Can Jews get into heaven?

[sidbrown]

Sidebrown,

You wrote:

The Vatican is a State and thus the Church has not fully lost temporal power.

The site you give is about the Talmud, not about Nazi-like behavior of the Church.

You make accusations about the Church. Would you like to substantiate them?

No. The quote is from chosenpeople, not from me. So please ask him about it. I am with you. Thanks a lot.

 

[sidbrown]

The idea of all people being equally precious in the eyes of the one God, …

Since all people are equally precious in the eyes of God, why did God leave out the Chinese people when He decided to choose only the Jews for his chosen people?

 

[chosen_people]

Sidebrown,

You wrote:

The Vatican is a State and thus the Church has not fully lost temporal power.

The site you give is about the Talmud, not about Nazi-like behavior of the Church.

You make accusations about the Church. Would you like to substantiate them?

Well obviously I was referring to loss of temporal power over tens of thousands of Jews.

If you are trying to be facetious about “the accusations” then I am truly not amused. If, on the other hand, Catholic lack of knowledge of the history of their Church is as great as your post would indicate, than I am truly saddened. On the chance that that the latter is the case, a starting point would be Pope Paul IV July 14, 1555 Cum nimis absurdum and then jump to Pope Pius IV 1562. If we’re in that period go to Rosh Hashana (the Jewish New Year) 1553. See also "estatutos de limpieza de sangre (statutes of blood purity) and the Jesuit order requirement (rescinded 1946) preventing a Christian with any Jewish ancestry less than 5 generations from joining the Jesuit order. If you can’t carry on from there regarding the “accusations” I will be happy to provide further assistance.

 

[NoelFitz]

Koheleth

You wrote:

I will say kaddish for my mother when the time comes (in 60 or more years!); I will sit shiva and observe her yahrzeit, and I firmly believe that it will not be in vain.

Congratulations on your insights. I am pleased you will say kaddish for your mother. I believe a central theme is May His great name be blessed forever, and to all eternity . I also think kaddish begins with

So I will display my greatness and my holiness and make myself known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD.

One of the most moving things I ever heard was the recital of kaddish on holocaust memorial day some years ago.

The seven days of mourning and grief for near relatives is a good custom, as is lighting candles on the anniversary of a dead perseon.

I admire Jews, but that does not blind me to the treatment by Jews of Palestinians in the Middle East, where the whole of Gaza has been converted into a ghetto and Palestinians are mistreated and humiliated.

I also admire Americans, but I acknowledge that they have tortured (waterboarding) innocent people. The atrocities of Abu Ghreib should not detract from the great contributions of Americans to disaster relief in many parts of the world.

In the past some peoples ( e.g. Jews, Irish, Poles) may have been mistreated by others. None of us has a perfect history.

 

[chosen_people]

And I suppose that this spitting on Catholic priests in Israel never happens either?
Some Jews are anti-Catholic and some Catholics are anti-semites. That unfortunately is the fact and I think it goes both ways.

There are indeed some Ultra-Orthodox Jews who spit in the direction of Priests and when passing Churches. I personally find this intolerable even given two thousand years of persecutions. However, it is not part of Judaism and Ultra Orthodox Jews are hardly mainstream. This is different than a Papal Bull giving authority to persecutions of Jews. I am currently hearing a case where the a Priest assaulted an Ultra Orthodox Jew in the old city of Jerusalem and the Priest’s defense is that he reacted after the victim of the assault spit in his direction.

 

[chosen_people]

No.
Much of what is on this web page which you have referred to here is true, and there have been distortions. However, I don;t think that what is said there about the Talmud and Jesus is accepted by either all scholars or even by all rabbis. For example, take the book by Professor Peter Schäfer, who is Ronald O. Perelman Professor of Judaic Studies and Director of the Program in Judaic Studies at Princeton University.: Jesus in the Talmud by
Peter Schäfer ISBN: 978-1-4008-2761-9. :
“The Talmudic stories make fun of Jesus’ birth from a virgin, fervently contest his claim to be the Messiah and Son of God, and maintain that he was rightfully executed as a blasphemer and idolater. They subvert the Christian idea of Jesus’ resurrection and insist he got the punishment he deserved in hell–and that a similar fate awaits his followers.”
“In [this] book Schäfer has pr oven himself not only a formidable scholar of ancient and medieval Jewish texts . . . but also a talented author from whose hands the text flows like the water to which the rabbis likened the Torah.”–Galoot Has an-Rome, Jewish Quarterly Review

press.princeton.edu/titles/8383.html

I haven’t read the book and I presume that you haven’t either. Since we know that there are virtually no references that can even be construed to relating to Jesus in the Talmud , then what can be the basis for his assertions? He refers to the Babylonian Talmud saying that the Jews were in a freer environment to write these things, but they would also have less need to do so. The contention that Jews feel Jesus is in Hell is especially interesting as the Christian concept of Hell does not exist in Judaism.The use of the words “make fun” and "subvert"are loaded to say the least. The idea that the followers of Jesus are also destined to hell (again which doesn’t exist Judaism in the Christian sense) is nonsensical as according to Judaism any Gentile is destined to the word to come if they follow the seven Noahide commandments.

;

 

[Vince1022]

I
So, Jews can enter Heaven if they are ignorant of the Gospel, but what about those Jews who have read them at school and learned about Christianity but remain Jews? Wouldn’t they still be considered ignorant of the Gospel?

Yes. Ignorance of the Gospel does not mean ignorance of the Bible. It means ignorance of the truth of Jesus Christ.

 

[Vince1022]

The basis of Christianity is the rejection of the eternal covenant with the claim that now there is a “new” and antithetical covenant.

No. Read Matthew Chapter 5 verse 17. As Jesus Christ says there, he came to fulfill the law and prophets, not abolish them.

The “new” covenant is not antithetical to any prior covenant. God is still God.

 

[Vince1022]

Vince1022,
a problem may arise by not distinguishing the Jews as a race and as a religion.

St Paul was a Jew and never stopped being one

Yes St. Paul stopped being a Jew when he recognized Christ as God, and Christ as the fulfillment of God’s revelation.

In other words…in your opinion was St. Paul a Christian or not? Yes or no?

 

[chosen_people]

No. Read Matthew Chapter 5 verse 17. As Jesus Christ says there, he came to fulfill the law and prophets, not abolish them.

The “new” covenant is not antithetical to any prior covenant. God is still God.

Indeed that is what Christians say. While indeed there is only the one true God and He is the God of all, the God of the Jews and the Eternal Covenant is not and could never be a trinity nor could God ever have human form nor could the Oral and Written Law ever cease to be relevant as it is “fulfilled”, as Torah is the guidepost to redemption in Judaism and not faith in the Christian messiah.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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