Can Liberal Christianity Be Saved?

[SteveVH]

Well at least I now know I’m not the only one who can flawly conclude.

I’m not responding here because Lisa needs any help. But I’m just curious, CMatt, do you honestly believe that the killing of an unborn child is a woman’s private issue, and even a “right”, and that the unborn child should not possess any rights? You seem to avoid speaking to the real issue here.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, you don’t have to be sorry to me for what you believe and for what you believe is His will. It’s what you believe. God bless you in your walk of faith.

I am not at all sorry for what I believe. But what I believe is not what is at issue. The issue comes down to what God said we must believe. Again, rather than address the real issue you seem to prefer bumper sticker statements that are of little substance.

 

[gmcbroom]

SteveVH,
Liberal Christianity/Theology, is something rather unique. Its not bound by a set belief structure but rather fluid. Its not dependant upon any one creed or dogma to define or guide it. As such liberal christians most likely see Christ through the eyes of the culture in which they live. Now depending on where one lives the laws may allow or have allowed certain practices such as abortion or (same sex marriage in certain states), The United States for example. Those exposed to this are understandably influenced by it. So its understandable that there may be friction when people of differing viewpoints meet. Those of any orthodox faith such as Catholism, Islam, Judaism; are guided by dogmas or creeds so tend to take a hard line approach when confronted with views they don’t share, modern or otherwise. The approach I take as a catholic when discussing topics with those of a liberal persuasion or any other is one of charity and love. I try to find some common ground, In this case, a belief in God, and work from there. Will that guaranty success no. But’s a start. It’s never wise to throw out an ad hominum attack, in a friendly discussion. Now in the United States abortion is legal. Morally right no, but legal non the less. Though there are liberal christians that are Pro Choice or for same sex marriage, Not all of them are.

Remember Luke 9:37-56.

Peace be with you.

PS-In the past I was very judgemental. I have since remembered that I am a sinner. I still have a big plank in my eye, however, I’m trying hard not to hit the wall or anyone else with it. LOL

 

[CMatt25]

I’m not responding here because Lisa needs any help. But I’m just curious, CMatt, do you honestly believe that the killing of an unborn child is a woman’s private issue, and even a “right”, and that the unborn child should not possess any rights? You seem to avoid speaking to the real issue here.

Steve, what I believe is we unfortunately don’t live in a perfect world yet and I believe the issue deals with conflicting rights. The rights of the unborn vs the rights of women. And I don’t always believe things are as black and white as Catholics and other conservatives may like to think and believe they are. Not only on the abortion issue but on other issues such as stem cells and homosexuality too.

I see gray on a lot of things in life and I understand various POV. I understand your POV. But on the choice issue, those gray areas include for me when the mother’s own health and life are in danger, when she is forcibly raped, and yes I honestly can not automatically reject outright some possible legal privacy rights in this area if she does not believe an embryo is a human with personhood rights. Let alone if she does not believe as you and Lisa and I personally believe that human life begins at the moment of conception, and that because of our belief, Lisa, nor you or I if we were of Lisa’s gender, would not choose to abort a pregnancy. I understand everyone is not you or Lisa or I.

And on this issue, I’m not talking slavery or the Holocaust as Catholics and other anti choice people like to mix in, but on this particular issue that is just where I am at after yrs of praying and strugglng with it. So I’m not going to make any apologies for it. I just know I live in a society of plural beliefs and on this issue my conscience has not been persuaded to fully force my beliefs onto women who believe differently.

I believe society has tried in good faith to balance these conflicting rights. It’s a tough balancing act to be sure. But nearly 40 yrs ago now since it became the law of the land, I believe Roe attempted to strike a balance with the first trimester and then with some restrictions allowed. I personally have had a chance to vote on parental notification. And after prayer and consideration, I did vote for the restriction of parental notification as long as there was a possible “out” before a court judge for those who feared abuse by their parents if their parents were notified.

I know you don’t share my POV and maybe hardly anyone on this forum does. And I won’t be surprised if the full arsenal of attack now falls upon me. It wouldn’t be the first time. But I have tried in good faith to sincerely and honestly and charitably explain my view and I hope it has helped your curiosity.

In any case I believe God understands the dilemma living in a secular society of plural beliefs can present to me. And most importantly to me I believe He knows my heart.

God bless and peace.

 

[Publisher]

Steve, what I believe is we unfortunately don’t live in a perfect world yet and I believe the issue deals with conflicting rights. The rights of the unborn vs the rights of women. And I don’t always believe things are as black and white as Catholics and other conservatives may like to think and believe they are. Not only on the abortion issue but on other issues such as stem cells and homosexuality too.

I see gray on a lot of things in life and I understand various POV. I understand your POV. But on the choice issue, those gray areas include for me when the mother’s own health and life are in danger, when she is forcibly raped, and yes I honestly can not automatically reject outright some possible legal privacy rights in this area if she does not believe an embryo is a human with personhood rights. Let alone if she does not believe as you and Lisa and I personally believe that human life begins at the moment of conception, and that because of our belief, Lisa, nor you or I if we were of Lisa’s gender, would not choose to abort a pregnancy. I understand everyone is not you or Lisa or I.

And on this issue, I’m not talking slavery or the Holocaust as Catholics and other anti choice people like to mix in, but on this particular issue that is just where I am at after yrs of praying and strugglng with it. So I’m not going to make any apologies for it. I just know I live in a society of plural beliefs and on this issue my conscience has not been persuaded to fully force my beliefs onto women who believe differently.

I believe society has tried in good faith to balance these conflicting rights. It’s a tough balancing act to be sure. But nearly 40 yrs ago now since it became the law of the land, I believe Roe attempted to strike a balance with the first trimester and then with some restrictions allowed. I personally have had a chance to vote on parental notification. And after prayer and consideration, I did vote for the restriction of parental notification as long as there was a possible “out” before a court judge for those who feared abuse by their parents if their parents were notified.

I know you don’t share my POV and maybe hardly anyone on this forum does. And I won’t be surprised if the full arsenal of attack now falls upon me. It wouldn’t be the first time. But I have tried in good faith to sincerely and honestly and charitably explain my view and I hope it has helped your curiosity.

In any case I believe God understands the dilemma living in a secular society of plural beliefs can present to me. And most importantly to me I believe He knows my heart.

God bless and peace.

You said it very well friend. I do not BELIEVE in abortion with the caveat of rape, incest, or the health of the mother…but even then I have issue with it.

My struggle with abortion centers in my belief in the sacredness of life and the sacredness of making our own choices of what we do with our own bodies. I have issue with the mindset that if a young teen girl gets pregnant…she is somehow “punished” by being forced to have the child…her mistake now places her in the position of an “incubator” with no right of choice on how she choses to deal with her own body’s issues of pregancy.

So many times well meaning Christians seem to think…“Well, if she didn’t want the responsibility of a child, she should have made better choices.”…it’s great that she has the responsibility of choice THEN…but not NOW…it still is her body…the embryo/fetus growning insider of HER womb is AFFECTING HER BODY…not mine…not yours…it is HER BODY and while I believe in the sacredness of life…I also believe in the sacredness of making our own determination of what to do with our lives AND what to do with our own bodies.

Life is not black and white…but many many shades of grey…and while my sensibilites on what is right and wrong may be certain for my own life…I find I am not in the position to know with the same certainty what this young woman is dealing with…at some point I MUST ALLOW HER THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE FOR HERSELF how to get thru this life…

I lost a child less than a half hour after he was born…once we found out my wife was pregnant the thought of terminating the pregnancy was never considered in our worst nightmares…and a short year later…she too was Called back to the Presence…not a day goes by that I don’t think “If only…”…but we can go crazy with “if onlys”.

My sister came to me when she was 16 and told me she was pregant and was so frightened…she felt her whole life was over and her choices crushed…she chose to terminate her pregancy…she asked me would I drive her to Planned Parenthood…she would drive herself…but she wasn’t sure how she’d feel afterwards if she would be in any condition to drive…PP was 3 hours from where we lived…I struggled…I prayed…I cried with her as we drove to PP in those hours…I went in with her to check her in…I waited in the car and in 30 mins she came out pale and sick of heart…she slept on the way home…I helped her into bed as she stayed with me for a few days…I nursed her…fed her…that was 25 years ago…now she is a mother of two wonderful children…with a loving husband of 18 years…she doesn’t regret her decision as she was able to finish college with a master’s in psychology…I may not have agreed with her decision…but it was not mine to make…IT WAS HERS…and I realized this was not a perfect world almost a decade before my trip with her to PP as I laid my wife to rest…life is seldom clean and tidy.

 

[CMatt25]

SteveVH,
Liberal Christianity/Theology, is something rather unique. Its not bound by a set belief structure but rather fluid. Its not dependant upon any one creed or dogma to define or guide it. As such liberal christians most likely see Christ through the eyes of the culture in which they live. Now depending on where one lives the laws may allow or have allowed certain practices such as abortion or (same sex marriage in certain states), The United States for example. Those exposed to this are understandably influenced by it. So its understandable that there may be friction when people of differing viewpoints meet. Those of any orthodox faith such as Catholism, Islam, Judaism; are guided by dogmas or creeds so tend to take a hard line approach when confronted with views they don’t share, modern or otherwise. The approach I take as a catholic when discussing topics with those of a liberal persuasion or any other is one of charity and love. I try to find some common ground, In this case, a belief in God, and work from there. Will that guaranty success no. But’s a start. It’s never wise to throw out an ad hominum attack, in a friendly discussion. Now in the United States abortion is legal. Morally right no, but legal non the less. Though there are liberal christians that are Pro Choice or for same sex marriage, Not all of them are.

Remember Luke 9:37-56.

Peace be with you.

PS-In the past I was very judgemental. I have since remembered that I am a sinner. I still have a big plank in my eye, however, I’m trying hard not to hit the wall or anyone else with it. LOL

I think liberal Christians see the human finite mind’s understanding of Christ and God’s will as something ever further growing. Not related only to culture but as humankind experiences life over the course of time and even perhaps as more knowledge is uncovered.

I’m not sure ours paths have crossed and I have no idea where you suddenly appeared from. But I just wanted to say this was a nice charitable post by a Catholic. I have to confess I find posts like yours somewhat rare but thank you for it.

Common ground is not a bad place even if doesn’t lead to full agreement on every issue.

On some of these issues or where to place our emphasis we may never agree on in this life. But even on something like abortion, while we may never agree on safe and legal, I do believe we share some common ground on seeing them rarer. How we go about that we may differ on, but it’s better than nothing.

But in any case we as Christians I believe are united in the One most important of all, Christ as Lord and Savior. It is He who breaks down walls and unites us each one of us.

God bless you along your walk of faith. And peace be with you always.

Your brother in Christ,

CMatt25

 

[Trebor135]

I think maybe you meant to say you don’t have the slightest interest in anyone’s sex life until it comes to a woman’s right to privacy, her right to choose, and her right to have contraception coverage mandated in her employer health care coverage.

The right of a mother to “choose” what–the slaughter of her innocent child?

 

[Publisher]

The right of a mother to “choose” what–the slaughter of her innocent child?

No, the right to choose how to deal with her own life and how to treat her body as her own…might not be a great choice…BUT IT IS HER SACRED CHOICE TO MAKE…IT IS HER BODY and it is she that must live with the consequences.

Before anyone goes off half cocked and “puts words” into this post that was not made…the SACRED is her choice as a person that has free will…not that the termination of her pregancy is sacred…BUT HER CHOICE TO BE SELF DETERMINATE over her life and body.

LIfe rarely has “black and white” circumstances…most are shades of grey…if free choice wasn’t sacred and a gift from God…life might be “black and white”…but it’s not…and never will be This Side.

 

[LisaA]

No, the right to choose how to deal with her own life and how to treat her body as her own…might not be a great choice…BUT IT IS HER SACRED CHOICE TO MAKE…IT IS HER BODY and it is she that must live with the consequences.

Before anyone goes off half cocked and “puts words” into this post that was not made…the SACRED is her choice as a person that has free will…not that the termination of her pregancy is sacred…BUT HER CHOICE TO BE SELF DETERMINATE over her life and body.

LIfe rarely has “black and white” circumstances…most are shades of grey…if free choice wasn’t sacred and a gift from God…life might be “black and white”…but it’s not…and never will be This Side.

Publisher, you and CMatt cannot seem to distinguish between two separate and individual persons. The baby inside a woman is NOT part of her body, does not share her genetic make up and is not a blob of tissue to be discarded.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the comment she has to LIVE with the consequences. That’s the point. SHE LIVES. The baby dies.

Why do you not distinguish between the two persons?

Lisa

 

[CMatt25]

You said it very well friend. I do not BELIEVE in abortion with the caveat of rape, incest, or the health of the mother…but even then I have issue with it.

My struggle with abortion centers in my belief in the sacredness of life and the sacredness of making our own choices of what we do with our own bodies. I have issue with the mindset that if a young teen girl gets pregnant…she is somehow “punished” by being forced to have the child…her mistake now places her in the position of an “incubator” with no right of choice on how she choses to deal with her own body’s issues of pregancy.

So many times well meaning Christians seem to think…“Well, if she didn’t want the responsibility of a child, she should have made better choices.”…it’s great that she has the responsibility of choice THEN…but not NOW…it still is her body…the embryo/fetus growning insider of HER womb is AFFECTING HER BODY…not mine…not yours…it is HER BODY and while I believe in the sacredness of life…I also believe in the sacredness of making our own determination of what to do with our lives AND what to do with our own bodies.

Life is not black and white…but many many shades of grey…and while my sensibilites on what is right and wrong may be certain for my own life…I find I am not in the position to know with the same certainty what this young woman is dealing with…at some point I MUST ALLOW HER THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE FOR HERSELF how to get thru this life…

I lost a child less than a half hour after he was born…once we found out my wife was pregnant the thought of terminating the pregnancy was never considered in our worst nightmares…and a short year later…she too was Called back to the Presence…not a day goes by that I don’t think “If only…”…but we can go crazy with “if onlys”.

My sister came to me when she was 16 and told me she was pregant and was so frightened…she felt her whole life was over and her choices crushed…she chose to terminate her pregancy…she asked me would I drive her to Planned Parenthood…she would drive herself…but she wasn’t sure how she’d feel afterwards if she would be in any condition to drive…PP was 3 hours from where we lived…I struggled…I prayed…I cried with her as we drove to PP in those hours…I went in with her to check her in…I waited in the car and in 30 mins she came out pale and sick of heart…she slept on the way home…I helped her into bed as she stayed with me for a few days…I nursed her…fed her…that was 25 years ago…now she is a mother of two wonderful children…with a loving husband of 18 years…she doesn’t regret her decision as she was able to finish college with a master’s in psychology…I may not have agreed with her decision…but it was not mine to make…IT WAS HERS…and I realized this was not a perfect world almost a decade before my trip with her to PP as I laid my wife to rest…life is seldom clean and tidy.

Thank you Publisher. And thank you for sharing. As I was sitting here reading your story my heart went out to both you for the loss of your child and wife in such a short time and for your sister. I can not imagine what it must have been like for your sister to be so frightened and crushed and I can not begin to imagine what it must have been like to walk in her shoes. Nor is it my place to think I can.

But what a blessing she had in her brother to be there for her in her time of need. To make sure she was not alone. To pray for her. To nurse her. To feed her. And not to judge her. Love, compassion, a helping hand, a hand to hold and arms to hug her, were what she needed to get through that time in her life and not condemnation and judgment of her decision I am certain. I’ve no doubt she is forever grateful to you for being there for her during such a difficult point in her life. God bless you and her and her family and I pray continued peace for you both.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
Liberal Christianity/Theology, is something rather unique. Its not bound by a set belief structure but rather fluid. Its not dependant upon any one creed or dogma to define or guide it. As such liberal christians most likely see Christ through the eyes of the culture in which they live. Now depending on where one lives the laws may allow or have allowed certain practices such as abortion or (same sex marriage in certain states), The United States for example. Those exposed to this are understandably influenced by it. So its understandable that there may be friction when people of differing viewpoints meet. Those of any orthodox faith such as Catholism, Islam, Judaism; are guided by dogmas or creeds so tend to take a hard line approach when confronted with views they don’t share, modern or otherwise. The approach I take as a catholic when discussing topics with those of a liberal persuasion or any other is one of charity and love. I try to find some common ground, In this case, a belief in God, and work from there. Will that guaranty success no. But’s a start. It’s never wise to throw out an ad hominum attack, in a friendly discussion. Now in the United States abortion is legal. Morally right no, but legal non the less. Though there are liberal christians that are Pro Choice or for same sex marriage, Not all of them are.

Remember Luke 9:37-56.

Peace be with you.

PS-In the past I was very judgemental. I have since remembered that I am a sinner. I still have a big plank in my eye, however, I’m trying hard not to hit the wall or anyone else with it. LOL

Thanks for straightening me out.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, what I believe is we unfortunately don’t live in a perfect world yet and I believe the issue deals with conflicting rights. The rights of the unborn vs the rights of women. And I don’t always believe things are as black and white as Catholics and other conservatives may like to think and believe they are. Not only on the abortion issue but on other issues such as stem cells and homosexuality too.

I see gray on a lot of things in life and I understand various POV. I understand your POV. But on the choice issue, those gray areas include for me when the mother’s own health and life are in danger, when she is forcibly raped, and yes I honestly can not automatically reject outright some possible legal privacy rights in this area if she does not believe an embryo is a human with personhood rights. Let alone if she does not believe as you and Lisa and I personally believe that human life begins at the moment of conception, and that because of our belief, Lisa, nor you or I if we were of Lisa’s gender, would not choose to abort a pregnancy. I understand everyone is not you or Lisa or I.

And on this issue, I’m not talking slavery or the Holocaust as Catholics and other anti choice people like to mix in, but on this particular issue that is just where I am at after yrs of praying and strugglng with it. So I’m not going to make any apologies for it. I just know I live in a society of plural beliefs and on this issue my conscience has not been persuaded to fully force my beliefs onto women who believe differently.

I believe society has tried in good faith to balance these conflicting rights. It’s a tough balancing act to be sure. But nearly 40 yrs ago now since it became the law of the land, I believe Roe attempted to strike a balance with the first trimester and then with some restrictions allowed. I personally have had a chance to vote on parental notification. And after prayer and consideration, I did vote for the restriction of parental notification as long as there was a possible “out” before a court judge for those who feared abuse by their parents if their parents were notified.

I know you don’t share my POV and maybe hardly anyone on this forum does. And I won’t be surprised if the full arsenal of attack now falls upon me. It wouldn’t be the first time. But I have tried in good faith to sincerely and honestly and charitably explain my view and I hope it has helped your curiosity.

In any case I believe God understands the dilemma living in a secular society of plural beliefs can present to me. And most importantly to me I believe He knows my heart.

God bless and peace.

Thanks for your honesty. You are correct that I don’t share your point of view. I see no grey areas when it come to the issue of killing the most innocent and defensless in our society. It is an inherent evil. That doesn’t mean that I am not aware of the thousands upon thousands of stories of young girls making the wrong decision and the anguish and fear that drives many of them to abort their children. We must show unconditional love to these women, but at the same time we must inform them that there are other options out there. Killing the precious (and always innocent) life inside her is not an option. Killing an innocent person should never be a right.

God bless.

 

[Trebor135]

Publisher, you and CMatt cannot seem to distinguish between two separate and individual persons. The baby inside a woman is NOT part of her body, does not share her genetic make up and is not a blob of tissue to be discarded.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the comment she has to LIVE with the consequences. That’s the point. SHE LIVES. The baby dies.

Why do you not distinguish between the two persons?

Lisa

Said it better than I could have.

 

[CMatt25]

Publisher, you and CMatt cannot seem to distinguish between two separate and individual persons. The baby inside a woman is NOT part of her body, does not share her genetic make up and is not a blob of tissue to be discarded.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the comment she has to LIVE with the consequences. That’s the point. SHE LIVES. The baby dies.

Why do you not distinguish between the two persons?

Lisa

Lets see where do I begin correcting this post. I’m not sure why I’m even bothering because it doesn’t appear you’re actually reading what Publisher and I actually say and we’re not going to solve anything here anyway. But if you go back and actually read what I wrote, I had already said if I could get pregnant I would not exercise the legal choice I would have to abort for the same reason you wouldn’t. So that clears up your flawed conclusion about me. Ok that was easy enough. It helps when I can speak for myself.

Now then I see right after Publisher said “Before anyone goes off half cocked and puts words into this post that was not made”, here you came along Lisa and you put words into his post that were not made.

I think maybe you need to reread Publisher’s actual words.

He spoke of God’s sacred gift of free will. But then he specifically made it clear to everyone that he was not saying it was sacred to terminate a pregnancy. If he wasn’t saying it is sacred to terminate, I’m thinking he must have a reason for this and distinguishes something. In an earlier post he had already spoken of his belief in the sacredness of life.

But it seems Publisher is also able to distinguish parts of the human body and understands the uterus is part of the woman’s body. Maybe he believes too the embryo/fetus for at least a time is not viable if apart from the woman’s body.

But in any case the bottom line is it seems the only place I and perhaps Publisher, I can’t speak for him, might depart from you Lisa is on the free will part of the equation being a legal choice when it comes to this particular issue. I wouldn’t abort if I could get pregnant. You wouldnt abort. And just like you and I, Lisa, Publisher has said he too distinguishes life is sacred.

So see had you read what we had already written, there would have been no reason for you to come along and ask why we can not distinguish.

I’m not going to go 'round and 'round with you on this because again this is one of those issues we may have to simply agree to disagree on. And me being a liberal, I’m pretty ok with that. But I hope this helped.

 

[Elizabeth502]

We must show unconditional love to these women, but at the same time we must inform them that there are other options out there.

And the best option is to provide that counseling prior to conception. The best option is to discourage fornication, given the risk of producing life, and the subsequent risk that a decision to abort will be considered, and then exercised. Those who marry abort rarely. The unmarried (rich and poor, those who use contraception and those who don’t, and all ages) are the highest category of women who abort.

The insufficiency of Catholic ministry to teens of all faiths is an accident waiting to happen, after which time counseling becomes a crisis and results have not been good, percentage wise.

 

[SteveVH]

And the best option is to provide that counseling prior to conception. The best option is to discourage fornication, given the risk of producing life, and the subsequent risk that a decision to abort will be considered, and then exercised. Those who marry abort rarely. The unmarried (rich and poor, those who use contraception and those who don’t, and all ages) are the highest category of women who abort.

The insufficiency of Catholic ministry to teens of all faiths is an accident waiting to happen, after which time counseling becomes a crisis and results have not been good, percentage wise.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, you and CMatt cannot seem to distinguish between two separate and individual persons. The baby inside a woman is NOT part of her body, does not share her genetic make up and is not a blob of tissue to be discarded.

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at the comment she has to LIVE with the consequences. That’s the point. SHE LIVES. The baby dies.

Why do you not distinguish between the two persons?

Lisa

I’m not sure why you ask the question you asked…either you didn’t read what I wrote…or you exercise your sacred gift of free will and chose to ignore what it written:shrug:

I do realize the complexities of life often cause us to make decisions for our lives that are extremely difficult…and I am grateful that I will never have to make the decision some of these women feel and believe they are “forced” by life’s circumstances to make.

I am grateful for God’s mercy and grace…for each one of us is in great need of it.

I wonder sometimes how any of us would fare to be judged by the standards WE put on others yet so easily discard for ourselves…maybe one day…we’ll find out.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The baby inside a woman is NOT part of her body, does not share her genetic make up and is not a blob of tissue to be discarded.

Lisa, did you mean that the baby’s genetic makeup is not identical with its mother’s? (The new life does share in the mother’s genetic makeup, certainly. Just not exclusively. The DNA is unique.)

As to the perennial point brought up by others that it’s all the mother’s agonizing decision, it
(a) should be only half her decision; the fact that the life is growing in her body is simply a function of biology; she’s the incubator; she does not “own” either the child or the decision more than the co-equal sperm donor does, merely because the child is growing inside her instead of inside the sperm donor. However, most of the time the sperm donor conveniently leaves the scene because he can. It doesn’t mean he is less morally responsible for the decision unless he has committed to raise and fund the child with her or apart from her (which is rare).

(b) was a de facto decision on the part of both partners when the decision was made to engage in sexual activity. Unless one is surgically or otherwise sterile, one makes a decision to commit to consequences when one engages in sex. Both parties.

 

[LisaA]

I’m not sure why you ask the question you asked…either you didn’t read what I wrote…or you exercise your sacred gift of free will and chose to ignore what it written:shrug:

I do realize the complexities of life often cause us to make decisions for our lives that are extremely difficult…and I am grateful that I will never have to make the decision some of these women feel and believe they are “forced” by life’s circumstances to make.

I am grateful for God’s mercy and grace…for each one of us is in great need of it.

I wonder sometimes how any of us would fare to be judged by the standards WE put on others yet so easily discard for ourselves…maybe one day…we’ll find out.

Publisher you and CMatt claim I didn’t read what you wrote. Rather than write two posts repeating myself, I must just point out that you both dodge the essential question. Are two lives involved or is one life involved when a woman terminates a pregnancy?

Will you please answer?

I believe you are both sincere in saying were you female you would not abort your child. But that is a specious and pointless and frankly silly argument. If pigs could fly we should all wear wide brimmed hats.

I believe that the decision to abort, in some cases IS difficult. But sadly because of the attitude that aborting is “a choice” or as you constantly refer to it “free will” and because it is so easily to access, so antiseptic, and so free of societal guilt, quite honestly for a lot of women it is birth control. Look at the statistics for multiple abortions.

As Elizabeth said, the time to counsel is BEFORE the woman engages in sexual activity because there is always the chance of conceiving. Once she conceives there are in fact three lives involved, the mother, the father and most importantly the baby.

It is not exercising free will to murder a born child is it? Why Publisher do you distinguish between the two situations?

I suspect that I won’t get answers to my actual questions, instead just more airy language about choices and freedom and God’s grace.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Lisa, did you mean that the baby’s genetic makeup is not identical with its mother’s? (The new life does share in the mother’s genetic makeup, certainly. Just not exclusively. The DNA is unique.)

As to the perennial point brought up by others that it’s all the mother’s agonizing decision, it
(a) should be only half her decision; the fact that the life is growing in her body is simply a function of biology; she’s the incubator; she does not “own” either the child or the decision more than the co-equal sperm donor does, merely because the child is growing inside her instead of inside the sperm donor. However, most of the time the sperm donor conveniently leaves the scene because he can. It doesn’t mean he is less morally responsible for the decision unless he has committed to raise and fund the child with her or apart from her (which is rare).

(b) was a de facto decision on the part of both partners when the decision was made to engage in sexual activity. Unless one is surgically or otherwise sterile, one makes a decision to commit to consequences when one engages in sex. Both parties.

Elizabeth yes thank you for clarifying. I re-read the post and realized it could be confusing. The “a woman has the right to do with her body as she pleases” argument is so often used when the genetic make up of the child is NOT identical to the woman. Half of her DNA disappears forever as does half of the man’s DNA. The child is a unique, “fearfully and wonderfully made.”

Also appreciate your pointing out the role of the man and his responsibility. Again our society has made sex and the related consequences such a minor issue that the man can feel free to leave the scene or if he’s feeling especially generous offer to pay for the abortion. It is a really unfortunate consequence of the 60s I think and has been a lose/lose result for all involved.

Lisa