Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Gamera]

Nobody can deny that Christ was born. That is not even the point of contention. Never was. I do not know where you got that idea from. I repeat myself here:

God is a Spirit.

Just because God came in the form of a man does not make the one who gave birth to the man the mother of God. That is blasphemy. The woman merely provided a host for the form that has the abidance of God…* Do you finally see the absurdity of your claims?

“And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43.

“Mother” does not mean “creator.” Mary conceived Jesus and gave birth to Him. She is therefore His mother. Motherhood does not imply creation, but conception, gestation and birth.

A mother gives birth to a person, not just to the person’s body, but to a whole person (body, mind, soul). To claim otherwise is to deny that a whole person emerges from the womb. Would I dare tell my mother that she didn’t give birth to me, just to my body? How absurd!

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the Incarnation. It is to deny (as did ancient heretics) that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was fully God and fully human from the moment of His conception. He wasn’t a man who later became God. He wasn’t a spirit in the appearance of a man. He was fully God and fully human. Jesus was born from Mary’s womb, so Mary is the mother — not the creator, but the mother — of God.

 

[rinnie]

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

You think the bible is lying? Or you are mistaken about the issue of ‘full of grace’?

The Bible clearly states that NONE is righteous, which clearly INCLUDES mary. It doesn’t say with the exception of this or that person. Since when is ‘full of grace’ interpreted to mean ‘no sin’ ??? Where is it phrased thus except you and your friends.

Then what is Our Lord saying about Job, I am very sorry but he is saying Job is righteous. That is why he will listen to his prayers. Also are you saying the Blessed Mother has more sins than Job. If so why is it in Job 42:9 Last sentence may I quote: AND THE LORD ACCEPTED THE INTERCESSION OF JOB. UNQUOTE

So to answer you question once and for all Why do we need intercession go to Job and God himself will tell you. Because it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that when our Lord told Zophar and Naamathite to ask Job to pray for them, his prayers he will except and then not punish them, that they needed Jobs prayers because he would not accept theirs. So now either like you said either the Bible is lying or could it possibly be the YOU ARE MISTAKEN!

 

[rinnie]

And for the record my bible does not say that. Romans:3:10 as it is written there is not one just man. And he is talking about the Jews. You can’t just take a sentence and run with it. Paul was not talking about mankind. Please read on and Paul will also dispute you. One chapter later Romans 4:3 Abraham believed in God and it was credited to him as justice. Continue reading on It says in Romans 4:13 That because of Abrahams righteousness his descendants would inherit the world.

 

[rinnie]

Scientiphic, I think it’s now fair to ask, have you read the entire Bible, cover to cover? I ask because you continue referring to just a select handful of verses.

Boy did you not say a mouthful huh. Maybe if he would just take your advice, when he did quote scripture he could at least quote it in the true light. Wouldn’t that be great!

 

[Gamera]

You can’t just take a sentence and run with it.

I consider that ransom note theology — clip a few isolated phrases from Scripture, assemble them to say what you want, and claim that anyone who rejects your interpretation of it “doesn’t believe the Bible.” Of course, by that principle we should all obey Job 2:9: “Curse God and die.” After all, it’s right in the Bible, in black and white! Don’t you believe the Bible?

 

[jam070406]

Jam says: “You believe God can do anything but yet you don’t believe He could make the Mother of the Word made flesh without sin? Oh ye of little Faith!”

Answer: Correction. Its not even a question of faith! It’s a question of following scripture and being obedient unto God’s word.

Since Scripture clearly declared that nobody is good and none righteous, I take God’s word for it. That’s the difference between us. Why should I believe in something that is not even written and then tell myself to have faith for it? That’s pure nonsense.

Why would anybody believe Mary was sinless when the bible never says so?

You still have not addressed this:

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

 

[rinnie]

Also God is not just a Spirit. God is three persons in one being. HE IS THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. WE CALL IT THE TRINITY.

And it was by the Power of the Holy Spirit that God became Man. That same Holy Spirit that entered into our BLESSED MOTHER. JESUS IN ONE IN BEING WITH THE FATHER.

ALSO Mary’s role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly form it. The union started with her son in the work of salvation until his death.

quote

THUS THE BLESSED VIRGIN ADVANCED IN HER PILGRIMAGE OF FAITH, AND FAITHFULLY PERSEVERED IN HER UNION WITH HER SON UNTO THE CROSS, THERE SHE STOOD IN KEEPING WITH THE DIVINE PLAN ENDURING WITH HER ONLY BEGOTTON SON THE INTENSITY OF HIS SUFFERING JOINING HERSELF WITH THIS SACRIFICE IN HER MOTHERS HEART AND LOVINGLY CONSENTING TO THE IMMOLATION OF THIS VICTIM BORN OF HER TO BE GIVEN BY THE SAME CHRIST JESUS DYING ON THE CROSS, AS A MOTHER TO HIS DISCIPLE, WITH THESE WORDS WOMAN BEHOLD YOU SON. AFTER HER SONS ASCENSION MARY AIDED THE BEGINNINGS OF THE CHURCH BY HER PRAYERS. IN HER ASSOCIATION WITH THE APOSTLES AND SEVERAL WOMEN WE ALSO SEE MARY BY HER PRAYERS IMPLORING THE GIFT OF THE SPIRIT WHO HAD ALREADY OVERSHADOWED HER IN THE ANNUNCIATION. UNQUOTE.

What you do not seem to understand Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ but rather shows its Power, No one could ever be counted along with the incarnate Word and Redeemer. But just as the priesthood is shared in various ways Gods goodness is radiated in different ways among his creatures.

 

[jam070406]

God is a Spirit.

Just because God came in the form of a man does not make the one who gave birth to the man the mother of God. That is blasphemy. The woman merely provided a host for the form that has the abidance of God.

Put it another way, by your same logic. The president of USA decided finally that he shall try his hand at plumbing. In order to do so, he had to find out more about plumbing from a lady plumber who also washes toilets. After 2 hours of learning, he finally comes out and able to service his toilet problems.

Now, does that make the toilet washer the Teacher of the President? And will henceforth all who sees her Hail her as the President’s Lecturer?

So, she is the Queen of the American Presidency?

• Do you finally see the absurdy of your claims?

• Think. The only people in this world who will hail her as the president’s lecturer are those who have everything to gain by elevating her to cult status because they will otherwise have no connection with the president whatsoever.

.

Sorry, your analogy does not work.

Jesus was fully God and Fully man.
Mary gave birth to Jesus, the Word made flesh.
Are you saying Jesus didn’t take on Mary’s flesh??
Where do you get this?

Also, I don’t believe you addressed the Word of God that says,

“Blessed among women are you, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” [Luke 1:41-43; NASB]

Btw, Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit when she said this.

The Holy Spirit tells us that Mary is the Mother of Elizabeth’s (and our) Lord.
So yes, it is in the bible.

 

[rinnie]

I consider that ransom note theology — clip a few isolated phrases from Scripture, assemble them to say what you want, and claim that anyone who rejects your interpretation of it “doesn’t believe the Bible.” Of course, by that principle we should all obey Job 2:9: “Curse God and die.” After all, it’s right in the Bible, in black and white! Don’t you believe the Bible?

Isnt’t that the truth. And they will take that and run with it. Instead of reading the whole meaning of Job that his friends were actually dead because they in fact did curse God they were Like im sure we both understand spiritually Dead, they in part can take one sentence and go on and on and on … and never understand what God is saying.

Which of course dont get me wrong, just because we are Catholic we also don’t understand, but the BIG DIFFERENCE we know that you have to have the gift of the Holy Spirit to explain it, which is our church. Thats another big difference you may think you are right, i think i am, we go to the Church, we could both be wrong, we accept the Church because it is the truth learn and move on. But how could we ever know the truth without the Catholic Church to teach us. There has to be one truth. Thats what kills me, How can we learn without knowing the truth. What good is my truth or yours we need Gods Truth.

 

[jam070406]

But according to Isaiah 9:6 God the Son does have a mother. And His mother is the Virgin (Isaiah 7:14) Mary (Luke 1:27). To claim that Jesus was not born but merely carried in a vessel, is to deny the Incarnation. And we know too well the consequencies for such a denial.

Yes, this is a great point. Scientific is treading in dangerous waters.

Also, to think that Jesus would refer to His Mother as just some vessel is so completely offensive and disrespectful.

 

[adstrinity]

Yes, this is a great point. Scientific is treading in dangerous waters.

Also, to think that Jesus would refer to His Mother as just some vessel is so completely offensive and disrespectful.

At the very least, I ask those who hold the vessel view to consider what good is new wine in old wineskins?

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello Fellow Christians!

I am a new catholic (2006) and new to the forum and certainly not a Biblical scholar. (Also a very bad speller)

However, for our fellow Christians who rely on the theory of “sola scriptura” for their proof of opinions, theories, ect., have they ever considered this:

To this day we cannot locate the Arc of the Covenant nor the Holy Tablets the Commandments were written on. Heck some folks can’t even agree on what matter the Arc is or if it’s merely a symbol.

Would God have built His Church on something tangible and suseptable to destruction? If I am correct, and please correct if I’m not…the Bible, while Divinely Inspired was not devinely commanded. In other words, did God command the Bible to be written or just insure its infalliblity as written?

It is my humble opinion that God sent his only Begotten Son as THE WORD. His whole mission in life was to pass along that Word so that each and every one of us would be saved. Why didn’t He just bring forth a “Bible” if we are to believe in the theory of sola scriptura? If every Bible, reference to it and every written part of it were destroyed today we would be left with what God gave us…THE WORD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR. (Sorry about the caps, but gosh is that not the point?)

There is argument over this interpretation of the scriptures and that interpretation. The fact is that Christ is the Word first and foremost and the Bible is a Divinely Inspired teaching tool. I’m sure that one of our more scholarly posters can back me up on that.

Now that we’ve established that, Christ said “I will never leave You”. If every Bible were erraticated, then we would still have that promise. And who did he make that promise to? The One True Universal (Catholic) Church.

If there were no scripture who would everyone turn to? The One True Church who keeps the most thorough Deposit of Faith on the Planet…if i’m Protestant I’m going to the catholic church.

With that said, back to the OP…

If you ask YOUR mother to pray for you why wouldn’t you ask the Mother of mankind to pray for you? Because you might go to hell for asking the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ Himself to pray for you? Will you fall out of God’s Grace somehow by asking His mother to pray for you? Or do you just think that God didn’t choose a good enough person to be Jesus’ Mother?

You are treading on dangerous ground if you don’t “believe” in the Blessed Virgin as God’s mother and believe her worthy of praise and devotion. (And please notice that I did not mention "worship"here for goodness sake.)

Some things are true whether you believe them or not.

Thanks for entertaining my humble post.

God Bless Us All!

 

[placido]

“And why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” Luke 1:43.

“Mother” does not mean “creator.” Mary conceived Jesus and gave birth to Him. She is therefore His mother. Motherhood does not imply creation, but conception, gestation and birth.

A mother gives birth to a person, not just to the person’s body, but to a whole person (body, mind, soul). To claim otherwise is to deny that a whole person emerges from the womb. Would I dare tell my mother that she didn’t give birth to me, just to my body? How absurd!

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the Incarnation. It is to deny (as did ancient heretics) that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was fully God and fully human from the moment of His conception. He wasn’t a man who later became God. He wasn’t a spirit in the appearance of a man. He was fully God and fully human. Jesus was born from Mary’s womb, so Mary is the mother — not the creator, but the mother — of God.

Well done!

 

[placido]

Nobody can deny that Christ was born.

But you said previously He was not born, or, can a vessel give birth?

That is not even the point of contention. Never was. I do not know where you got that idea from.

The problem is: you agree Jesus was born [of a virgin?] yet, you also claim that Jesus has no mother. Or, maybe, that Jesus is not God, or maybe that Jesus is two Persons - one born, one not born. Your theology is confusing.

 

[rinnie]

Hey HappyCatholic and welcome. I was taught in bible study that the only reason the bible was started was because the Church had all the books and the protestants wanted it.

So after much pressure the first bible was written. I am sure if you dig deep you can find this to be true.

That is why also, all was not written in it that happened, because the way I understand they got everyone together at that time and the only thing that went in the bible was what they all agreed on.

For instance say me, you, and 4 other people said (this happened) but if 1 other person in the room (Im sure they were not just regular people but Priests, witness etc, anyway if One person disagreed it didnt get in. Even if it was true.

 

[happilycatholic]

Rinne:

Thanks!!

Wow, if that’s the case then here’s an obvious question:

If we were to rely on sola scriptura why would the Bible not be written by the finger of God as were the Commandments?

Further, why is it so hard to realize Mary’s holiness and revere her as such? Are we to believe that God chose an unholy woman to give birth to Jesus? I’ve heard non-catholics say they believe their guardian angels are with them, but not mother of our Savour?? Many Christians even carry those little guardian angle pins, but won’t dare carry a rosary.

The question is not “Can Mary” be sinless and intercede for you. The proper question is DID God choose a holy woman to carry His Child. Answer: God CAN and does do whatever He so desires and He chose Mary. Second, DOES God allow those in Heaven (not just Mary and the Saints) to pray for us? Answer: YES, emphatically YES! I cannot imagine God instructing us to pray for one another on earth but not in Heaven! That’s absurd!

The poster’s question however, is actually two-fold:

IS Mary sinless? Answer: Yes, whether you believe it or not.

and…

DOES she intercede for you? Answer: Yes, whether you believe it or not.

The fact that Protestants draw a line in the sand does not make us want to be on the other side. I am happy where I’m at. The question is, are they? Are they truly satisfied in their faith or do they ask such questions seeking an answer they can believe in? Why ask a question to which you already have the answer?

 

[happilycatholic]

Can I just add one other opinion on this topic?

The fact that we tend to use scripture to “back up” what we have been taught and beleive is using the Bible to the very extent is was intended to be used. That’s why we catholics have a “Deposit of Faith”…so as to have something to ‘draw’ from. Next when God handed the Commandments down to His people, did He explain every Commandment? No? Why? It came without explaination because we are supposed to have Faith and rely on Moses should we have questions or doubt.

The same with the poster’s question.

We as catholics have the Deposit of Faith to rely on. We have our Holy (notice it is never said “Heavenly”) Father to rely on to pass along (just as Peter and the rest of the Apostles did) the message from Christ regarding our salvation. The Pope is no more God than Moses and no less qualified than Moses. If God needed a Bible to tell Moses how to teach, He would have written that too. Instead the Bible came FROM those teachings. We call that the Old Testiment. Then there was the New Covenant…Christ. If I’m correct, Christ did not rely on the old scriptures to spread the Word. He relied on His faith in God and His relationship with God His Father. THAT is what he passed on to us, not the Bible. The Bible is an accounting of that, a necessary deposit of faith to be used with the rest.

So…while there is no scripture in the Bible that states Mary is “sinless” it is a matter first of simantics (sp?), because it does say she is “Full of Grace”. But it is also a matter of faith.

Do you really need it spelled out for you that God’s Only Begotten Son was born of the Virgin Mary? Do you really need it spelled out for you that just by the nature of her calling she is PURE of SIN? Do you really need it spelled out that everyone in Heaven is without sin? Do you really need it spelled out that it just makes plain common sense that is a really good thing to believe that Mary can pray for us?

Do yourself a favor and just believe. Just believe that the mother of our Savior is up there praying for you now. Find peace in that and whatever you do, do not continue to blaspheme. It is offensive and hurtful. It’s innocent to ask questions but not so much to make statements like have been made here.

Notice that I don’t quote scripture. I’m not an apologist, just a greatful believer in Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you.

 

[Good_Fella]

“The thought that the host must be clean in order for the birth to be clean is flawed because the conception of the birth itself has nothing to do with the host. It is the work of the Holy Ghost.”

Nothing to do with the host? Are you trying to tickle our ribs?

And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us.
John 1, 14

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son made of a woman.
Galatians 4, 4

Jesus assumed the flesh of his mother and did not merely appear to be human. Through her he acquired a genuine human nature distinct from the divine nature he still possessed united in his single Divine Person. Jesus was and still is in his heavenly glory both fully human and divine. Mary conceived and gave birth to one Divine Person who assumed an incorporeal human soul, mind, and will through her. And she provided the physical matter that fashioned Jesus upon being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not pass through an insulated corridor as a form of abstract light to only appear human in the flesh with just a divine nature. He actually became human like us in nature in his divinty. To contend otherwise begs the ancient heresy of Monophysitism.

As a result of original sin, our human nature is weakened and inclined to sin. In other words, it is wounded. Our human inclination to sin is called ‘concupiscence’. Original sin is contracted through both parents. Thus in order for Jesus to have fully assumed a human nature and avoid contracting the effects of original sin, his mother Mary would have had to be preserved free from the stain of original sin. If the Holy Spirit had directly intervened and preserved Jesus from the stain of original sin upon his conception on account of his mother’s fallen state of grace, then Jesus himself would have been “saved” from sin and death. But this can’t be the case, since Jesus is our saviour. He could not have redeemed us if he were in need of redemption. Mary was in need of redemption by implication, so God intervened with her Immaculate Conception.

Our only other option is to maintain that Jesus wasn’t fully human to begin with, that he only possessed a divine soul, mind, and will in the appearance of flesh - having nothing to do with the host. But Jesus could not have had a human soul, mind, and will if he were not physiologically human like his mother Mary. And Paul writes to the Hebrews that Jesus was “like us in all things but sin.”

And coming to her he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

PAX :tiphat:

 

[rinnie]

I guess HappyCatholic you are like a great example. Because you can see it from both sides of the fence now. Like the Pope says God maybe didn’t reveal this to them yet. So thats why I guess its wrong for us to tell protestants they are wrong because they really
only know what they know.

Where I thinks things go hay-wire on this forum is we are so strong and we see it so clear and we can’t understand why they don’t. On the same token they just don’t see it yet. And God will reveal it when hes ready.

But to know what you know, and then turn away from it, now thats where the Pope says our soul would be in grave danger. But see before you didnt know. see what I mean.

So you can’t be responsible for something you don’t understand. Its nice to be able to ask questions, but I guess we all need to realize we can only do so much. (myself included, sometimes we get so frustrated I guess. I guess its just so hard to want them to see what we see, but in their defense they just cant.

 

[Scientiphic]

Facts.

1 - The bible never said to pray to Mary.

2 - The bible says all have sinned and none righteous.

3 - The bible never says you need intercessors to pray to God.

4 - The bible never says Mary was sinless.

5 - The bible never says you must have an earthly leader.

Above are bare facts. You can insist on adding to them and that your tradition dictates so. Or you can insist that God ‘must have’, ótherwise’’ scenarios…ultimately. I am NOT going to assume that God must have done something ÏN ORDER to accomplish something that I again also assume to my own delusion.

That is precisely what we’re arguing here. Catholics making assumptions on behalf of God and then forcing themselves and others to have faith in it. I quoted you scripture to support my stand. But instead of quoting me scripture to support your absurd claims, all you fellas are doing are wasting time talking about why MY stand is wrong when I am taking scripture point blank.

Catholics only ASSUME…and they teach each other to assume as well. That’s why many say “I was taught this…or that…”. But how many of you can quote me BIBLICAL scripture to show me that I am wrong? NONE.