie2]

I know that the Church is against IVF because those embryos live in a frozen “hell.” Can IVF be moral if it only plans to implant one or two embryos and avoids wasting these embryos? If not, what fertility treatments are moral for couples who wish to get pregnant?

Good question.

Acutally, that isn’t the major reason that IVF is prohibited. IVF removes intercourse and the intimacy bound to it from the act of procreation. So, the number of embryos really isn’t relevant, except as you noted that they usually end up in a frozen “limbo”.

Pretty much any treatments that do not interfere with a natural act of intercourse are permitted i.e. hormonal treatments, surgery to correct anatomical irregularities, etc.

 

[lizaanne]

Some of the moral treatments involve fertility drugs, treatment to improve sperm motility, and NFP.

As well as knowing when to accept God’s will — which may very well mean not having your own biological children.

~Liza

 

[lizaanne]

So, the number of embryos really isn’t relevant, except as you noted that they usually end up in a frozen “limbo”.

PLEASE tell me you are just not being complete in your answer!

For every IVF cycle, one or more embryos have the VERY high probability of being destroyed, either because they could not be transferred to the womb, or because they do not survive the transplant. The number is extremely relevant - every single one of them is a human life! Just being frozen is not the only fate they may have.

~Liza

 

[Newbie2]

PLEASE tell me you are just not being complete in your answer!

For every IVF cycle, one or more embryos have the VERY high probability of being destroyed, either because they could not be transferred to the womb, or because they do not survive the transplant. The number is extremely relevant - every single one of them is a human life! Just being frozen is not the only fate they may have.

~Liza

Yes, you’re entirely correct.

I didn’t go far enough in explaining my point. I was attempting to explain that even if a single embryo was produced and it was implanted i.e. there was no other “wasted” life, that IVF would still be prohibited due to it’s disconnect of intimacy and reproduction.

 

[lizaanne]

Yes, you’re entirely correct.

I didn’t go far enough in explaining my point. I was attempting to explain that even if a single embryo was produced and it was implanted i.e. there was no other “wasted” life, that IVF would still be prohibited due to it’s disconnect of intimacy and reproduction.

Gotcha!

~Liza

 

[Lorrie]

When I was 17 I had to have my ovaries removed because they were cystic, my fallopian tubes were also removed in the process. The surgeon left my uterus so I could have IVF in the future. Both my sisters let me know that I could use their eggs, etc. It pains me because I know I’ll never have a child of my own (yes, I could adopt, but I’ll never get to experience being pregnant, giving birth, being able to see a part of me in my child). I’ve sometimes thought of doing the IVF anyway and then just going to confession (I know that’s wrong of me to think like that), but the bottom line is that I know I could never do it.

I sometimes wonder, since God has a hand in everything isn’t it possible that IVF is His creation? Didn’t He guide the scientists to come up with it? It’s just heartbreaking knowing that I’ll never have a baby. I see people say things in the Family Life section like, “You never know happiness until you’re a mom” - it crushes me. Like I said, yes, I could adopt, and it’s easy to say to someone, “Oh, just adopt a baby!” - it’s not the same thing though.

I wonder what it’s like to be late (re: your period) and wonder if you’re pregnant. I wonder what it’s like to have a pregnancy test. I wonder what it’s like to have morning sickness. I wonder what it’s like to feel a baby moving inside of you. I wonder what it’s like to go into labor and give birth. I wonder what it’s like to have the nurse place your baby in your arms for the first time and you look down at him/her and feel so much love. For all the people who have babies of their own please cherish this as there are a lot of people who will never experience it.

 

[Seatuck]

When I was 17 I had to have my ovaries removed because they were cystic, my fallopian tubes were also removed in the process. The surgeon left my uterus so I could have IVF in the future. Both my sisters let me know that I could use their eggs, etc. It pains me because I know I’ll never have a child of my own (yes, I could adopt, but I’ll never get to experience being pregnant, giving birth, being able to see a part of me in my child). I’ve sometimes thought of doing the IVF anyway and then just going to confession (I know that’s wrong of me to think like that), but the bottom line is that I know I could never do it.

I sometimes wonder, since God has a hand in everything isn’t it possible that IVF is His creation? Didn’t He guide the scientists to come up with it? It’s just heartbreaking knowing that I’ll never have a baby. I see people say things in the Family Life section like, “You never know happiness until you’re a mom” - it crushes me. Like I said, yes, I could adopt, and it’s easy to say to someone, “Oh, just adopt a baby!” - it’s not the same thing though.

I wonder what it’s like to be late (re: your period) and wonder if you’re pregnant. I wonder what it’s like to have a pregnancy test. I wonder what it’s like to have morning sickness. I wonder what it’s like to feel a baby moving inside of you. I wonder what it’s like to go into labor and give birth. I wonder what it’s like to have the nurse place your baby in your arms for the first time and you look down at him/her and feel so much love. For all the people who have babies of their own please cherish this as there are a lot of people who will never experience it.

I’m sorry for your pain. There are all kinds of evil in the world that God allows. This doesn’t mean he lets avail ourselves of them. There are too many things that are immoral about IVF for it to be a gift from God for infertile people.Children have a right to be created from a loving act between their parents. Again, So very sorry for your loss.

Two articles for the reasons why it is wrong-

usccb.org/prolife/programs/rlp/98rlphaa.shtml

christendom-awake.org/pages/may/begetting.htm

 

[Newbie2]

Gotcha!

~Liza

I stand, ever humble.

 

[1ke]

I sometimes wonder, since God has a hand in everything isn’t it possible that IVF is His creation?

No.

Didn’t He guide the scientists to come up with it?

No. He didn’t guide scientists to come up with IVF any more than he guided the scientists who came up with the atom bomb or nuclear weapons.

God is not the author of anything that is immoral. God’s principles for the proper use of our sexuality are our guidance. Scientists think up a lot of things, and do them just because they can.

God’s revealed Truth must always inform our actions.

It’s just heartbreaking knowing that I’ll never have a baby.

I am sorry this is so heart wrenching for you. I hope that some day God will grant you his peace in this area.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

IVF is clearly well intentioned, it’s also clearly immoral. Moreover, one of the less know secrets is that the emotional and physical stress of IVF (particularly attempts that repeatedly fail) often has an extremely negative impact on a marriage - much more so that natural infertility or fertility difficulty.

Pax,
OA

 

[Kasey1]

Good question.

Acutally, that isn’t the major reason that IVF is prohibited. IVF removes intercourse and the intimacy bound to it from the act of procreation. So, the number of embryos really isn’t relevant, except as you noted that they usually end up in a frozen “limbo”.

Pretty much any treatments that do not interfere with a natural act of intercourse are permitted i.e. hormonal treatments, surgery to correct anatomical irregularities, etc.

thanks,i get much useful knowledge

http://www.photosnag.com/img/4673/n09x0302vnsn/clear.gif

 

[Gerard_Nadal]

When I was 17 I had to have my ovaries removed because they were cystic, my fallopian tubes were also removed in the process. The surgeon left my uterus so I could have IVF in the future. Both my sisters let me know that I could use their eggs, etc. It pains me because I know I’ll never have a child of my own (yes, I could adopt, but I’ll never get to experience being pregnant, giving birth, being able to see a part of me in my child). I’ve sometimes thought of doing the IVF anyway and then just going to confession (I know that’s wrong of me to think like that), but the bottom line is that I know I could never do it.

I sometimes wonder, since God has a hand in everything isn’t it possible that IVF is His creation? Didn’t He guide the scientists to come up with it? It’s just heartbreaking knowing that I’ll never have a baby. I see people say things in the Family Life section like, “You never know happiness until you’re a mom” - it crushes me. Like I said, yes, I could adopt, and it’s easy to say to someone, “Oh, just adopt a baby!” - it’s not the same thing though.

I wonder what it’s like to be late (re: your period) and wonder if you’re pregnant. I wonder what it’s like to have a pregnancy test. I wonder what it’s like to have morning sickness. I wonder what it’s like to feel a baby moving inside of you. I wonder what it’s like to go into labor and give birth. I wonder what it’s like to have the nurse place your baby in your arms for the first time and you look down at him/her and feel so much love. For all the people who have babies of their own please cherish this as there are a lot of people who will never experience it.

**Lorrie,

I am a Ph.D. in Molecular Biology and Microbiology. Scientists have free will, the same as anyone else. We use it for good or ill in our chosen profession.

I understand your pain, and how that pain can drive one to acts they know to be sinful in the pursuit of something good and Holy. But at what price?

IVF removes the mother and father as the principle actors in procreation. The child does not issue forth from the physical loving embrace of spouses, but from masturbation and egg retrieval, followed by manipulation of the gametes by technicians. The parents are relegated to the status of tissue donor and sideline observer. Then the embryos are sorted through, as the technicians look for ‘keepers’ and throw away the less than perfect humans created. The keepers are rated according to how robust they are, with the best prospects implanted and the ‘leftovers’ frozen in liquid nitrogen. Most will remain there until thrown away, or succumbing to freezer burn.

These babies are not the property of their parents, to be disposed of at will. No child is. Yet, that is how they are treated, not just by the staff, but by the parents themselves. Lost in all of this is the sacred manner in which spouses conceive children. Rather than, ‘begotten, not made’, they are ,‘made, not begotten.’ This strikes at the heart of marriage and how it is supposed to be a reflection on earth of the Trinity and union with Christ in Heaven. It causes parents to treat children as property, to consent to the killing of several of their children in the headlong pursuit of having a child that is biologically theirs. The evil attendant to this technology is unspeakable, the more one contemplates it.

I truly understand your pain. I ask that you not compound it by engaging this monstrous technology. Pray to our Blessed Mother and pour out to her your agony that only another woman and mother could understand. Ask her intercession that her Son will make known His will for you. A plan to preserve you from the horrors of the soulless technology visited upon the world by my community of scientists.

God Bless.**

 

[amn56]

Hi! I’m new to this so bare with me…
I know a person that cannot have any children. She was raised Catholic by her parents and many siblings. Her marriage disolved, and she divorced about 5 years ago. After she divorced she dicieded to recieve egg and sperm doner…then they implanted the embryos. One took and she now has a child, but no blood relation…almost like adoption. She recently gave birth to two more children of the same doners. What does the catholic church say in reguards to this type of lifestyle and choices? I seem to be very upset at her choices she has made.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

Hi! I’m new to this so bare with me…
I know a person that cannot have any children. She was raised Catholic by her parents and many siblings. Her marriage disolved, and she divorced about 5 years ago. After she divorced she dicieded to recieve egg and sperm doner…then they implanted the embryos. One took and she now has a child, but no blood relation…almost like adoption. She recently gave birth to two more children of the same doners. What does the catholic church say in reguards to this type of lifestyle and choices? I seem to be very upset at her choices she has made.

Like everyone, she has committed sin. Not as bad as some people, worse than others. But that’s her issue to reconcile. Not be upset with her at all. If you feel that she needs guidance give it in a loving and kind manner. If she doesn’t agree with your advice, don’t let it eat you up.

You job is to love her, give appropriate advice, (when able) support her decisions. You don’t need to judge her or get upset with her.

As always, encourage her to go talk to a good priest.

Pax,
OA

 

[Elizabeth502]

As well as knowing when to accept God’s will — which may very well mean not having your own biological children.

…which in my own lifetime was once standard. (If you couldn’t, you found alternatives to those roles, or adopted.) Sometime in the 1980’s it became unacceptable to adopt and instead to demand genetic continuity – ironically at the same time that adoption dramatically lost its stigma and many adoption laws (about disclosure and such) changed. I don’t mean to condemn or judge those who yearn for that continuity. At one point, when I thought I couldn’t have my own natural children (I was wrong), I felt like half a person; it was a traumatic moment, so I do understand what that feels like. But when I look at what some of my friends and associates have gone through, not just with IVF, but with far more tortuous and extreme efforts (surrogacy, donor eggs, what have you), it feels to me distant from the whole and naturally integrated experience of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

I’m sorry that this doesn’t answer the OP’s question; I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t see reproductive technology as always being such an upside in the first place, compared with infertiility or adoption. I know why very intelligent people generally do not like to adopt: because the statistics of very intelligent babies in the adoption pool are much smaller. Everybody I know who has both natural and adopted children says that the adopted ones are not as bright as their own issue. (That’s just from among those I happen to know; by no means is it meant as a generality.) I guess it just may explain why the very educated tend to prefer assisted reproduction (in addition to the fact that they can afford it).

 

[manualman]

…

1. I see people say things in the Family Life section like, “You never know happiness until you’re a mom” - it crushes me. Like I said, yes, I could adopt, and it’s easy to say to someone, “Oh, just adopt a baby!” - it’s not the same thing though.
2. I wonder what it’s like to be late (re: your period) and wonder if you’re pregnant. I wonder what it’s like to have a pregnancy test. I wonder what it’s like to have morning sickness. I wonder what it’s like to feel a baby moving inside of you. I wonder what it’s like to go into labor and give birth. I wonder what it’s like to have the nurse place your baby in your arms for the first time and you look down at him/her and feel so much love. For all the people who have babies of their own please cherish this as there are a lot of people who will never experience it.

1. The people saying those things are only partially right. You feel precisely that way when you discover your true vocation, the mission God designed and built you to be optimized for. If life’s circumstances have resulted in you having no ovaries, DON’T PANIC! God just has a different and equally magnificent mission for you. It just isn’t the same as theirs is.
2. Thanks for the great reminder to be thankful for those things that are easy to take fro granted (especially at 2 in the morning when that ‘cherished one’ will NOT let you sleep). But once again, don’t underestimate God. There are a lot of ways he can and does bring unspeakble joy into people’s hearts - if you let him.

 

[dixieagle]

When I was 17 I had to have my ovaries removed because they were cystic, my fallopian tubes were also removed in the process. The surgeon left my uterus so I could have IVF in the future. Both my sisters let me know that I could use their eggs, etc. It pains me because I know I’ll never have a child of my own (yes, I could adopt, but I’ll never get to experience being pregnant, giving birth, being able to see a part of me in my child). I’ve sometimes thought of doing the IVF anyway and then just going to confession (I know that’s wrong of me to think like that), but the bottom line is that I know I could never do it.

I sometimes wonder, since God has a hand in everything isn’t it possible that IVF is His creation? Didn’t He guide the scientists to come up with it? It’s just heartbreaking knowing that I’ll never have a baby. I see people say things in the Family Life section like, “You never know happiness until you’re a mom” - it crushes me. Like I said, yes, I could adopt, and it’s easy to say to someone, “Oh, just adopt a baby!” - it’s not the same thing though.

I wonder what it’s like to be late (re: your period) and wonder if you’re pregnant. I wonder what it’s like to have a pregnancy test. I wonder what it’s like to have morning sickness. I wonder what it’s like to feel a baby moving inside of you. I wonder what it’s like to go into labor and give birth. I wonder what it’s like to have the nurse place your baby in your arms for the first time and you look down at him/her and feel so much love. For all the people who have babies of their own please cherish this as there are a lot of people who will never experience it.

Lorrie,

I’m so sorry for your pain.

The subject of “embryo adoption” is one that - to the best of my knowledge and research - the Catholic Church has not definitively ruled on.

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=2236

Understand that I am speaking only of those embryos that are “left over” from the immoral IVF process, with no hope otherwise. This is a very interesting topic of debate, and the door is at least left open for women to, in effect, “rescue” an embryo through implantation.

So, it is at least something to study and pray over. God bless you.

 

[Jason_1977]

I seem to remember having a discussion about humanae vitae & essentially knowingly manipulating natural processes for reproduction or the prevention of it is a sin. let me find it, hang on a sec…nope, it covers abortion & mostly the morality & immorality of that process. hmmm…I’m not sure…that’s a good question. My guess is that both parties are open to life, a life is going to result, I am not sure, thought I could help ya & a tidal wave of dumb came over me, I’m sorry…lol