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adstrinity
Guest
But, He wasn’t born from anybody else but a perfect Woman.
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a_mirror_dimly
Guest
On what basis do you assert this?
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adstrinity
Guest
On the basis nothing having come up saying He was born from a fisherman or a tax collector. That has NEVER been proposed.
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a_mirror_dimly
Guest
Um, I wasn’t saying that either. Let me restate myself. One common assertions I hear on this issue is that: “Bearing Jesus is the most important role any human but Jesus Himself has ever had or ever will have. Surely God would only choose someone truly exceptional for that task!”
My response was: that logic certainly makes sense from how we generally view the world, important tasks must be given to exceptionally qualified individuals. However, looking through the Bible we see time and time again that God does not choose the exceptional person to carry out His will, but rather those with little apparent qualifications so that no one would ascribe credit to the person themselves, but that all glory would be given to God.
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MDK
Guest
The common denominator is how do these people carry out the tasks, except with God’s grace? After receiving the grace of God, they were exceptional.
What would happen if God gave His grace before we get to know the person? We wouldn’t see the before and after, only the after. We would see an exceptional person.
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a_mirror_dimly
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I’m not sure that I’d say that they were inherently exceptional even with God’s grace, but rather that God made them exceptional or God did exceptional things through them. In either case, the credit and the glory belong to God alone. If the infusion of grace happened before we observed them then we would never know what they would have been like without it, but as with everyone else we would be amiss to ascribe the credit to that person instead of giving all the glory to God.
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MDK
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Peter and the rest of the Apostles were pretty exceptional after Pentecost.
I didn’t see any Catholic on this thread say that Mary is sinless without God’s grace, and somehow she deserves glory belonging to God alone. You are the only one insinuating these ideas for some unknown reason. Mary is a witness to God’s glory and grace, as she rejoiced in God her Savior. Her soul is filled with the glory of God. Catholics believe her own words about who the glory belongs. Your insinuations are simply misplaced and unnecessary. Check out her words upon greeting from Elizabeth as recorded in Luke 1:46…
More to the point, I didn’t make an abstract statement in a vacuum. Do you understand now, how Mary could have been sinless by the Grace of God?
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a_mirror_dimly
Guest
With God all things are possible, but that does not mean that they came to pass. It is certainly not necessary that Mary have been sinless in order for God to come into the world as a man.
However, as to the main point I suppose what I find puzzling is that if you believe all the credit and the glory belongs to God, why are Catholics so interested in extolling the virtue of Mary herself?
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MDK
Guest
Thanks for recognizing God’s unlimited power. Since you believe this, then there is hope for you to come to the truth.
Besides the blanket statement on the omnipotence of God, do you understand now how Mary could be sinless with the Grace of God?
Have to say that you quite simply don’t understand Catholicism, nor what is included in and the understanding inherent in a statement made by Catholics who understand what the Church officially teaches. This is the only thing we are concerned about. In other words, you can misinterpret what someone says, to claim it means something it didn’t. On the other hand, if one is talking about Catholics who don’t understand Church teaching, then we’re simply talking about education…, which is what you seem to also be in need of. You could also do with a dose of humility and respect for truth, and perhaps not being so willing to bear false witness through slanderous insinuation.
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a_mirror_dimly
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I don’t feel this answers my question. If we agree that all of the credit and glory belongs to God, why are Catholics so interested in talking about the virtue of Mary? You say that I don’t understand Catholicism but I asked you a question to try to understand you better and you did not answer it.
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MDK
Guest
I asked you to answer a question twice now, and received no adequate answer. Here’s a third try if you have the courage to answer.
Do you understand now how Mary could be sinless with the Grace of God?
An intelligent person would have recognized my answer to you was to do some homework for yourself. It usually turns out better that way. It also means you’re sincere, rather than simply acting as an uninformed sniper, trying to pick at the truth without having the proper background or foundation to understand it.
Here’s a clue: We are not ignorant to even consider that Mary has grace on her own without God. These ignorant and slanderous ideas come from those who are ignorant (where else would it come from?). The educated Catholic knows that Mary is a shining example of what the Grace of God does in a human who says “yes” to our Father. Is one so ignorant as not to know that everything came from God in the first place? If this is not working knowledge of one, then this is the basis of true ignorance and everything referenced to that will be wrong. We Catholics know better, and are mindful of it.
For consideration, God works through people, does He not? Have you heard that we are His hands and feet? If one of us really says yes to God, and accepts His grace and is a shining example, others who have humility and decency to notice may compliment one on being a good receptacle of God’s grace, and humble son or daughter.
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a_mirror_dimly
Guest
Well, I certainly acknowledge that God is sovereign to distribute His grace as He wills, and that He chose He could do so to such an extent as to shield them from sinning (though such an action would seem to co-opt the free will of the person involved). Does that answer your question?
Oh boy, an insinuation that I must be stupid or belligerent not to respond that way you wanted me too. Please don’t tempt me into uncharitable responses, let us assume the best intentions in one another.
Yes, it is certainly admirable for anyone to submit themselves humbly and obediently to the will of God. I’ve said as much several times on these forums. I think the degree to which we are obedient to God is what is important, not the task to which He calls us. People with humble callings can be as much or more admirable than people with “great” visible callings, it is merely in accordance to their faithfulness to their calling that we should look to them as examples.
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MDK
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No. From you, this is more of a sarcastic dodge using a generic statement.
Kind of projection here. Nevertheless, not as I wanted you to, but as someone who would really be willing to discuss the truth. You had not shown an indication of ability or willingness to do so. As of your last sarcastic response, you still haven’t.
Another slanderous insinuation… but no surprise as you have nothing constructive to bring to the discussion. God’s eighth Commandment means something to me. I ask you to please respect it. Give some evidence of seeking truth, and not of slandering.
You act as though others don’t have the basic understanding to make statements built on a foundation of true faith. This is quite arrogant, and also quite wrong. Among other things, it’s based on a gaping lack of understanding the Catholic faith. I am not interested in teaching someone who is not willing to humbly be open to the truth. If you’re really interested, then you’ll show it by reading the Catechism, and research other good sources, rather than coming to a Catholic forum and making slanderous insinuations fueled by arrogance, projecting ingrained falsehoods and prejudice instead of desire and hunger for truth. The image in the mirror you’re reflecting does not seem to be God. Hopefully, someday it will be.
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a_mirror_dimly
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My initial statement was not sarcastic. That’s my best understand of the question you asked, and I figured that telling you what my understanding is would be more helpful in getting us on the same page than simply stating “yes, I understand” or “no, I don’t”.
I don’t know what I could do to prove to you that my goal is not slander, and therefore I will depart from this conversation. Please forgive me any wounds which I inflicted, for they were not intended.
Peace to you, my brother in Christ
I don’t know what I could do to prove to you that my goal is not slander, and therefore I will depart from this conversation. Please forgive me any wounds which I inflicted, for they were not intended.
Peace to you, my brother in Christ
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Truthfaithlove
Guest
I hear all of your answers, but NONE has rebutted using Scripture!
Notice, that all you fellas are doing is telling me what the Pope had said, what the Council had said and what you believe. NOT what the Bible says!
And those very few who quote scripture swings it out of context without even pinning down on WHY those contexts used were even applicable. You simply superimposed your assumptions onto those verses.
I’ve already said and I say again, ANYBODY…that includes me of course, who deviates from what is written in Biblical Scripture is ACCURSED.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned—
The sheer fact that you are arguing against this verse to force-fit Mary into YOUR puzzle shows something is NOT Right.
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Notice, that all you fellas are doing is telling me what the Pope had said, what the Council had said and what you believe. NOT what the Bible says!
And those very few who quote scripture swings it out of context without even pinning down on WHY those contexts used were even applicable. You simply superimposed your assumptions onto those verses.
I’ve already said and I say again, ANYBODY…that includes me of course, who deviates from what is written in Biblical Scripture is ACCURSED.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned—
- Now, I am NOT assuming. I take the above as it is. Can YOU FELLAS do the same? If you so much as deviate even a little from the above declaration, you are essentially a Heretic.
The sheer fact that you are arguing against this verse to force-fit Mary into YOUR puzzle shows something is NOT Right.
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rinnie
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Blessed are you among women and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.
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Peter_J
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I’m guessing this is a joke, but I just don’t get it.
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jmcrae
Guest
No, but it is fitting. Just as it is fitting that His message be proclaimed by men who have a gift of languages, and a gift of preaching - which all of the Apostles had, as of the moment of Pentecost. Before that, yes, they were a bunch of fumbling, illiterate fishermen, etc., but at the moment of Pentecost, they were better than the best educated men in the whole world. Why? Because God made them that way.
Just as He made Mary to be without sin and full of grace, so that she could be a fit mother for Him.
Because she said “Yes” and she cooperated with God’s grace - if she had not done so, then Jesus could not have come into the world, and we would still be bound in our sins and bound for Hell. What if Mary had said, “Sounds neat, but I don’t think so, Angel Gabriel - I’ve got my exams coming up, and I’m in the choir; I really don’t have time for a baby, right now. Besides, what would Joseph think? We’re supposed to get married, you know. No way - can’t do it! Sorry!”
We extol the virtues of many men and women who only did what they knew they were supposed to do - we call them “heroes” for doing much less important things than bringing the Saviour of the World to birth, and protecting Him from all harm until he reached adulthood. Why not extol her virtues? Everyone else gets to be honoured for this and that; why not her?
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Good_Fella
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If anyone adds to or takes away from what John writes in Revelations will be cursed. You’re adding to and taking away from what God has revealed in his spoken word through the universal Catholic Apostolic Church, so you may be cursed.
Read Acts 15. The Church declares what is truly revealed by the Holy Spirit through the Church leaders and councils, not through the written scriptures to each and every private individual like yourself.
The Bible is not your authority. The bottom line is, you have made yourself the final arbiter of divine truth by relying solely on your own limited understanding and fallible interpretation of Scripture. You have appointed yourself as the authority to declare doctrines and establish your own anti-dogmas in contravention of 2000 years of Sacred Tradition.
Peter refers to heretical people like you who believe that their private interpretation of the scriptures is the sole medium of divine revelation:
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
2 Peter 3, 15-16
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Truthfaithlove
Guest
By what you wrote, you show us you don’t know the way of God.No, but it is fitting. Just as it is fitting that His message be proclaimed by men who have a gift of languages, and a gift of preaching - which all of the Apostles had, as of the moment of Pentecost. Before that, yes, they were a bunch of fumbling, illiterate fishermen, etc., but at the moment of Pentecost, they were better than the best educated men in the whole world. Why? Because God made them that way.
Just as He made Mary to be without sin and full of grace, so that she could be a fit mother for Him.
Because she said “Yes” and she cooperated with God’s grace - if she had not done so, then Jesus could not have come into the world, and we would still be bound in our sins and bound for Hell. What if Mary had said, “Sounds neat, but I don’t think so, Angel Gabriel - I’ve got my exams coming up, and I’m in the choir; I really don’t have time for a baby, right now. Besides, what would Joseph think? We’re supposed to get married, you know. No way - can’t do it! Sorry!”
We extol the virtues of many men and women who only did what they knew they were supposed to do - we call them “heroes” for doing much less important things than bringing the Saviour of the World to birth, and protecting Him from all harm until he reached adulthood. Why not extol her virtues? Everyone else gets to be honoured for this and that; why not her?
God NEVER makes a person this way or THAT way. If He did, there’d be no freedom of choice. The righteous are led by faith. Men of God get inspired, they don’t BECOME something else or suddenly have certain abilities they previously never had. All powers come from God, men of God works the will of God by allowing His will to be performed through them.
If like you say God deliberately turns a person into something/someone, then you are incriminating God into even Adam’s sins, Moses’ lapse of faith at Rephidim or even Satan’s fall from grace.
It is God’s will for mankind to be saved, if God had a deliberate hand in manipulating people into doing things, it will not require God to even will it…It just gets done, you won’t even need to preach to people. Why? Because God will tell EVERYBODY in their dreams!
*** Mary was born in sin just like all of us. By saying she was uniquely made sinless you are nullifying Christ’s salvation grace for her. If she has no sin, she would not require the blood of Christ to be saved. Additionally, her OTHER children would also be sinless or half-sinned (because of Joseph) because their mother had no original sin. You are clearly warping the entire concept of Redemption for mankind.
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