Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Scientiphic]

Gamera, you said…

The solution was that at the moment of Mary’s conception (Mary’s conception, not Jesus’ conception) God made Mary free from original sin. – And how do you know this?

The Immaculate Conception was Mary’s conception within her mother Anne’s womb, not Jesus’ conception in Mary’s womb. – And how do you know this?

This is why, when the angel greeted Mary, he called her “full of grace” (kercharitomene). A person who bears the stain of original sin cannot be “full of grace.” – And how do you know this?

*** If mary’s own conception was made free from sin, how about Anne? Was she full of sin but gave birth to mary who was sinless? In other words, it was not just Jesus who had a miraculous birth and was born sinless? Then shouldn’t it have been Mary to die on the cross for mankind as the perfect sacrifice???!**

 

[Gamera]

Gamera, you said…

The solution was that at the moment of Mary’s conception (Mary’s conception, not Jesus’ conception) God made Mary free from original sin. – And how do you know this?

The Immaculate Conception was Mary’s conception within her mother Anne’s womb, not Jesus’ conception in Mary’s womb. – And how do you know this?

This is why, when the angel greeted Mary, he called her “full of grace” (kercharitomene). A person who bears the stain of original sin cannot be “full of grace.” – And how do you know this?

Well, I’ll give you two answers: the precise answer, and the answer you probably want.

How do I know it? I personally know it because it’s taught by the Church, which is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth,” (1 Tim 3:15). But I suppose your question is, how does the Catholic Church know it? Through the Apostles’ preaching, which constituted the word of God (1 Thes 2:13).

*** If mary’s own conception was made free from sin, how about Anne? Was she full of sin but gave birth to mary who was sinless? In other words, it was not just Jesus who had a miraculous birth and was born sinless? Then shouldn’t it have been Mary to die on the cross for mankind???!**

Under your scenario, both Mary’s mother AND father would have to have been free of original sin. And that would mean ALL children born to them would have been free of original sin, too, not only Mary. That would be far more than what was necessary for Jesus, who had only one biological parent, to be born free of original sin.

 

[Gamera]

I realy like the explanaion this helps in my strugle to understand Mary’s role as I am journing to the Catholic Church.

Why thank ya. And, welcome aboard!

 

[Scientiphic]

Well, I’ll give you two answers: the precise answer, and the answer you probably want.

How do I know it? I personally know it because it’s taught by the Church, which is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth,” (1 Tim 3:15). But I suppose your question is, how does the Catholic Church know it? Through the Apostles’ preaching, which constituted the word of God (1 Thes 2:13).

Under your scenario, both Mary’s mother AND father would have to have been free of original sin. And that would mean ALL children born to them would have been free of original sin, too, not only Mary. That would be far more than what was necessary for Jesus, who had only one biological parent, to be born free of original sin.

2 answers.

1 - I asked how do you know. And you reply me ‘the church says so’.

2 - I ask why wasn’t mary crucified instead since she would also be a perfect sacrifice, you tell me only mary was specially made sinless. Again, who told you?

My point is, all that catholics are arguing for is based on what their catholic church tells them. Its not biblical.

If we take a step back, close our eyes and imagine that there’s no catholic system today and we read the Bible as it is. Its not difficult to realise that God meant what He said when He said ‘NONE IS RIGHTEOUS’…‘NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD’.

.

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[jam070406]

2 answers.

1 - I asked how do you know. And you reply me ‘the church says so’.

2 - I ask why wasn’t mary crucified instead since she would also be a perfect sacrifice, you tell me only mary was specially made sinless. Again, who told you?

My point is, all that catholics are arguing for is based on what their catholic church tells them. Its not biblical.

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The whole, “it’s not biblical” argument is so tiring. What’s the point of grilling Catholics with questions if you don’t really want to hear the answers? You’re not going to convert people. And there are forums rules against such things. So what is your purpose here?

 

[Gamera]

My point is, all that catholics are arguing for is based on what their catholic church tells them. Its not biblical.

What do you mean, “its not biblical.” Do you mean it isn’t found spelled out in the Bible? So what? The Apostles’ preaching constitutes God’s word too, according to the Bible (1 Thes 2:13). If something is contained in God’s word, does it matter whether the portion of God’s word which contains it is Scripture or the Apostles’ preaching?

If we take a step back, close our eyes and imagine that there’s no catholic system today and we read the Bible as it is. Its not difficult to realise that God meant what He said when He said ‘NONE IS RIGHTEOUS’…‘NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD’.

.

But as I showed you, you’ve quoted that verse out of context. St. Paul was citing Psalm 14 which says that AMONG SINNERS, “none is righteous,” (verse 3) IN CONTRAST TO the “righteous” described in verse 5.

Also, why do you keep saying “Catholic system,.” do you have some reason for not saying “Catholic Church?” And since Catholics wrote the New Testament, we wouldn’t have our current Bible without them.

 

[Gamera]

The whole, “it’s not biblical” argument is so tiring. What’s the point of grilling Catholics with questions if you don’t really want to hear the answers? You’re not going to convert people. And there are forums rules against such things. So what is your purpose here?

If I remember correctly, the same poster said that Catholics “don’t read their Bibles.” (LOL!) Maybe he thinks we just swallow whatever we are told. Should we tell him how many CAF Catholics are converts from Protestantism?

 

[jam070406]

If I remember correctly, the same poster said that Catholics “don’t read their Bibles.” (LOL!) Maybe he thinks we just swallow whatever we are told. Should we tell him how many CAF Catholics are converts from Protestantism?

If I thought it would do some good I’d say yes, but sadly I don’t think it would matter.

 

[Scientiphic]

Besides the case of the water-to-wine miracle where Jesus said to mary ‘What has this concern of yours to do with me, woman?’

We also see in Luke 2 when Mary and Joseph lost sight of Jesus and later found Jesus and Jesus replied them…

Luke 2: 49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Yes, they did not understand. Clearly, whatever that Jesus was doing was for God, and Mary had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. She did not understand.

Repeatedly, we see Mary calling herself a humble servant/slave of God.

Luke 1: 48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.

Luke 1:38 38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered.

• It is exceedingly clear that Mary sees herself as nothing more than a servant of God. Mary is not sinless. Only God is. Just like the rest of us, mary too awaited for the redemption through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

By saying she is sinless, the entire concept of salvation becomes flawed.

.

 

[tGette]

Besides the case of the water-to-wine miracle where Jesus said to mary ‘What has this concern of yours to do with me, woman?’

We also see in Luke 2 when Mary and Joseph lost sight of Jesus and later found Jesus and Jesus replied them…

Luke 2: 49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Yes, they did not understand. Clearly, whatever that Jesus was doing was for God, and Mary had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

Repeatedly, we see Mary calling herself a humble servant/slave of God.

Luke 1: 48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.

Luke 1:38 38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered.

• It is exceedingly clear that Mary sees herself as nothing more than a servant of God. Mary is not sinless. Only God is. Just like the rest of us, mary too awaited for the redemption through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

By saying she is sinless, the entire concept of salvation becomes flawed.

.

Luke 1:37

 

[Scientiphic]

Luke 1:37

If you expect to cover everything by quoting 1:37, you might as well say that you are Hitler re-incarnated. Afterall, nothing is impossible. right? Who knows, there might be another

Yes, nothing is impossible, but importantly God will never contradict Himself.

 

[jam070406]

Besides the case of the water-to-wine miracle where Jesus said to mary ‘What has this concern of yours to do with me, woman?’

We also see in Luke 2 when Mary and Joseph lost sight of Jesus and later found Jesus and Jesus replied them…

Luke 2: 49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Yes, they did not understand. Clearly, whatever that Jesus was doing was for God, and Mary had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. She did not understand.

Repeatedly, we see Mary calling herself a humble servant/slave of God.

Luke 1: 48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.

Luke 1:38 38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered.

• It is exceedingly clear that Mary sees herself as nothing more than a servant of God. Mary is not sinless. Only God is. Just like the rest of us, mary too awaited for the redemption through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

By saying she is sinless, the entire concept of salvation becomes flawed.

.

What does all this have to do with her being the ark of the new covenant?
She also said, “all generations shall call me blessed”

 

[Scientiphic]

What does all this have to do with her being the ark of the new covenant?
She also said, “all generations shall call me blessed”

Many people are also blessed. Are they sinless?

.

 

[Gamera]

Besides the case of the water-to-wine miracle where Jesus said to mary ‘What has this concern of yours to do with me, woman?’

We also see in Luke 2 when Mary and Joseph lost sight of Jesus and later found Jesus and Jesus replied them…

Luke 2: 49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house?” 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Clearly, whatever that Jesus was doing was for God, and Mary had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

Repeatedly, we see Mary calling herself a humble servant/slave of God.

Luke 1: 48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.

Luke 1:38 38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered.

Well, “woman” is a term of archetype, not a put-down. Jesus wasn’t insulting Mary by calling her “woman.” And yes, Mary is a humble servant of Jesus. That’s what Catholics believe. That is the whole point. She is the handmaid of the Lord.

• It is exceedingly clear that Mary sees herself as nothing more than a servant of God.

Agreed!

Mary is not sinless.

That’s a novel man-made interpretation, with no basis in the deposit of faith. The Bible says she is “full of grace” (kercharitomene) in a tense which implies timelessness (past, present and future). A person with sin isn’t full of grace.

Only God is.

Well, do you think heaven is empty? Because only those made sinless by Christ’s shed blood will be in heaven. So no, God is not the only sinless entity, otherwise He’d be alone in heaven. He has made many people sinless by His sacrifice.

Just like the rest of us, mary too awaited for the redemption through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

Catholics agree that Mary was saved by Jesus. I explained that to you above.

By saying she is sinless, the entire concept of salvation becomes flawed.

How so?

 

[Scientiphic]

Well, “woman” is a term of arcfhetype, not a put-down. Jesus wasn’t insulting Mary by calling her “woman.” And yes, Mary is a humble servant of Jesus. That’s what Catholcis believe. That is the whole point. She is the handmaid of the Lord.

Agreed!

That’s a novel man-made interpretation, with no basis in the deposit of faith.

Well, do you think heaven is empty? Because only those made sinless by Christ’s shed blood will be in heaven. So no, God is not the only sinless entity, otherwise He’d be alone in heaven. He has made many people sinless by His sacrifice.

Catholics agree that Mary was saved by Jesus. I explained that to you above.

How so?

You said: That’s a novel man-made interpretation, with no basis in the deposit of faith. The Bible says she is “full of grace” (kercharitomene) in a tense which implies timelessness (past, present and future). A person with sin isn’t full of grace.

My Answer: I believe this is the key point of issue that we have. Catholics insist that this ‘full of grace’ means sinlessness. Non-catholics insist it has nothing to do with claiming mary to be sinless.

 

[jam070406]

If you expect to cover everything by quoting 1:37, you might as well say that you are Hitler re-incarnated. Afterall, nothing is impossible. right? Who knows, there might be another

Yes, nothing is impossible, but importantly God will never contradict Himself.

You’re right God doesn’t contradict Himself. He said He would put enmity between Mary and the serpant.

 

[jam070406]

Many people are also blessed. Are they sinless?

.

Are many people the Ark of the new covenant?

 

[Gamera]

Wait, I’m conducting a meeting.

So? I’m watching “It Came from Beneath the Sea.” Can’t you multi-task?

 

[Scientiphic]

I believe the key point of issue is that Catholics insist that the statement ‘full of grace’ means mary was sinless.

Non-catholics however insist it has nothing to do with claiming mary to be sinless because they believe the bible when it says 'none is righteous and all have sinned.

So, its very straight forward right? Do we choose to believe in the bible as it is declared, or do we choose to assume something that is not clearly defined?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I believe the key point of issue is that Catholics insist that the statement ‘full of grace’ means mary was sinless.

Non-catholics however insist it has nothing to do with claiming mary to be sinless because they believe the bible when it says 'none is righteous and all have sinned.

So, its very straight forward right? Do we choose to believe in the bible as it is declared, or do we choose to assume something that is not clearly defined?

What does full of grace mean to you?

Of note, the greek work used connotes a state of being that is in process and not a temporary condition.

Could Mary be full of grace if she was stained with sin?