Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Truthfaithlove]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Is Mary, god? No. she’s a mortal. So how can she be good or sinless when Jesus says ONLY GOD IS GOOD?

A lot of Catholics do not understand why, since Mary can give birth to Jesus how could she have sin? And since Jesus is God, therefore Mary must be the mother of God.

The Bible clearly states, where God says ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end’. This means that God does NOT have ANYBODY else before Him. IN OTHER WORDS, He does NOT have parents. So, how can Mary be God’s mother?

Well, Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus. But Jesus is BOTH Man & God. The fleshly body of Jesus is Man, the Spirit that is in Him is God. Mary was used as a vessel to give birth to the FLESH that God used while He was on earth. There is no way that a mortal being can give birth to the immortal God.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Insisting that God was born by Mary is B-L-A-S-P-H-E-M-Y.

Let’s not also forget that Mary called herself a slave/servant of God, and she too prayed feverishly with the other disciples after Christ’s resurrection for the coming Holy Spirit. She Did Not pray For the others, but WITH the others. In other words, she is just another sinner like you and me. At the 1st miracle of water to wine at the wedding in Capernaum (John 2) when she informed Jesus that the wine had ran out, Jesus replied her bluntly ‘what has this concern of yours to do with me, woman’? ‘My hour has not yet come’.

This incident shows clearly that Mary has no involvement with the works of God, neither does she know what God has in store. She is a humble and obedient servant of God.

Job 25:4 How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure?

Indeed, if Jesus was born of woman, He would be impure. But Jesus is NOT born of woman!

For Jesus also said ‘Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.’

If Jesus was also born of woman, would He not even be lesser than John the Baptist?

Jesus said ‘I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. No man goes to the Father except through me’.

Now, do you still need to go through Mary??? No, you obviously don’t.

Mary had sin in her just like you and me, BUT she was highly regarded enough to be chosen by God as His earthly mother while He abided on earth. Mary cannot intercede for you just like nobody can intercede for you. That is why Jesus is both the judge & mediator.

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Yes, for God mediates for us unto Himself through Jesus Christ.

Jesus, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Not the Pope, not Peter and certainly not Mary.

Catholics, read the Bible for yourself before its too late.

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[Mannyfit75]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Is Mary, god? No. she’s a mortal. So how can she be good or sinless when Jesus says ONLY GOD IS GOOD?

A lot of Catholics do not understand why, since Mary can give birth to Jesus how could she have sin? And since Jesus is God, therefore Mary must be the mother of God.

The Bible clearly states, where God says ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end’. This means that God does NOT have ANYBODY else before Him. IN OTHER WORDS, He does NOT have parents. So, how can Mary be God’s mother?

Well, Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus. But Jesus is BOTH Man & God. The fleshly body of Jesus is Man, the Spirit that is in Him is God. Mary was used as a vessel to give birth to the FLESH that God used while He was on earth. There is no way that a mortal being can give birth to the immortal God.

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Insisting that God was born by Mary is B-L-A-S-P-H-E-M-Y.

Let’s not also forget that Mary called herself a slave/servant of God, and she too prayed feverishly with the other disciples after Christ’s resurrection for the coming Holy Spirit. She Did Not pray For the others, but WITH the others. In other words, she is just another sinner like you and me. At the 1st miracle of water to wine at the wedding in Capernaum (John 2) when she informed Jesus that the wine had ran out, Jesus replied her bluntly ‘what has this concern of yours to do with me, woman’? ‘My hour has not yet come’.

This incident shows clearly that Mary has no involvement with the works of God, neither does she know what God has in store. She is a humble and obedient servant of God.

Job 25:4 How then can a man be righteous before God? How can one born of woman be pure?

Indeed, if Jesus was born of woman, He would be impure. But Jesus is NOT born of woman!

For Jesus also said ‘Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.’

If Jesus was also born of woman, would He not even be lesser than John the Baptist?

Jesus said ‘I am the Truth, the Way and the Life. No man goes to the Father except through me’.

Now, do you still need to go through Mary??? No, you obviously don’t.

Mary had sin in her just like you and me, BUT she was highly regarded enough to be chosen by God as His earthly mother while He abided on earth. Mary cannot intercede for you just like nobody can intercede for you. That is why Jesus is both the judge & mediator.

Galatians 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Yes, for God mediates for us unto Himself through Jesus Christ.

Jesus, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Not the Pope, not Peter and certainly not Mary.

Catholics, read the Bible for yourself before its too late.

.

We do read the Bible and it is not too late. We read the Bible on its full context, and Mary is sinless because God made her to be sinless so she can worthily become the Mother of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, or Mother of God.

The title Mother of God is not even a heresy. This title was affirmed by the Early Church in the Council of Ephesus in 432 AD when the Church Fathers battled the heresy of Nestorianism.

Not only do we Catholics affirms that Mary is the Mother of God, but Eastern Orthodox Christians also affirm as well as orthodox Protestants.

Mary can mediate for us, just as much as any Christian can pray for me. Mary is not worship like we worship God. We do not even worship her.

We honor her and venerate her. We ask her to pray for us, which no different of me asking my family to pray for me.

Mary is a creature and a created being. She is the most perfection creation of God. The daughter of the God, the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son of God.

Second, the Catholic Church does not believe that God was by the virgin Mary is false misconception.

The Church affirms that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is the Word of God. He is both Truth God and Truth Man. Mary said, “be it done unto me according to your word,” the eternal Word became Flesh.

She is not the Mother of God, the Father, nor the Mother of God, the Holy Spirit. She is the Mother of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.

She did not give birth to her divinity. Jesus was at the beginning and he had no beginning or end. He is the Alpha and the Omega. In the beginning, he had no flesh. He was pure spirit in full communion God, the Father and Holy Spirit. Three Persons, but One God.

In the salvation history, the Word became flesh. How did the Word have flesh in the first place? Well, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and the Word became flesh. Jesus’ own flesh comes from pure flesh which is also blameless; like her Son.

Mary is human.

As for your comment on the Pope. Well, the Pope is the successor of St. Peter. He is the first Pope. His successor is Benedict XVI. History shows that Peter was crucified upside down in Rome and he was buried underneath St. Peter’s Basilicia which was originally a stadium where Christians were persecuted.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

We do read the Bible and it is not too late. We read the Bible on its full context, and Mary is sinless because God made her to be sinless so she can worthily become the Mother of Our Lord, Jesus Christ, or Mother of God.

The title Mother of God is not even a heresy. This title was affirmed by the Early Church in the Council of Ephesus in 432 AD when the Church Fathers battled the heresy of Nestorianism.

Not only do we Catholics affirms that Mary is the Mother of God, but Eastern Orthodox Christians also affirm as well as orthodox Protestants.

Mary can mediate for us, just as much as any Christian can pray for me. Mary is not worship like we worship God. We do not even worship her.

We honor her and venerate her. We ask her to pray for us, which no different of me asking my family to pray for me.

Mary is a creature and a created being. She is the most perfection creation of God. The daughter of the God, the Father, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Mother of the Son of God.

Second, the Catholic Church does not believe that God was by the virgin Mary is false misconception.

The Church affirms that Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is the Word of God. He is both Truth God and Truth Man. Mary said, “be it done unto me according to your word,” the eternal Word became Flesh.

She is not the Mother of God, the Father, nor the Mother of God, the Holy Spirit. She is the Mother of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.

She did not give birth to her divinity. Jesus was at the beginning and he had no beginning or end. He is the Alpha and the Omega. In the beginning, he had no flesh. He was pure spirit in full communion God, the Father and Holy Spirit. Three Persons, but One God.

In the salvation history, the Word became flesh. How did the Word have flesh in the first place? Well, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and the Word became flesh. Jesus’ own flesh comes from pure flesh which is also blameless; like her Son.

Mary is human.

As for your comment on the Pope. Well, the Pope is the successor of St. Peter. He is the first Pope. His successor is Benedict XVI. History shows that Peter was crucified upside down in Rome and he was buried underneath St. Peter’s Basilicia which was originally a stadium where Christians were persecuted.

I don’t know where you got that weird idea of Trinity from, about 2nd person or 3rd person etc…because God is ONE.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Jesus is God Himself, not another God.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Mary is no exception

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[Mannyfit75]

I don’t know where you got that weird idea of Trinity from, about 2nd person or 3rd person etc…because God is ONE.

Wow. Your theology is false. The majority of Christians believe in the Trinity.

This belief teaches that God is Three Divine Persons but ONE GOD. God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Jesus is God Himself, not another God.

Trinity does not teach three Gods. It teaches One God, three Divine Persons.

Jesus is One with the Father because Jesus said, “The Father and I are One.”

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Mary is no exception

Mary is without sin,. Besides all does not always mean all. If it did, it would mean that infants who have no means of reasoning are in capable of sin.

To commit sin, you must know what sin is.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Infants don’t go around sinning, but they have the original sin. That’s why Jesus came.

By the way, there’s no such word as Trinity in the bible. So, I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that my theology is false.

On the CONTRARY, the Bible NEVER said Mary has no sin. How did YOU arrive at the conclusion that she is sinless?

Looks like you are the one having the false theology.

When there’s no mention of the word Trinity, you put in the word Trinity, when there’s mention that all has sinned, you remove it and say that not all has sinned.

Does ‘No, you shall NOT surely die’ sound familiar to you?

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[Mannyfit75]

Infants don’t go around sinning, but they have the original sin. That’s why Jesus came.

That is why infants are baptizes so their original sin is taken away. Jesus commanded us to baptize everyone. Once children reaches the age of reason, 7 yrs, they can commit sin.

By the way, there’s no such word as Trinity in the bible. So, I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that my theology is false.
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Of course the word Trinity is not in the Bible. This beliefs are defined in the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. You theology is false because you deny the Trinity.

The Trinity is a mystery which no mere human mind can comprehend. Our minds are finite. Second, Jesus established One Church (which is the Catholic Church upon Peter). So when the Church Trinity, it is bound.

You assumed Trinity implies three gods. It does not. Trinity teaches that God is Three Persons but ONE God. Jesus is a person. The Father is also a person, and the Holy Spirit. They are One God. Not three Gods.

If you cannot understand this and deny this Truth. Then your theology is flawed.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

I only know the Bible. Not any council.

I only know the word Trinity does not exist.

I only know God, not any person(s).

I only know NOBODY is righteous.

That’s why God had to come in the flesh as Jesus.

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[Mannyfit75]

I only know the Bible. Not any council.

I only know the word Trinity does not exist.

I only know God, not any person(s).

I only know NOBODY is righteous.

That’s why God had to come in the flesh as Jesus.

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Read this. This the Trinity is Biblical my friend. Time for you to learn Christian history.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4285722#post4285722

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Frankly, I don’t bother myself with this “Trinity” thingy because it is clearly beyond us. Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

What we should concern ourselves with is not how God can do this or that or what state God is in…that is way out of line for us to involve in. We should concern ourselves with the Salvation grace and how we can get saved.

Which is…through Jesus Christ, ALONE.

Mary is not sinless and cannot be our intercessor. And for your information, Christianity is NOT about history. Its about CHRIST.

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[Mannyfit75]

Frankly, I don’t bother myself with this “Trinity” thingy because it is clearly beyond us. Philippians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

The Trinity is mystery. I cannot fully understand it myself. However, I trust that the Church teaches about the Trinity to be true because the Church is the pullar and bulwark of truth.

What we should concern ourselves with is not how God can do this or that or what state God is in…that is way out of line for us to involve in. We should concern ourselves with the Salvation grace and how we can get saved.

Which is…through Jesus Christ, ALONE.

God can do many miracles. Jesus is the only one who can save. Yet, he uses ordinary human beings to spread his Gospel message by living out the Christian example of helping your neighbor.

Mary is not sinless and cannot be our intercessor.

Mary is sinless because God make her so. So you deny that God is incapable of created Mary free of sin?

Second, intercession according to St. Paul is good in the eyes of God.

In his 1st Timothy Chapter 2 , Paul wrote;

1] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
[2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
[3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
[4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul clearly tells Christians and Timothy for this matter that intecession is good. Mary is the proto-Christian because she is the first human being who accepted Jesus Christ.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Just like I do not insist that God cannot make Mary sinless, you cannot insist that God made her sinless either.

So, if either of us makes a stand on this, it implies we are ASSUMING.

Now, in order NOT to Assume, we have to take God’s word for it. Word for word.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned—

• Now, I am NOT assuming. I take the above as it is. Can YOU? If you so much as deviate even a little from the above declaration, you are essentially a Heretic.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Just like I do not insist that God cannot make Mary sinless, you cannot insist that God made her sinless either.

Because the Scripture called Mary full of grace in Luke 1:28, which in Greek means karcharitome, which literally means one who is endowed with grace or perfected. The Early Church Fathers understood this plainly and often called Mary pure.

For example,

*“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415). *

So, if either of us makes a stand on this, it implies we are ASSUMING.

I am not assuming here. I am only adhering to the teachings of the Catholic Church which teaches the Truth concerning Mary.

Now, in order NOT to Assume, we have to take God’s word for it. Word for word.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned—

• Now, I am NOT assuming. I take the above as it is. Can YOU? If you so much as deviate even a little from the above declaration, you are essentially a Heretic.

\

Oh no. I’m no heretic. Second by what authority makes you to call me so?

The Church Council did stated in their battle against the heresy of Nestorianism, or Arianism, that anyone who denies that Mary is the Mother of God is a heretic, or deny the Trinity is also a heretic. According to this, you are a heretic, not I.

and like I said, early all have sin cannot be taken literally all the time. If it did, infants would be included.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

By your wrestling of those verses, you prove yourself a heretic. I don’t need authority for this. And all who joins you prove themselves heretical.

I already told you, YOU rely on your council and history.

I rely SOLELY on the HOLY BIBLE.

That’s the difference between you and me. I make no excuses for myself, neither for you. The bible clearly stated that if anybody adds to the book, the person will be cursed. Obviously you are reading BEYOND the Holy Bible.

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[Mannyfit75]

By your wrestling of those verses, you prove yourself a heretic. I don’t need authority for this. And all who joins you prove themselves heretical.

You have no authority to call me a heretic. You are not the Church Council which is modelled right after the Council of Jerusalem.

I already told you, YOU rely on your council and history.

No. I rely on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Teaching of the Catholic Church (teaching office)

I rely SOLELY on the HOLY BIBLE.

Is your interpretation of Scripture correct?

That’s the difference between you and me. I make no excuses for myself, neither for you.

It is and Sola Scriptura does not teach that it is the sole rule of faith.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

If I have to argue with everybody who comes up with a book beyond the Bible, I’d have no time for my breakfast. Same with the muslims, if the quran can be accepted, might as well be a muslim!

Since the Bible is God’s word, I rely ONLY on it. The opinions of others, they can keep to themselves.

Correction, I don’t interpret, I take God’s word as it is.

Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned—

*** The reason why Adam & Eve sinned and had to die for it is precisely because Satan tweaked the words of God in their ears. ‘Thou shalt surely die’ becomes ‘thou shalt not surely die’

.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If I have to argue with everybody who comes up with a book beyond the Bible, I’d have no time for my breakfast. Same with the muslims, if the quran can be accepted, might as well be a muslim!

The Muslims are heretics.

Since the Bible is God’s word, I rely ONLY on it. The opinions of others, they can keep to themselves…

But how do you know the Bible translation you have is the correct one? Who had the authority to compiled it in the first place? The Bible did not fell out of the sky. Second, in the NT the Scripture that the Apostles often referred to is the OT not the complete Bible which contains the both OT and NT.

The books were not put together until the 4th Century by local African Church Synods like Hippo and Carthage and it was later affirmed in later Councils.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

If we even doubt the Bible, how do we become Christians?

You are attempting to claw at the very foundations of the faith. It is bad.

Do you think the disciples were all literate? Do you think the disciples had the bible? No, they didn’t. They don’t have time to argue over such things as “Trinity” or “sinless mary” etc because?

THEY TAKE GOD’S WORD FOR IT.

God made the gospel very simple to understand. It is US who makes is complicated. When we don’t even have to dig out the ‘meanings’ of this or that or whether grace means perfect etc etc etc. Its simple ABC. Otherwise, how do you think even tax collectors and fishermen can be saved???

By wrestling the words of God beyond its intended meaning or beyond what is evident, you are heaping curses on yourself and those who listens to you.

.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

The Muslims are heretics.
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And how do you know that?..they too claim like you that their quran is an extension of the christian texts.

What makes your ‘additional texts’ less suspect?

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[Mannyfit75]

If we even doubt the Bible, how do we become Christians?

You are attempting to claw at the very foundations of the faith. It is bad.

I know the answer to the questions, I have given you. Second, the Bible does not make us Christians. It is our belief that our salvation rest on Jesus Christ is what makes us Christians.

Do you think the disciples were all literate? Do you think the disciples had the bible? No, they didn’t. They don’t have time to argue over such things as “Trinity” or “sinless mary” etc because?

The only Scripture they had was the OT Scripture. Some were illeterate and some were literate. Jesus did not pick Scribs, or the Pharisees as his followers. He pick tax collectors, fishermen, disciples of St. John, the baptists, and sinners.

During the time of Jesus Christ, the mission was saving humanity. Doctrines were not an issue. That became an issue 200 yrs down the road of Christian history. After the Christian persecution, Emperor Constantine issued his Eddict of Milan which ended Christian persecution. Even after the persecution, Christian was on a brink of dividing when a bishop of Constantinople, Arius claimed tha Jesus is a created being and not equal with God, the Father.

So in 325 AD, the Christian bishops gather in Nicea under the direction of Constantine. Constantine let the bishop discuss it because he knows very little about theology. Finally the came with the conclusion, of an orthodox Christian belief of the Trinity. One God, Three Divine Persons.

As for the sinlessness of Mary. The ECF as early as the 3rd Century believed in it and there are interpretation of the Scripture by the ECF that compared Mary as the type of Ark of the Covenant.

THEY TAKE GOD’S WORD FOR IT.

the Church compiled and canonized Scripture in the fourth Century. There 73 Books in all. Protestant Bible only have 66 since they took 7 Deutrocanonical Books in the 1700-1800s.

God made the gospel very simple to understand.

St. Peter disagrees with you.

2 Peter 3:15 and follow states,

[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
[16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
[17] You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
[18] But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Scripture easy to read. No it isn’t. Only those who are taught in Scripture and are ordained ministers by the Church are the only sole interpreters of Scripture. Any one who had earn high level of Scripture had to read Hebrew, Aramaic, and Latin.

It is US who makes is complicated. When we don’t even have to dig out the ‘meanings’ of this or that or whether grace means perfect etc etc etc. Its simple ABC. Otherwise, how do you think even tax collectors and fishermen can be saved???

A tax collector and fisherman can be saved by loving God and obeying his commandments.

By wrestling the words of God beyond its intended meaning or beyond what is evident, you are heaping curses on yourself and those who listens to you.

Are you cursing me? Is that truly Christian behavior? Oh by the way, I am not the one wrestling God’s word here. You are. You seem to lack any knowledge about the concept of the Trinity.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And how do you know that?..they too claim like you that their quran is an extension of the christian texts.

Because Muslims or its founder was influence by Christian heretic. He taken some rejected books by the Church and adhere to certain Gnostic text. He then mixes his beliefs and come up with his own religion.

Second, Jesus that us that there would be no new revelation after him.

Jesus does not lie. So Islam is a false religion.

What makes your ‘additional texts’ less suspect?

Ours are not additional text. They have always been a part of the Christian canon for 2,000 yrs. Even the Eastern Orthodox have more books than we do. The Protestants are the one to blame for removing the Deutrocanonical Books apart from the Christian canon.