Can Lucifer be saved?

[Beverly9157]

I’ve heard lots of conversations saying that there is no biblical plan for the saving of the fallen angels. But I wonder, if by some reason, Lucifer repented, do you think he would be admitted back to heaven?

And if he did (stay with me now), if he was once again in Gods graces, what would the world look like with evil gone? Would we revert to the garden of Eden, or do you think the world would change into a drastically different place?

I’ve always wondered this, and would love to hear what other people invision as I’m not sure what I myself think.

 

[1ke]

No, the fallen angels cannot be saved. Their choice was irrevocable, equivalent to humans who die in mortal sin. Hell is permanent.

See the Catechism section on the fallen angels.

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

 

[choy]

i can’t remember where i got this information, it could be entirely wrong. but someone told me some time ago or i read it somewhere some time ago that angels were made to serve God. since Lucifer decided to go entirely against his nature, he is beyond salvation

 

[bilop]

Negative.

Lucifer and the fallen angels had access to the beatific vision before they rebelled. They saw God as He is, and still chose evil. They can not repent.

God Bless

 

[Beverly9157]

But isn’t God a kind and forgiving god? wouldn’t God accept Lucifer if he came on bended knee? this is the image of God as I grew up, anybody, ultimatly could be saved if they repented.

And what about the second part of my question. A world were it happened, what would it be like. I know you may not agree, but just follow the question out to the conclusion. What is YOUR opinion of what a world were Lucifer was saved, be like.

I kind of think it would revert to the garden of Eden.

Respectfully
Beverly

 

[MikiBee]

Negative.

Lucifer and the fallen angels had access to the beatific vision before they rebelled. They saw God as He is, and still chose evil. They can not repent.

God Bless

I was always told that once one beholds God, sin is impossible. If the angels, who have seen God, can turn away-- how can I be assured I will not? I can say with all honesty, I want to be with God forever, and I haven’t even seen Him. However, if the angels were capable of turning away from the Beatific Vision, how can I be assured I will not? This scares me.

And if I do make it to heaven, which I so hope I do, will I still be capable of sin and cast away like the fallen angels? Or will God remove any chance of sin? And if He will, why didn’t He then for the angels?

It just scares me that if the angels could sin in the presence of the Beatific Vision, what is a mere human up against?

 

[Roman_Army]

The choice of the fallen Angels to reject God is permanent and irrevocable. Since the spiritual world is eternal it follows that all decisions are also eternal. Also, this decision has severely corrupted the very nature of the fallen angels so that all they desire is evil and it is impossible for them to have any desire for good. So, repentance is impossible for them even in their present eternal state in Hell.

 

[Beverly9157]

Is everything and every decision in the future preordained. Is Heaven and earth a stagnant realm where everything is decided already? How can we know the future mind of either the fallen angels or God? How can we know the future and what revelations God might have in mind for either us or them?

And again, I ask the question, what would the world be like without evil.

 

[1ke]

Is everything and every decision in the future preordained.

God and the angels are not in time, they are in eternity. There is not “future” in eternity. There is only present.

God does not preordain, but he does have perfect foreknowledge.

Is Heaven and earth a stagnant realm where everything is decided already?

Stagnant? No

Eternal? Yes

How can we know the future mind of either the fallen angels or God?

Neither have a “future mind.” You are thinking humanly. God and the angels are not humans.

As has been said, the angels’ choice is irrevocable, not because of a defect in God’s mercy but because of their nature and the nature of their choice.

How can we know the future and what revelations God might have in mind for either us or them?

There is no “future revelation” of God. For angels, they had immediate knowledge of God (although short of the Beatific Vision) since they are spiritual beings with only intellect and will. They cannot have anything more about God revealed to them.

Humans have had the fullness of revelation in the Person of Jesus Christ. There is no more revelation.

And again, I ask the question, what would the world be like without evil.

You are mistaken that there would be no evil if the fallen angels repented. Of course it is not possible for them to repent. But, in your hypothetical world, that would be irrelevant. Man has a fallen nature, and evil would still exist until the end of time. So, Lucifer is irrelevant.

 

[1ke]

I was always told that once one beholds God, sin is impossible. If the angels, who have seen God, can turn away-- how can I be assured I will not?

The Church does not teach that the angels were in the presence of God (Beatific Vision) before their fall. Their choice came before admittance to the Beatific Vision. They had direct knowledge of God through their intellect, but it was short of the Beatific Vision.

You are correct regarding the Beatific Vision in relation to alignment of our wills and sin.

 

[1ke]

But isn’t God a kind and forgiving god? wouldn’t God accept Lucifer if he came on bended knee? this is the image of God as I grew up, anybody, ultimatly could be saved if they repented.

Anybody-- that applies to people. Yes, anybody can be forgiven if they repent.

Angels are not “anybodies.” Angels are different from mankind in nature. And, because angel nature is different from human nature, their decision is different from that of our first parents. The decision of the angels, made in eternity, is irrevocable.

It is not a defect in God’s mercy, it is the nature of the angels and their decision, which make it irrevocable.

And what about the second part of my question. A world were it happened, what would it be like. I know you may not agree, but just follow the question out to the conclusion. What is YOUR opinion of what a world were Lucifer was saved, be like.

I kind of think it would revert to the garden of Eden.

Respectfully
Beverly

Beverly,

Speculation of this type must first be grounded is in solid teaching-- scripture, Church doctrine, sound theology. You seem to be making it up as you go along. No offense, but that is bad theology and I’m not sure I see the point. Your conclusions are based on wrong ideas about the nature of angels, mankind, and sin, and ultimately God. I don’t see where that gets you when you speculate-- except to wrong conclusions.

 

[MikiBee]

And if he did (stay with me now), if he was once again in Gods graces, what would the world look like with evil gone? Would we revert to the garden of Eden, or do you think the world would change into a drastically different place?

I’ve always wondered this, and would love to hear what other people invision as I’m not sure what I myself think.

Well, this is purely a question of speculation since Lucipher cannot repent. But since you asked “what if” I will tell you what I think it would be like, just for fun.

If it were possible that Lucipher and all of the fallen angels turned to God at this very moment, I don’t think the world would change much. Man already has it in his nature to sin because Lucipher did all those eons ago already. Lucipher is who tempted Adam and Eve to sin. That can’t be taken back, so men will always be sinners. However, I do think there would be less temptation and despair without all the demons sitting on our shoulders whispering lies into our ears. So over time, I would imagine the world would be a better place, but still very full of sin.

 

[carinapir]

I’ve heard lots of conversations saying that there is no biblical plan for the saving of the fallen angels. But I wonder, if by some reason, Lucifer repented, do you think he would be admitted back to heaven?

And if he did (stay with me now), if he was once again in Gods graces, what would the world look like with evil gone? Would we revert to the garden of Eden, or do you think the world would change into a drastically different place?

I’ve always wondered this, and would love to hear what other people invision as I’m not sure what I myself think.

Strangely, I’m not so much concerned about whether Lucifer can/would repent and be redeemed (I leave that in God’s hands and wouldn’t be surprised if it happened) as with your idea of Lucifer being the sole source of all evil. As other posters have said, humans made their choice and we now have to live with our fallen state. We can’t just sit back and blame Lucifer for everything. We continue to make choices daily and the wrong choices are mostly the result of our fallen nature, not because there are fallen angels whispering in our ears. That kind of thinking takes the responsibility for wrong doing completely out of our hands and that is not the reality.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Others have probably said it better, but here is the way I have understood it.

Angels are unlike us. Their intelligence is so enormous that, as one saint said, if we were to behold an angel as it truly is, we would be absolutely persuaded that it was God.

As I further understand it, their intellects and wills are a single thing; unlike us, who might want to do “X” but succumb to doing “Y”, then change our minds and do “X”. So, how angels see it is how they do it, every time.

As I understand it, there was a point (perhaps in time, perhaps not) when each angel had a full knowledge (not complete, because no one can know God completely or he would be God) of their choice. They knew what hell was, totally, and the main thing about it was that they would, in effect, worship themselves for all eternity.

The choice was not a “mistake”; not something to be repented later. It was as clear a choice as clear gets. They chose to worship themselves. Their intellects and wills being unified, they cannot “change their minds”. Nor, if they could, would they.

 

[NikkiQtwin]

Every Angel is it’s very own species.

It makes them fully conscious of their being and of many things we are not conscious of as humans.

If we are trying to relate what repentence means for us to what it means for them, then, the direction in understanding will have conflicts, because, the relation is that we are not the same.

I can’t speak for God, my father, who is all knowing.
He is great and loving, His gifts are wonderous to me, to us.
He does what’s best for us, and if He does not allow the fallen ones to come back, then, I trust in His Divine Judgement, as it is what is best for us.

YSIC,

Nikki

 

[Doxiemom]

Nope. There is no plan of redemption for angels. They were not made in His Image. God did not breathe Spirit into them as He did Adam.

One reason why (the mightiest of all angels Lucifer), for all his beauty hates us so mcuh and wants to win our eternal spirits away from the Creator.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I’ve often had questions myself about the beatific vision, exactly where to find the official catholic teaching that the angels did not have access to it prior to their testing, etc. People often point out that heaven is outside of time (as do several Church fathers), but it would also seem that there must be SOME concept of a form of time, otherwise there would never have been a choice to begin with, the angels would simply be. Is it possible that God experiences a passing of events in some way, and yet is outside of time in the temporal sense that we are familiar with? I know that common belief is that God is “outside of time” and experiences only the “now” but this is NOT a dogmatic statement, and there would seem to be other Scriptural verses and fathers that refer to God changing his mind as well, and having contingent courses of action for human history (not to mention there being a choice in heaven).

Im merely thinking out loud and wonder if anybody else has had similar thoughts or musings…

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I’ve often had questions myself about the beatific vision, exactly where to find the official catholic teaching that the angels did not have access to it prior to their testing, etc. People often point out that heaven is outside of time (as do several Church fathers), but it would also seem that there must be SOME concept of a form of time, otherwise there would never have been a choice to begin with, the angels would simply be. Is it possible that God experiences a passing of events in some way, and yet is outside of time in the temporal sense that we are familiar with? I know that common belief is that God is “outside of time” and experiences only the “now” but this is NOT a dogmatic statement, and there would seem to be other Scriptural verses and fathers that refer to God changing his mind as well, and having contingent courses of action for human history (not to mention there being a choice in heaven).

Im merely thinking out loud and wonder if anybody else has had similar thoughts or musings…

 

[Peter_Dawson]

This isn’t, per se, an answer to the issue raised, here, but I want to mention something I used to do in secret, years ago, when I engaged in ghost-hunting for avocational magazine articles: I humbly asked God, in prayer, to permit the demons I encountered in the ghost-hunting to have an opportunity to opt for salvation! I would secretly pray, “God, please open the door, at least once, to this confused, desperate, despairing Little One before me, so that he can be saved if he wants, by giving him the grace to choose You, if he so decides.”

Interestingly, nothing stopped the demonic “attention-getting” activities as quickly as that prayer.

I sometimes wonder if someday I’ll meet, and be thanked, by someone – an ex-demon – who has been saved by the prayer.

 

[Beverly9157]

Are there any scriptures that say WHO the other angels are that fell with Lucifer?