P
portarica
Guest
Can faithful Jews get into heaven, even if they are not invincibly ignorant?
Thanks,
Peace
Thanks,
Peace
- Status
N
Nathan_Wagar
Guest
If they are not invincibly ignorant, than no. That’s the whole point of invincible ignorance. Only God can truly determine this, however, so for all intents and purposes, it’s a question we can’t really make a judgement on. The Mosaic covenant is no longer salvific, however, if that is the point your are alluding to. That is the “dual-covenant” heresy.
C
COPLAND_3
Guest
Jew is such a broad word here. I am sure I know what you mean, but for the sake of clarification we need to point out that being Jewish does not necessarily mean you practice Judaism. There are Jews by race in which there are Jewish Christians, and there are those who follow Orthodox Judaism in which they follow basically the same faith of the Pharisees.
Anybody who follows God the best they can by whatever ways He has revealed Himself to them will be shown mercy. If the Gospel has not been revealed to them, God can determine whether or not they would submit to it if they were given the chance. But if they have had a sufficient revealing of the Gospel revealed to them and they reject what God has provided them concerning Christ, then that is where a person will be rejected by God.
Anybody who follows God the best they can by whatever ways He has revealed Himself to them will be shown mercy. If the Gospel has not been revealed to them, God can determine whether or not they would submit to it if they were given the chance. But if they have had a sufficient revealing of the Gospel revealed to them and they reject what God has provided them concerning Christ, then that is where a person will be rejected by God.
T
TMC
Guest
I am not sure what definition of invincibly ignorant you are using. Invincibly ignorant does not mean that the person has never heard of Christ or the Catholic Church. It simply means that the person does not know that baptism in Christ is necessary for salvation. As the catechism describes it, salvation is possible for all those who “would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.” CCC 1260.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
if a person is a faithful Jew he is invincibly ignorant by definition, in that he will neither listen to, entertain or hear any message contrary to his faith, so yes he many enter heaven, along with those righteous of his ancesters who were escorted their personally on resurrection day.
I think my spiritual energy would be much better spent working out my own salvation and wondering if I will get to heaven, than speculating on the faith of third parties, let alone entire races or creeds.
I think my spiritual energy would be much better spent working out my own salvation and wondering if I will get to heaven, than speculating on the faith of third parties, let alone entire races or creeds.
V
Vince1022
Guest
Yes
N
Nathan_Wagar
Guest
No. If they are not invincibly ignorant, then no. Read your council statements. Don’t spread confusion. Invincible ignorance by its very nature implies some ignorance of the truth of the necessity of Christ. If they do not have invincible ignorance, then they know Christ is the way to salvation, and reject him. You, my friend, are espousing heresy. The dual-covenant belief is a heresy, and has been infallibly condemned.
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, para. 29: “…the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished…but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross”;
The Catechism of the Council of Trent: “…the people, aware of the abrogation of the
Mosaic Law…”;
Council of Florence: “that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of theMosaic law…although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began”;
Council of Trent: “but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom”
Ҥ714 The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of
those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics,
and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,’ (Matthew 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
—Cantate Domino, from the infallible ecumenical Council of Florence under His Holiness Pope Eugene IV defining the Solemn Doctrine: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, promulgated by papal bull, February 4, 1444 [Florentine calendar] in Denziger Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, § 712-714
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, para. 29: “…the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished…but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross”;
The Catechism of the Council of Trent: “…the people, aware of the abrogation of the
Mosaic Law…”;
Council of Florence: “that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of theMosaic law…although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began”;
Council of Trent: “but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom”
Ҥ714 The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of
those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics,
and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,’ (Matthew 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
—Cantate Domino, from the infallible ecumenical Council of Florence under His Holiness Pope Eugene IV defining the Solemn Doctrine: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, promulgated by papal bull, February 4, 1444 [Florentine calendar] in Denziger Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, § 712-714
N
Nathan_Wagar
Guest
No. If they are not invincibly ignorant, then no. Read your council statements. Don’t spread confusion. Invincible ignorance by its very nature implies some ignorance of the truth of the necessity of Christ, which only God can judge. If they do not have invincible ignorance, then they know Christ is the way to salvation, and reject him. You either misunderstand invincible ignorance, misread the question, or are espousing the dual-covenant heresy, which has been infallibly condemned.
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, para. 29: “…the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished…but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross”;
The Catechism of the Council of Trent: “…the people, aware of the abrogation of the
Mosaic Law…”;
Council of Florence: “that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law…although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began”;
Council of Trent: “but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom”
Ҥ714 The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of
those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, and heretics,
and schismatics, can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil, and his angels,’ (Matthew 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this Ecclesiastical Body, that only those remaining within this unity can profit from the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and that they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, alms deeds, and other works of Christian piety and duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”
—Cantate Domino, from the infallible ecumenical Council of Florence under His Holiness Pope Eugene IV defining the Solemn Doctrine: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, promulgated by papal bull, February 4, 1444 [Florentine calendar] in Denziger Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, § 712-714
J
JM3
Guest
“IN SHORT… Many people, Christians and some Jews as well, erroneously believe that just as one can be Black and Christian, just as one can be Oriental and Christian, one can also be Jewish and Christian. It is not true. The Jews are not a race. There is no genetic code passed from either mother or father to the child that makes that child a Jew. Even if all, or some, of the genetic code in a child could be proved to be of Jewish Origin, that would not make the child a Jew. Jewish law determines who is a Jew, and Jewish law is quite clear. If a person’s mother is a Jew, and that person has not converted to another faith, then that person will be considered fully Jewish, so long as that person wishes to identify solely as a Jew. Although one cannot convert to become a member of a race, for example one cannot convert to become an Oriental or an African-American, one who converts to Judaism does, indeed, become fully a Jew. Similarly, if one converts from Judaism to another faith, one is no longer a Jew.”
whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation9.html
R
redrosetea
Guest
Here here:clapping::clapping:…Judgment is for God alone…It is not up to us to decide how God reveals himself to others…
C
COPLAND_3
Guest
The meaning that I am referring to is summed up by the Catholic Encyclopedia “denotes usually the Israelites or descendants of Jacob (Israel) in contrast to Gentile races;” There are many Jews who do not follow Judaism, and that is the point that I am making. There are atheist Jews, Christian Jews, etc etc. But the OP was asking if Jews can go to heaven, and the intention was concerning Jews under Judaism, but not everyone understands the distinctions, I only wanted to clarify for those who didn’t.
T
tskrobacz
Guest
Jesus is a Jew…he is in Heaven.
C
COPLAND_3
Guest
It is beneficial to learn the ways of God, and it is good to understand the strong points and ther weak points in other faiths. Though it is not good to do so in a self-righteous manner while looking down our noses at others from other faiths. We as Catholics are truly blessed to have the full Gospel revealed to us through the Church that Christ established, not everyone has that “luxery” (actually grace). For those who are seeking God with all their hearts but have not found the Catholic Faith, everything that they do know about God that is true is all a preparation for the Gospel. I highly recommend these links concering this whole thread
litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Does+ignorance+of+Christ+send+people+to+Hell%3F?t=anon
litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Christianity+Draws+From+Other+Religions%3F
V
Vince1022
Guest
Those historical statements are interesting, and valuable. But most don’t address the question asked.
Anyway, don’t stop quoting Church teaching with Pius XII. See the current Catechism, para 846-848. That’s why I answered the way I did.
N
Nathan_Wagar
Guest
They are more than “interesting,” they are infallible. They all directly pertain to the question, since if a Jew does NOT have invincible ignorance, then the only covenant he is following for his own salvation is the mosaic, which as the councils and papal statements state, has been abrogated. Again, you either are asserting the dual-covenant heresy, misunderstood the initial question, or misunderstand invincible ignorance. The statements by the Catechism do not help your assertion in any way, since as is abundantly clear, they are referring directly to a state of invincible ignorance. I find it a bit interesting that you would attempt to use a Catechism statement to try and nullify the teaching of a previous infallible statement, particularly when it doesn’t support your point:
846: How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
J
JM3
Guest
Perhaps, someday people will learn how to read.
V
Vince1022
Guest
No,. they’re not infallible.
Where does the Catechism refer to “invincible ignorance” in the passages I cited?
I have no idea what the “dual-covenant heresy” is that you keep mentioning. If it’s really relevant, please clarify. I’ve never heard of it. Thanks.
I was not citing the Catechism as a way to nullify anything. Merely to present what the Catholic Church teaches (today).
N
Nathan_Wagar
Guest
Okay, this is pointless debating with you. You have proved abundantly clear that you
A. Don’t understand invincible ignorance.
B. Don’t understand infallibility of Church teaching.
C. Don’t understand the Catechism.
Do me the favor of studying up on the above three before you make heretical statements like:
A. Councils of Trent and Florence as well as Papal Encyclicals in matters of faith and morals are not infallible.
B. Jews (or anyobody else) can be saved even if they don’t have invincible ignorance.
C. The new Catechism changes previous infallible teaching.
I suggest you read up on invincible ignorance, then read the quotes in the Catechism again that I highlighted in bold. Maybe if you had done so you would not be asking where the Catechism talks about invincible ignorance.
A. Don’t understand invincible ignorance.
B. Don’t understand infallibility of Church teaching.
C. Don’t understand the Catechism.
Do me the favor of studying up on the above three before you make heretical statements like:
A. Councils of Trent and Florence as well as Papal Encyclicals in matters of faith and morals are not infallible.
B. Jews (or anyobody else) can be saved even if they don’t have invincible ignorance.
C. The new Catechism changes previous infallible teaching.
I suggest you read up on invincible ignorance, then read the quotes in the Catechism again that I highlighted in bold. Maybe if you had done so you would not be asking where the Catechism talks about invincible ignorance.
V
Vince1022
Guest
Nowhere does the Catholic Church teach that everything taught by the Councils of Trent and Florence, nor everything taught via Papal Encyclicals, are taught infallibly. In fact, nothing taught infallibly by the Catholic Church has been done so via Papal Encyclicals. This is simple, clear, Catholic teaching. If you disagree, please provide Magisterial references to show otherwise.
Perhaps you are confused by the fact that Ecumenical Councils CAN teach infallibly, but that does not mean (obviously) that every teaching of every Ecumenical Council is taught infallibly?
This is simply what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, see para 846-848.
I don’t know what you mean by the “new Catechism”–meaning, from what I know, there is only one universal Catechism for the Catholic Church, not a “new” one along with some “old” or “older” one… but regardless, yes, Catholic teaching does in fact change and develop.
I would be happy to. Where does the Catechism of the Catholic Church refer to “invincible ignorance”? Thanks for your help.
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
Dear Nathan,
What is the “dual-covenant” heresy?
I am guessing, but I would like the imput of a catholic, I am admittedly unsure of the term.
- Status