C
Crescentinus
Guest
It can’t be saved. It is doomed to fail and fade.
- Status
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
Or another question might be, Should it be saved?
For those who read the article in its entirety, the answer is at the least ambiguous.
For those who read the article in its entirety, the answer is at the least ambiguous.
C
CMatt25
Guest
I don’t think it is a mistake. In this case I know it is. And yes I believe it is the same.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Some do I believe yes. And they risk someday having pushed too far with harshness to the point where they can lose the person for good. But I suppose that will be between them and God and perhaps He will ask them someday why they pushed their brother or sister away.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
What is the alternative to pushing them away when they insist on forcing their errors on everyone?
C
CMatt25
Guest
Besides the love Prodigal Son1 has mentioned in his posts, here are some alternatives from St Paul.
Colossians 3:12 You are the people of God; he loved you and chose you for his own. So then, you must clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.
And St James gives this advice as he speaks of teachers being judged with greater strictness and that they must watch their tongues.
James 3:1 My friends, not many of you should become teachers. As you know, we teachers will be judged with greater strictness than others… 8 But no one has ever been able to tame the tongue. It is evil and uncontrollable, full of deadly poison. 9 We use it to give thanks to our Lord and Father and also to curse other people, who are created in the likeness of God. 10 Words of thanksgiving and cursing pour out from the same mouth. My friends, this should not happen! 11 No spring of water pours out sweet water and bitter water from the same opening.12 A fig tree, my friends, cannot bear olives; a grapevine cannot bear figs, nor can a salty spring produce sweet water.
C
CMatt25
Guest
And in Matt 18:3-4 Jesus Himself says this. “I assure you that unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven. The greatest in the Kingdom of heaven is the one who humbles himself and becomes like this child.”
Yet sometimes some in believing they know and are right, can come across as the greatest, and it seems they miss such messages as kindness, patience, and humility in the process. Such people in spreading their faith can be huge turn-offs to the point where the person they may be trying to reach wants no part of their style and eventually tunes them out.
Yet sometimes some in believing they know and are right, can come across as the greatest, and it seems they miss such messages as kindness, patience, and humility in the process. Such people in spreading their faith can be huge turn-offs to the point where the person they may be trying to reach wants no part of their style and eventually tunes them out.
E
Elizabeth502
Guest
I certainly don’t think anyone should be “pushed” “away.” Again, the content of the article was that all the extraordinary efforts to pull in liberal Christians (by becoming even more liberal, or even more like the operative secular culture) have not, for the most part, succeeded (in the examples that were given, anyway).
It’s very often true that we are convinced that we “need” something (or something is “good for us”) when it isn’t. And it’s not because those desires in themselves are evil, or that they are reflecting our own vices (they can be, but not necessarily), but rather it is that we can be misguided in what we perceive we need, and we can be too narrow in what we assume we need.
I will just give an example when it comes to Catholic liturgy. While it’s true that some Catholics who have been used to a certain very informal and “social” style of Mass continue to seek only that, there is an increasing trend back toward silence & reverence in Catholic worship, prayer and song. (That’s apart from the Latin Mass; just English Masses now.) And that trend is cutting across all age groups, and includes both cradle Catholics and newer converts. And importantly, I have seen it happen in once-very-liberal parishes. It is not being “imposed” by clergy. It is being sought by laity.
It’s very often true that we are convinced that we “need” something (or something is “good for us”) when it isn’t. And it’s not because those desires in themselves are evil, or that they are reflecting our own vices (they can be, but not necessarily), but rather it is that we can be misguided in what we perceive we need, and we can be too narrow in what we assume we need.
I will just give an example when it comes to Catholic liturgy. While it’s true that some Catholics who have been used to a certain very informal and “social” style of Mass continue to seek only that, there is an increasing trend back toward silence & reverence in Catholic worship, prayer and song. (That’s apart from the Latin Mass; just English Masses now.) And that trend is cutting across all age groups, and includes both cradle Catholics and newer converts. And importantly, I have seen it happen in once-very-liberal parishes. It is not being “imposed” by clergy. It is being sought by laity.
D
dzheremi
Guest
What is this discussion even about? There is no “liberal” or “conservative” Christianity. There is only Christianity, and among those who claim to represent it there is only truth or error. Something tells me that these kinds of discussions make no sense at all to people outside of Western, postmodern nations. The nations in which Christianity was first established – places like Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Armenia, and Ethiopia – are, to the extent that they are still Christian, generally uninfected by this grotesque pathology that distorts the holy transfiguration of mankind that we call “Christianity” into a social good (the “social gospel”), a mere morals and blessings dispensary, a quaint cultural ritual, or (as we here) an adjunct of the secular humanist political system and worldview that wouldn’t know the first thing about God even if He started raining frogs and hail upon the UN at this very moment.
Liberal Christianity my ***. If that’s Christianity, what the hell is this? And this? And this? Or what about this? Do any of these things seem “liberal” or “conservative” to you? If they do, you need to have your head examined.
Liberal Christianity my ***. If that’s Christianity, what the hell is this? And this? And this? Or what about this? Do any of these things seem “liberal” or “conservative” to you? If they do, you need to have your head examined.
J
JRKH
Guest
Amen - as I was reading the latest entries I started thinking the same thing…It seems that everyone is talking and no one is listening.
The only thing “liberal” or “conservative” about Christianity is this. Christianity need sot be liberally (widely) proclaimed so as to conserve as many souls as possible for heaven.
This cannot be done by changing the message of the Gospel which has been preached from the beginning. To do that is self defeating pure and simple.
Peace
James
P
Publisher
Guest
Truth is the issue for those of us who embrace a “liberal” view of Christian belief. We are not seeking “miracles” of “signs and wonders” to bolster up our faith…we are seeking God and using the tools we feel should guide everyone…IF a conservative “miracle” driven faith is what brings some of you to God…wonderful…but for those of us who have found “liberal” Christianity to answer some of our deepest and profound longings…why wwould we need to be “saved” by “conservatism”…it is God thru Christ that saves us…“conservative” or “liberal”…
What I have found is an openness to explore and question and seek Answers that “conservative” Christianity just seems to say…“it’s a miracle”…“the chuch says thus and thus so I must accept it”…“the Bible says…”…none of those phrases offers any consolation of deep spiritual insight for me…BUT through what many of you are calling “liberal”…while not all of my questions have been answered…I now am on a Journey of Discovery…a Discovery of Truth that shapes and enriches my life.
It’s not for everyone…not everyone is comfortable with the Search instead of embracing “answers” that make no sense in “real world” life situations.
P
pharos369
Guest
P
pharos369
Guest
IMHO,Liberal Christianity will eventually be relegated to the dustbin of history. For a lie does not survive when Truth is there to refute it.
I feel it is our duty,especially Catholics(One of the corporal works of Mercy), to correct those who mishear the words of Jesus. What’s worse, to tell someone, with love, that they need to rethink thier position on something, Or instead to smile & pat them on the back & send them on thier way, letting them continue in error? Don’t you think the Christian thing to do is to help those who are misguided,instead of affirming error?
Liberal theology is rift w/ error and is dangerous for the begiinig Christian. Most Liberal Christians I know want only to speak of a kind and gental Jesus( the hippie,love&peace Jesus,is what our priest called this thinking), but what thay forget is that Our Lord could also be stern when it came to those who try and twist Truth.
I feel it is our duty,especially Catholics(One of the corporal works of Mercy), to correct those who mishear the words of Jesus. What’s worse, to tell someone, with love, that they need to rethink thier position on something, Or instead to smile & pat them on the back & send them on thier way, letting them continue in error? Don’t you think the Christian thing to do is to help those who are misguided,instead of affirming error?
Liberal theology is rift w/ error and is dangerous for the begiinig Christian. Most Liberal Christians I know want only to speak of a kind and gental Jesus( the hippie,love&peace Jesus,is what our priest called this thinking), but what thay forget is that Our Lord could also be stern when it came to those who try and twist Truth.
S
sllhouette
Guest
We absolutely do not want any individual to be excluded. But we absolutely want to exclude any ideas that are contrary to Truth from being proclaimed by the Church.
P
pharos369
Guest
F
ForeverGrace
Guest
The Episcopals have brought upon themselves their own demise by treating scripture like a fairy tale. It’s likely they will NEVER recover. Mostly what is left is the fighting over the real estate. When John Shelby Spong declared the Apostle Paul to be gay, I knew the Episcopal church was anathema. Sad, because I have some very close friends who have tried to hang in, hoping things would get better. They only got worse.
There are liberals all over Christianity, in fact, the Catholics have their own liberal factions.
I personally find it to be the result of rebellion towards God. We don’t like the rules so like petulant children we disobey.
I’m a reformed Christian and we are probably too far to the conservative side, but on this, I’d rather error in a way that pleases God.
There are liberals all over Christianity, in fact, the Catholics have their own liberal factions.
I personally find it to be the result of rebellion towards God. We don’t like the rules so like petulant children we disobey.
I’m a reformed Christian and we are probably too far to the conservative side, but on this, I’d rather error in a way that pleases God.
C
CMatt25
Guest
You speak true words here, Publisher. Episcopalian, Roman Cathlolic, or Friend… Indeed all people of faith… liberal, conservative, or somewhere inbetween… each of us are on a walk in faith, searching the ultimate Truth while seeking to make sense of life’s journey along our way. God bless you Friend for expressing this so eloquently and so clearly. May kindness and humility remain with you on your life’s journey, and forever His love and peace be with your spirit.Truth is the issue for those of us who embrace a “liberal” view of Christian belief. We are not seeking “miracles” of “signs and wonders” to bolster up our faith…we are seeking God and using the tools we feel should guide everyone…IF a conservative “miracle” driven faith is what brings some of you to God…wonderful…but for those of us who have found “liberal” Christianity to answer some of our deepest and profound longings…why wwould we need to be “saved” by “conservatism”…it is God thru Christ that saves us…“conservative” or “liberal”…
What I have found is an openness to explore and question and seek Answers that “conservative” Christianity just seems to say…“it’s a miracle”…“the chuch says thus and thus so I must accept it”…“the Bible says…”…none of those phrases offers any consolation of deep spiritual insight for me…BUT through what many of you are calling “liberal”…while not all of my questions have been answered…I now am on a Journey of Discovery…a Discovery of Truth that shapes and enriches my life.
It’s not for everyone…not everyone is comfortable with the Search instead of embracing “answers” that make no sense in “real world” life situations.
L
LisaA
Guest
I’ve read a flurry of columns lately, regarding liberal Christianity circling the darin. Most point to the Episcopal Church and its ever decreasing numbers and influence. The faith of our Presidents seems to have lost its luster.
I’ve heard the writer interviewed numerous times regarding his book “Bad Religion” on how we’ve turned into a nation of heretics. He points not only to dwindling church attendance but also the seeming war with any public practice of Christianity as evidence. Both this book and another I read during my conversion process “Exodus Why Americans are Fleeing Liberal Churches,” point to the fatal flaw as these mainline denominations evolve from a place for salvation to just another social organization focused on the cause celebre of the day. What our Christian faith offers us is unique, the opportunity for salvation by grace. What many liberal churches offer is anything BUT discussions of Scripture, standards of behavior, even good old fashioned talk of sin and redemption. Instead it’s ‘entertainment’ self help, some social cause. At that point church just becomes another option for engaging in the same activity by organizations and entities that do a lot better job. Hence it’s loss of relevance in our lives.
I attended (pre Catholicism) a four year spiritual direction course along with numerous talks, and workshops, and services at our region’sEpiscopal Cathedral. Nice people, well meaning but you never got the impression that there was any foundation to their faith. When they elevated the divorced homosexual with substance abuse problems as their Bishop followed by the female “not sure if there really is a God and Jesus was a cool dude but not necessarily of Divine nature” I knew the church had left the reservation for good.
BTW they featured many Catholic speakers, all what I’d call non-traditional in outlook. Dismay over our not wanting female “priests,” blessing of homosexual unions, or why can’t the Catholic Church be more like the Episcopal Church. I think the question has been answered.
Lisa
I’ve heard the writer interviewed numerous times regarding his book “Bad Religion” on how we’ve turned into a nation of heretics. He points not only to dwindling church attendance but also the seeming war with any public practice of Christianity as evidence. Both this book and another I read during my conversion process “Exodus Why Americans are Fleeing Liberal Churches,” point to the fatal flaw as these mainline denominations evolve from a place for salvation to just another social organization focused on the cause celebre of the day. What our Christian faith offers us is unique, the opportunity for salvation by grace. What many liberal churches offer is anything BUT discussions of Scripture, standards of behavior, even good old fashioned talk of sin and redemption. Instead it’s ‘entertainment’ self help, some social cause. At that point church just becomes another option for engaging in the same activity by organizations and entities that do a lot better job. Hence it’s loss of relevance in our lives.
I attended (pre Catholicism) a four year spiritual direction course along with numerous talks, and workshops, and services at our region’sEpiscopal Cathedral. Nice people, well meaning but you never got the impression that there was any foundation to their faith. When they elevated the divorced homosexual with substance abuse problems as their Bishop followed by the female “not sure if there really is a God and Jesus was a cool dude but not necessarily of Divine nature” I knew the church had left the reservation for good.
BTW they featured many Catholic speakers, all what I’d call non-traditional in outlook. Dismay over our not wanting female “priests,” blessing of homosexual unions, or why can’t the Catholic Church be more like the Episcopal Church. I think the question has been answered.
Lisa
I
Izdaari
Guest
I know that last part (“In the last decade, average Sunday attendance dropped 23 percent, and not a single Episcopal diocese in the country saw churchgoing increase.”) isn’t entirely true.
My Episcopal parish, though small, has been growing steadily, from a 5 member house church 10 years ago to 150 members in a cool old historic church building, with an average age of 27. And this is in one of the most unchurched neighborhoods (Fremont) in one of the most unchurched cities (Seattle) in the US. We are “emerging” Anglo-Catholic with Benedictine influence. Liberal? I suppose, but still orthodox, not like Spong.
So while TEC may be declining overall, it’s very possible to buck the trend… and not even that hard, if you try.
I
Izdaari
Guest
Liberal Christianity isn’t all one thing. Some liberal Christians are heretical, even apostate, and I don’t condone that. But some are orthodox. I belong to an orthodox liberal church, and that’s fine with me, though I’m more conservative (in an N.T. Wright kind of way), because it is orthodox.
- Status