Can liberals be good Catholics?

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You had George Bush in office for two terms and what did he do to promote the pro-life movement?
At least he had the Mexico City policy and supported faith-based initiatives to alleviate poverty. I believe PP funding was much better (I.E less or nonexistent) under Bush as well.

And this not including the HHS Mandate and other ways of funding abortions.

So more, way more, than Obama.
 
Yes they can,

But they would not only need to hold that abortion a fundamental violation of human rights, but so is same sex marriage. And that since a child has a fundamental right to a mother and a father, same sex adoption is also to be prohibited. As is the use of contraception.

I find very few liberals that hold the Catholic position on those intrinsic moral positions.
Tough subject…

I’m unaffiliated and left leaning and hold all of these values. I am against abortion, same sex marriage (although I don’t see how this is a fundamental violation of human rights as you assert, but I think it’s wrong), or use contraception (fairly sure this is an equal opportunity offense for lefties and righties though). I am also a top 2.5% earner in the US who works in excess of 60 hours a week.

My left leanings tend to focus on reforming our systems to close loop holes and eliminate biases that favor the wealthy and disadvantage the poor. I’m depart from traditional liberal thought in that I believe that there should be much more power at the State level and the Federal Gov’t is out of control under both Republican (see the Reagan and Bush years) and Democratic parties. For example, abortion should have never been a federal issue, nor should gay marriage be. I beg someone to convince me otherwise… because it is agonizing to watch… sometimes, I’d rather just be convinced.

I believe our economic, educational and healthcare systems should align to our fundamental values, which no informed, intellectually honest individual could argue exists today in the US. I believe our fundamental values should align with Catholic values insofar as the basic tenets of the faith (read 10 commandments, golden rule, what soever you do to the least of my brethren, etc.)… More simply put… they should align to what Jesus taught, but should be overreaching and legalistic.

In short, I’m Catholic before I’m political… I think it is absurd to think that a liberal is any less Catholic than a conservative.
 
Define liberalism. The Church has condemned classical liberalism and modern liberalism. So clarification is needed.
Some people think liberal means being against the death penalty, for unions, for a regulated market, for social insurance, against torture, and various other positions that a Catholic can legitimately hold (and some that a Catholic either must hold or it is desirable for them to hold). So if this is what liberal means, then there is no problem.

But classical liberalism, which is essentially unregulated capitalism economically and for the right to be in error on social issues, has been condemned. Modern liberalism, meaning the support for abortion, gay “marriage”, etc etc has also been condemned, along with the Welfare State and excessive debt. So if that is what is meant by “liberalism” then a Catholic can’t be a liberal.

That’s basically what I mean.
 
At least he had the Mexico City policy and supported faith-based initiatives to alleviate poverty. I believe PP funding was much better (I.E less or nonexistent) under Bush as well.

And this not including the HHS Mandate and other ways of funding abortions.

So more, way more, than Obama.
If you re-read my comment you will notice that I’m asking specifically what George Bush did to promote the pro-life movement?
 
You had George Bush in office for two terms and what did he do to promote the pro-life movement?
Appointing David Souter, one of the three Supreme Court Justices (together with Sandra day o’Connor and Anthony Kennedy, both appointed by Ronald Reagan) who we need to thank for upholding abortion as a right in the US. So yes abortion is legal in the USA thanks to pro life presidents.
 
If you re-read my comment you will notice that I’m asking specifically what George Bush did to promote the pro-life movement?
I don’t know about George but Laura Bush is a supporter of Planned Parenthood to provide one means of access to healthcare for poor women. I saw her on a TV program with the head of the organization.
 
At least he had the Mexico City policy and supported faith-based initiatives to alleviate poverty. I believe PP funding was much better (I.E less or nonexistent) under Bush as well.

And this not including the HHS Mandate and other ways of funding abortions.

So more, way more, than Obama.
Well yes, but Bush had in his hands, and he knew it, the opportunity to get Roe v. Wade overthrown and knowing he had the opportunity what he does is putting the guy that everybody knew was pro choice. How pro life is that. Again I wouldn’t vote for a pro choice but as I said, the reality is Obama never had and never will have the opportunity to make a radical change in abortion so whatever his beliefs are have zero effect on the pro life movement. In fact if we look objectively Obama was more helpful than Bush because he replaced two hardcore liberals with two in the middle leaning to liberals who have voted several times with the conservative blog. So I totally see their argument as a valid one.
 
Well yes, but Bush had in his hands, and he knew it, the opportunity to get Roe v. Wade overthrown and knowing he had the opportunity what he does is putting the guy that everybody knew was pro choice. How pro life is that. Again I wouldn’t vote for a pro choice but as I said, the reality is Obama never had and never will have the opportunity to make a radical change in abortion so whatever his beliefs are have zero effect on the pro life movement. In fact if we look objectively Obama was more helpful than Bush because he replaced two hardcore liberals with two in the middle leaning to liberals who have voted several times with the conservative blog. So I totally see their argument as a valid one.
Who are the two centrists that Obama appointed to the SCOTUS? Or do you mean his Cabinet?
 
Who are the two centrists that Obama appointed to the SCOTUS? Or do you mean his Cabinet?
John Paul Stevens who was one of the most radical liberal anti everything extremist justice that the Court has ever had (appointed by a Republican by the way) was replaced by Elena kagan who during the past term voted 60% with the conservative blog. She voted together with Roberts, alito and Thomas most significantly in the Miranda case, health care and the case of the baby shacken to death…all this probably while Stevens was dying from a heart attack cursing at Obama for naming her.

David Souter, the pro choice brought to us by Bush who we can thank for abortion, was replaced by sonia sotomayor who many liberals were against her because she had previously stated she didn’t agree with gay marriage. She didn’t voted as much with conservatives but she has voted a lot with the conservatives. And in fact half of the hopes of gay marriage NOT becoming legal are on her as she was together with Kennedy very skeptical. So in a few words, Obama downgraded the liberal level of the Court while Bush gave us abortion.
 
John Paul Stevens who was one of the most radical liberal anti everything extremist justice that the Court has ever had (appointed by a Republican by the way) was replaced by Elena kagan who during the past term voted 60% with the conservative blog. She voted together with Roberts, alito and Thomas most significantly in the Miranda case, health care and the case of the baby shacken to death…all this probably while Stevens was dying from a heart attack cursing at Obama for naming her.

David Souter, the pro choice brought to us by Bush who we can thank for abortion, was replaced by sonia sotomayor who many liberals were against her because she had previously stated she didn’t agree with gay marriage. She didn’t voted as much with conservatives but she has voted a lot with the conservatives. And in fact half of the hopes of gay marriage NOT becoming forced upon all the States are on her as she was together with Kennedy very skeptical. So in a few words, Obama downgraded the liberal level of the Court while Bush gave us abortion.
 
Is there room in this debate for a person who favors a gray area and not black/white on, say, the issue of abortion?

Church is against abortion because it favors human life, and a human life begins at conception and not, say, at quickening or birth. Okay, I can accept those ideas as worthy premises, but would then like to consider a premise that the state of the mother be considered equally or nearly so, with the fetus, or the right to potential life of the fetus.

The mother may be upset, conflicted, anxious, young, age 17, without economic, emotional, or moral support of family and boyfriend-partner-potential husband.

Or the mother might be mature age 40, pregnant while duly watching her fertile sings but due to age and that contraception usage is not an option, is unhappily pregnant anyway.
I.e., a situations that is difficult, and now made more problematic, by adding that this is a final sixth baby toward the end of her periods with an unsupportive husband who has been injured for years, is in chronic back pain, and living on SSI, The husband demands abortion, and mother is strongly opposed to giving birth to another child.

Perhaps Catholic support to mother, young or old, plus adoption is a solution, but suppose such alternatives are diligently explored and declined by the mother.

Can abortion be in such cases ever be considered to be acceptable, after much prayer, due to a lesser sin than the harm done to mother and others, using a utilitarian criteria to count the harms on each side? The Catholic Church answer – except for certain medical situations – is against abortion. The technique of using balance scales to judge is not available.

I would tend (the situation is hypothetical) to be liberal and favor a legal, medically performed abortion, given the known situation taken as a whole; but be spiritually sad and mournful for loss of potential life, hurt and in sorrow, examine one’s conscience over time, truly repent, request absolution from the parish priest, then attempt to heal and become an active church member and self-supporting citizen going forward.

Now, for taking such a position in an area that I consider morally gray, I am subject to ex-communication, because I tend not to believe fully, all that the CC teaches, with emphasis upon “all”.

Is this a correct conclusion? If so, then is not the Church’s answer doubly non-moral? As some might argue, who have left the Church (I have in mind, one of my phi professors).
 
You mean you don’t know??? :eek: Do your research. He will come to be known in History as the most Pro Life president to date.

See here lifenews.com/2008/04/18/nat-3879/
Are these things that George Bush did personally, or did they just happened to happen during his presidency? I’m especially skeptical here because as meltzerboy points out, Laura Bush is a supporter of Planned Parenthood!
 
Right…the 2 wars he started are so prolife…👍
Oh good grief… Now you switch to War issues? What smoke and mirrors is this?

However. Note this! If you feel Bush was just horrible, Why are you using Bush to justify a Obama’s Policies?

Two wrongs do not make a right. Period.

You don’t like the Republicans? Fine! I have issues with them too!

But please! let us be** real** about the magnitude of evil that the Liberal Left President, Obama is inflicting not only on the Pre Born, but Catholics and Civil Liberties as well!
 
Please remember that discussions of political parties or figures are not allowed in the Social Justice forum. Thank you for your cooperation.
 
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