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TheRealJuliane
Guest
That’s being done, in every way possible. Christ also didn’t go and fetch back the prodigal but waited until he had “dined with the pigs” and recognized his need for salvation.
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JRKH
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Nine_Two
Guest
Asking whether liberal Christianity can be saved is a bit like asking a cancer patient whether his cancer can be saved.
The answer is no, and no one will miss it.
The answer is no, and no one will miss it.
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JustaServant
Guest
I would tend to agee, liberalism produces unbelief.
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CMatt25
Guest
I’m not sure whether the membership numbers of any church matters all that much or not since Christ did speak of “few”. But since numbers of mainline - liberal Christians and specifically matters of the Episcopal Church it seems, draw so much attention to people on CAF, I’ll share this.
The priest of a small Episcopal church near me said she has been tracking attendance of her English language service for sometime now on a spread sheet. They also have a Spanish service which is already the most heavily attended. And she told me recently the trend appears to be growing for the English service as well. I actually might add to its numbers as it is one I am considering attending after being told I am not a Catholic despite Sacraments which I apparently misunderstood made me one. And just generally being made to feel unwelcomed. Not by all certainly for which I am grateful but by too many for my taste. And I am told this church welcomes all as they are and wherever one is on their faith journey. That it is made up of many different people with different gifts, experiences and POV whose underlying purpose is to care for each other.
Believing it is only through the love and grace of Jesus that any of us are where we are.
The priest there is also willing to be of service to all, members as well as non members. I personally just see a lot of Christ in her and in this particular church. I remember reading in Jn 6 where Christ said He would turn no one away. And they also operate one of the best outreach programs I’ve known. I’ve donated to it because I like that it is not a thrift type store as some churches I know have. At this one the needy are actually given food and clothing free of charge.
In any case, wherever any of us are along our faith journeys, may God bless liberals, conservatives and all who walk in faith. Peace.
The priest of a small Episcopal church near me said she has been tracking attendance of her English language service for sometime now on a spread sheet. They also have a Spanish service which is already the most heavily attended. And she told me recently the trend appears to be growing for the English service as well. I actually might add to its numbers as it is one I am considering attending after being told I am not a Catholic despite Sacraments which I apparently misunderstood made me one. And just generally being made to feel unwelcomed. Not by all certainly for which I am grateful but by too many for my taste. And I am told this church welcomes all as they are and wherever one is on their faith journey. That it is made up of many different people with different gifts, experiences and POV whose underlying purpose is to care for each other.
Believing it is only through the love and grace of Jesus that any of us are where we are.
The priest there is also willing to be of service to all, members as well as non members. I personally just see a lot of Christ in her and in this particular church. I remember reading in Jn 6 where Christ said He would turn no one away. And they also operate one of the best outreach programs I’ve known. I’ve donated to it because I like that it is not a thrift type store as some churches I know have. At this one the needy are actually given food and clothing free of charge.
In any case, wherever any of us are along our faith journeys, may God bless liberals, conservatives and all who walk in faith. Peace.
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exnihilo
Guest
No it can’t and that seems to be a good thing based on where it has ended up. But liberal Christianity has been tremendously successful. Its main message is that Christianity is completely unnecessary. It says Sunday worship attendance, the church, prayer, fasting, abstinence and any sort of sacrifice is unnecessary. It defines sin as not accepting and valuing other people’s sin. It has been successful because people have heard the message, believed it and lived it. But there is no need for the church in liberal Christianity. The state can do the same work and better since it can compel people. So the church must wither under liberal Christianity. Of course such a view seems to me not to be Christian because the church is a real thing and instituted by Christ. Any groups that says the church is not real and important is not really Christian.
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St_Francis
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Yes, I put that badly. I should have said, Can we attract people to Truth by setting out lies on their path?
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jam070406
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TheRealJuliane
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Allegra
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We wouldn’t be putting lies in their path. The lies are already there. Unless you are contending that we are somehow responsible for the existance of liberal Churches? Or are you referring to those who attempt to spread liberal ideas amongst Catholics.
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St_Francis
Guest
I was replying to a post attempting to defend trying to save “liberal Christian” ecclesial communities.We wouldn’t be putting lies in their path. The lies are already there. Unless you are contending that we are somehow responsible for the existance of liberal Churches? Or are you referring to those who attempt to spread liberal ideas amongst Catholics.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
She didn’t say let people die (or “be excluded”).
She referenced the movement. So did the article, by the way. I read the whole thing when it appeared, and I was struck by how actually quite negative (and truthfully so) the persepctive was. The writer honestly acknowledged how little “liberal Chrstianity” had done to retain its members (church attendance, etc.). That was key, to me. The perception, not taken from Catholic sources, but coming from the author, that some forms and practices of “liberal Christianity” have done nothing more than import a secular worldview into a religious setting was an astoundingly accurate statement, with critical implications to suggest what does not attract/keep members.
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Nabooru
Guest
I can only elaborate on what others have said. Compare the Episcopal Church losing a third of its membership in the past forty years; the ACNA has existed for three years and already has over 100,000 members, mostly former disunited Anglican congregations but many, many new members, including myself and several members of my own church. And churches keep being planted.
Typically when I read about the activities of the local Episcopal churches, there’s a superficial admiration of “tradition” (like wearing albs and stoles, and lifting the host), with a mostly pluralistic anything-goes attitude regarding faith. I’ve heard and read Episcopalians brag about how their priest doesn’t believe in the Resurrection or that the Bible is the Word of God, that Jesus was just a nice guy and whether or not he’s the Son, or even if there is a Son, is irrelevant.
In fact in the liberal churches I see this tendency towards being apologetic for calling oneself “Christian”. They encourage imams, swamis, bhikkus, etc. to preach their sermons, specifically present themselves as especially welcoming of “a variety of different views” - which is why you’ll find atheists like Spong in their ranks. They owe it to other religious to be so accepting as to promote them, while increasingly denying orthodox Christian doctrine as somehow offensive.
In such an “open” environment, there aren’t any answers, just hints and suggestions. They can’t offer any more spiritual guidance than “do whatever feels best”. And like many posters have already said, that makes the church redundant. Would you go to a college in which the students merely attended whatever classes they liked best, didn’t have to do homework if they didn’t want, and were taught “E=mc^2…or whatever feels right to you. Formulate your own idea of what E equals.” They would be so accepting of you that you wouldn’t be changed at all by attending. So why get up early on a Sunday morning to sit through a boring feel-good service when you could just go on the way you could? What’s the point?
Typically when I read about the activities of the local Episcopal churches, there’s a superficial admiration of “tradition” (like wearing albs and stoles, and lifting the host), with a mostly pluralistic anything-goes attitude regarding faith. I’ve heard and read Episcopalians brag about how their priest doesn’t believe in the Resurrection or that the Bible is the Word of God, that Jesus was just a nice guy and whether or not he’s the Son, or even if there is a Son, is irrelevant.
In fact in the liberal churches I see this tendency towards being apologetic for calling oneself “Christian”. They encourage imams, swamis, bhikkus, etc. to preach their sermons, specifically present themselves as especially welcoming of “a variety of different views” - which is why you’ll find atheists like Spong in their ranks. They owe it to other religious to be so accepting as to promote them, while increasingly denying orthodox Christian doctrine as somehow offensive.
In such an “open” environment, there aren’t any answers, just hints and suggestions. They can’t offer any more spiritual guidance than “do whatever feels best”. And like many posters have already said, that makes the church redundant. Would you go to a college in which the students merely attended whatever classes they liked best, didn’t have to do homework if they didn’t want, and were taught “E=mc^2…or whatever feels right to you. Formulate your own idea of what E equals.” They would be so accepting of you that you wouldn’t be changed at all by attending. So why get up early on a Sunday morning to sit through a boring feel-good service when you could just go on the way you could? What’s the point?
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TheRealJuliane
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
People who follow Christ, even though some are making bigger mistakes than others, are seeking Him. No one has reached His perfection, not a single one of us here, yet we have hope to one day.
Those who are separated cannot be corrected. I think it is a mistake to make statements that can widen the divide that already exists. It’s the same as pushing them away. If pushed enough, deeper into their mistakes, they would have even a harder time seeing and accepting His truth.
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Prodigal_Son1
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snarflemike
Guest
Sounds to me like the topic is not individuals but their beliefs. We would welcome the individuals, but not their damaging (and sometimes heretical) beliefs.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
And even if they did, do we continue to ‘push’ them away with harshness, or attempt to correct them with love?
A group of people are being discussed as separated because of their sins, yet there is no one without sin. If we do not use love in correcting, it’s much harder for anyone to see His truth through our actions, so we fail them and Him.
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JRKH
Guest
I don’t think you caught the gist of my post. Forgive me if I was not clear…
Certainly we all sin…But we do not embrace sin.
We do not try to say that which has always been sin is now, suddenly, not sin…like those who seek to permit and embrace those in active homosexual relationships…
Sin occurs certainly - but the fact that it occurs does not make it welcome…
I would ask you to go back and re-read my quotation of St Paul in 1 Corinthians and see what he has to say about that Christian community being “liberal” and accepting of those who claim the faith but do not repent of their sin.
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
I agree here that we need to be careful in how we phrase things.
But that said, we cannot be forced to be so “careful” that we water down God’s Truth as taught by the Church. And believe me there are those who seek to force us into silence by taking any statement, no matter how carefully worded, as an attack.
If a person chooses a life of sin; if they choose not to repent of their sin; if they continue to insist that their sin is not sin, then there is really nothing we can do.
…only the Holy Spirit can change their hearts.But they have no right to demand that the Church change her teaching to “accommodate” them. This has nothing to do with the Church excluding them for the Church does not. They exclude themselves by their choice not to repent…
Peace
James
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