Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Peter_J]

Interesting comments. However this is off topic and if i get into a dicussion here i will expierence the wrath of my “friends” and be accused of derailing the topic.

I haven’t been able to find the actual quote, but didn’t Marge Simpson say something like “Someone who beats you up because of the way you dress doesn’t sound like a real friend.”?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Yes, that is what “tasted death FOR EVERYONE” means.

Does it? What verse please?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

That third sentence (even assuming that it’s true) does nothing to reconcile the first 2 sentences. If women don’t have “seed”, how could God promise Eve that her “seed” would conquer the enemy?

Pete, Fighting nits, or just picking them?

Did you mean Mediatrix before?

It, as you know but our protestants breathern may not, refers to the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary as a mediator in the salvation process. Of course it is a separate concept from Co-Redemptrix.
We know that the concept of Mediatrix has two meanings:

1. Mary gave birth to the redeemer, who is the fountain of all grace. Therefore she participated in the mediating of grace.
2. Mary, assumed into heaven, participates in the mediating of divine graces of her son.

 

[guanophore]

On what basis do you claim to have power in the next world or that a deceased saint does to impact this world?
Angels do have power to interact with this world when God allows it.

For the same reason the angels do…God allows it!

I did not claim that all things true are written in the Bible.

Actually, you have made that claim many times. Shall I post examples?

What am saying is that the claim that Mary is without sin and can intercede for you is not found or grounded in the Scriptures. It is not an apostolic doctrine since it was never taught by them.

You know what they say about opinions.
You are certainly welcome to yours. Why does it bother you so much for others to believe differently?

 What i don't believe that a prayer to a creature other than God is something a Christian is to do.

Then by all means, don’t do it! If someone knows what is right for her to do ,a nd does not do it, for her, it is a sin. So, don’t sin.

However, you also have no call to criticize the private prayer life of others.

 You can believe this but you cannot ground this in Scripture. You must believe this on other grounds i.e. what your church says.

Sure it is grounded in scripture! You just can’t see it, because of your anti-Catholic glasses.

However, when we look at their grounds for teaching these things they won't be able to ground it in Scripture.

You are right. The “grounds” for teaching the faith comes from Jesus great commission. He passed His authority to the Apostles,and charged them to teach all that He had commanded. All the teachings of the Church were acquired this way. They were whole and entire before a word of the NT was written.

Without the Scriptures you don't have an apostolic foundation.

Don’t you think, if this statement were true, you could find it in the bible?

You cannot find it there, but you can find several passages that state the opposite.

 

[guanophore]

Excuse me… Jesus only “tasted death” for everyone!!!

Last I knew, Jesus conquered death. He defeated death. He rose again and offers our restoration to ETERNAL LIFE with Him.

That is why we call it a 'taste".

Heb 2:9
we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

 

[guanophore]

 You can believe this but you cannot ground this in Scripture. You must believe this on other grounds i.e. what your church says.

Sure it is grounded in scripture! You just can’t see it, because of your anti-Catholic glasses.

However, when we look at their grounds for teaching these things they won't be able to ground it in Scripture.

You are right. The “grounds” for teaching the faith comes from Jesus great commission. He passed His authority to the Apostles,and charged them to teach all that He had commanded. All the teachings of the Church were acquired this way. They were whole and entire before a word of the NT was written.

Without the Scriptures you don't have an apostolic foundation.

Don’t you think, if this statement were true, you could find it in the bible?

You cannot find it there, but you can find several passages that state the opposite.

Without the Scriptures you do not have a church based on Christ.

Well, speak for yourself, ja4. Our Church was founded by Christ, not on the Scripture, which came later. Since yours is founded on the Scriptures (as well as it can be) then YOU are the one who will not have a church without them.

Only the Scriptures are inspired-inerrant and the church is to ground all its doctrines in them…

Don’t you think, if this were true, the Bible would say this?

How do you determine if your church is teaching truth from error without the Scriptures?

We use the scriptures also for the discernment of truth, along with the Apostolic Teaching that has been passed down alongside them.

 

[jfallaw]

Does it? What verse please?

Hebrews 2:9

 

[AshleyBelle]

That is why we call it a 'taste".

Heb 2:9
we do see Jesus, who for a little while was made lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

I understand the context But this is the quote I disagreed with:

• Originally Posted by justasking4
  This is not true. Jesus did not take death away but “tasted death” for everyone. Hebrews 2:9. The total defeat of death will not happen until He comes again. In the meantime we do expierence physical death and are deeply impacted by it when it happens.*
  
  He was trying to say that because Christ only “tasted death” that death had not been conquered for the rest of us. He was trying to use this verse as a rebuttal for the idea that our brothers and sisters in Christ are still ALIVE in heaven, in the communion of saints.

So I agree… Christ did “taste death” for all of us… But wouldn’t it be accurate to say that he tasted it so that we would not die, but have eternal life?

 

[rinnie]

ja4 Why do you ask the same questions over and over again? On every thread, and you keep getting the same answers over and over again. What do you really think is going to happen? Do you think that we are going to change everything just to make you happy? We can’t. All we can do is tell you what we know to the best of our knowledge. But you would think that eventually you would get sick of the same questions. And the same arguments.

 

[guanophore]

I understand the context But this is the quote I disagreed with:

• Originally Posted by justasking4
  This is not true. Jesus did not take death away but “tasted death” for everyone. Hebrews 2:9. The total defeat of death will not happen until He comes again. In the meantime we do expierence physical death and are deeply impacted by it when it happens.*
  
  He was trying to say that because Christ only “tasted death” that death had not been conquered for the rest of us. He was trying to use this verse as a rebuttal for the idea that our brothers and sisters in Christ are still ALIVE in heaven, in the communion of saints.

So I agree… Christ did “taste death” for all of us… But wouldn’t it be accurate to say that he tasted it so that we would not die, but have eternal life?

No, someone, (was it rinnie?) posted that Catholics don’t believe in death anymore, and she posted it to refute that. I agree, :bigyikes:

although we believe we will overcome death, we will still “taste” death until He returns, and conquers that also. However, the fact that people pass through physical separation from their bodies does not equate to saints not being alive in heaven. Ja4 rejects the Apostolic Teaching on the communion of saints.

 

[AshleyBelle]

ja4 Why do you ask the same questions over and over again? On every thread, and you keep getting the same answers over and over again. What do you really think is going to happen? Do you think that we are going to change everything just to make you happy? We can’t. All we can do is tell you what we know to the best of our knowledge. But you would think that eventually you would get sick of the same questions. And the same arguments.

Ja4 had a good point on another thread, that I addressed and never had a reply to.

She (I’m not sure, Ja4 are you a he or she?), stated “But doesn’t the truth matter?”

When I asked why our pious devotion to the blessed virgin, which helps us grow in devotion to Christ, was “wrong.”

So I replied, and I'll say it again.

Of course the truth matters! We should all strive to share the truth as we know it! But there is a difference between sharing your faith, and belittling the faith of others who hold a different truth from your own.

You ask us to defend our position, and we have answered the same questions repeatedly. We have given scriptural evidence, historical evidence, explanation in regards to our faith in church Tradition and magisterium…and none of it has been sufficient.

But what Ja4 and others who seem to posess a blind hatred for Mary can’t do in return, is defend THEIR truth the way the demand of us.

So…why is it wrong for Catholics to pray to Mary so that we may grow in devotion to Christ? Why is it wrong for us to believe with faith that God saved Mary from sin so that she could be a perfect model for us of love for our Lord?

Why do we “need” to believe YOUR truth…if you cannot even provide an explanation other than, because you don’t agree?

 

[AshleyBelle]

No, someone, (was it rinnie?) posted that Catholics don’t believe in death anymore, and she posted it to refute that. I agree, :bigyikes:

although we believe we will overcome death, we will still “taste” death until He returns, and conquers that also. However, the fact that people pass through physical separation from their bodies does not equate to saints not being alive in heaven. Ja4 rejects the Apostolic Teaching on the communion of saints.

Oh I agree completely, I’m sorry for not clarifying But would it be safe to say, that though we also must “taste death” physically… that because of Christ’s sacrifice, we no longer experience a “spiritual” death?

 

[rinnie]

Ja4 had a good point on another thread, that I addressed and never had a reply to.

She (I’m not sure, Ja4 are you a he or she?), stated “But doesn’t the truth matter?”

When I asked why our pious devotion to the blessed virgin, which helps us grow in devotion to Christ, was “wrong.”

So I replied, and I'll say it again.

Of course the truth matters! We should all strive to share the truth as we know it! But there is a difference between sharing your faith, and belittling the faith of others who hold a different truth from your own.

You ask us to defend our position, and we have answered the same questions repeatedly. We have given scriptural evidence, historical evidence, explanation in regards to our faith in church Tradition and magisterium…and none of it has been sufficient.

But what Ja4 and others who seem to posess a blind hatred for Mary can’t do in return, is defend THEIR truth the way the demand of us.

So…why is it wrong for Catholics to pray to Mary so that we may grow in devotion to Christ? Why is it wrong for us to believe with faith that God saved Mary from sin so that she could be a perfect model for us of love for our Lord?

Why do we “need” to believe YOUR truth…if you cannot even provide an explanation other than, because you don’t agree?

I know, I think I just need a time out from her again. At least we tried. Here is something else I was thinking of. Kinda off thread but maybe not. Where in the bible does it state that in this world a thousand years is like a minute in the next world. or something like that, Can anyone remember, I can just remember the joke about it.

 

[notsmart]

I know, I think I just need a time out from her again. At least we tried. Here is something else I was thinking of. Kinda off thread but maybe not. Where in the bible does it state that in this world a thousand years is like a minute in the next world. or something like that, Can anyone remember, I can just remember the joke about it.

God is outside of time. Time is Past Present and Future (but they are all TIME) - by the way this is good to use when explaining the Trinity to someone…
The passage I will check when I get back home. I think its like a day could be a thousand years to God. Another reason to not take the literal creation account to have happened in 6 days with one day of rest.

 

[justasking4]

But Mary is an “intercessorix”.

(Man, how do you spell that? “Intercesrix”? That looks even worse.)

Is Mary between you and Christ?

 

[guanophore]

Oh I agree completely, I’m sorry for not clarifying But would it be safe to say, that though we also must “taste death” physically… that because of Christ’s sacrifice, we no longer experience a “spiritual” death?

Yes, I think it is a better way to say it. Once we are joined to Him in baptism, we are buried with HIm in death, and united with HIm in His resurrection. Unfortunately even this is not sufficient to pursuade ja4 that to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[justasking4]

I know, I think I just need a time out from her again. At least we tried. Here is something else I was thinking of. Kinda off thread but maybe not. Where in the bible does it state that in this world a thousand years is like a minute in the next world. or something like that, Can anyone remember, I can just remember the joke about it.

Are you thinking of 2 Peter 3:8 where it says:

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Ps- enjoy your break…

 

[rinnie]

Is Mary between you and Christ?

I would love to have her with me when I meet Christ. Between, in front of, beside. Dont care. If she would be with me it would be an honor. But for the upteen time Mary is not between us and Christ she prays for us.

 

[rinnie]

Are you thinking of 2 Peter 3:8 where it says:

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

Ps- enjoy your break…

Yes thanks thats it. Not to change the subject. BUT GOD BLESS US ALL AND SAY A HAIL MARY BEFORE YOU VOTE. THATS WHAT IM GOING TO DO.

 

[rinnie]

Yes thanks thats it. Not to change the subject. BUT GOD BLESS US ALL AND SAY A HAIL MARY BEFORE YOU VOTE. THATS WHAT IM GOING TO DO.

SORRY JUSTASKING4 DIDNT REALIZE IT WAS YOU. SO YOU CAN JUST SAY A OUR FATHER. HOPEFULLY WE WONT ARGUE ABOUT THAT ONE.