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Scientiphic
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Just answer me…WHERE DID THE CREATOR COME FROM? :hammering:
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Oh golly here we go, the ad hom attacks that mark the true pillar of Catholic debate techniques. All who object to Mariology are women haters, mother haters, and God knows what’s new this week? 
You want proof that Mary was a sinner, read Luke 18:19 (and its parallel verses) or Romans 3:23. But I know the RCC has an elaborate explanation for why this doesn’t apply to Mary, or why Mary was perfect yet not exactly perfect.
Simple answer, Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh, but obviously did not incarnate His divinity. No elaborate mystery here.
But maybe Scott Hahn can set me straight
You want proof that Mary was a sinner, read Luke 18:19 (and its parallel verses) or Romans 3:23. But I know the RCC has an elaborate explanation for why this doesn’t apply to Mary, or why Mary was perfect yet not exactly perfect.
Simple answer, Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh, but obviously did not incarnate His divinity. No elaborate mystery here.
But maybe Scott Hahn can set me straight
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Scientiphic
Guest
So if Mary did not incarnate the ‘DIVINITY’ part…how does that make Mary the mother of GOD ??? :hammering: (you said it was obviousOh golly here we go, the ad hom attacks that mark the true pillar of Catholic debate techniques. All who object to Mariology are women haters, mother haters, and God knows what’s new this week?
You want proof that Mary was a sinner, read Luke 18:19 (and its parallel verses) or Romans 3:23. But I know the RCC has an elaborate explanation for why this doesn’t apply to Mary, or why Mary was perfect yet not exactly perfect.
Simple answer, Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh, but obviously did not incarnate His divinity. No elaborate mystery here.
But maybe Scott Hahn can set me straight
)
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placido
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Scientiphic
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It says “In the beginning…”. So the creator is the beginning. So how does Mary fit in as the creator’s mother?
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sola_scriptura
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So you’re saying Mary created God? So then wouldn’t that make her God? Wasn’t Mary created by God, not the other way around?So if Mary did not incarnate the ‘DIVINITY’ part…how does that make Mary the mother of GOD ??? :hammering: (you said it was obvious
Mary was the chosen vessel of God to give birth to Christ. The Holy Spirit both fertilized the egg that became Christ and implanted the divinity of Christ in her womb (if we must be explicit). However, Jesus also preexisted before Mary was even born. Hopefully you see what I’m driving at.
If you read the Council of Ephesus’ wording when they coined Mary the Mother of God it acknowledges all these things – although I personally think it was perhaps a poor choice of words. I think mother of our Lord in the flesh would have served us better, but again the councils elaboration on this is fine with me (I just think the title is a little misleading unless one takes the time to read the councils very explicit language used to define this doctrine).
Just to be clear I’m not divining up the divinity and humanity of Jesus (a favorite Catholic red herring for all who oppose its Mariology).
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placido
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You are still free to consider those who degrade women to the level of mere vessels as women lovers and mother lovers. BTW, if “Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh, but obviously did not incarnate His divinity” then the incarnation did not take place. Is that what you mean or where and when did the incarnation take place?Oh golly here we go, the ad hom attacks that mark the true pillar of Catholic debate techniques. All who object to Mariology are women haters, mother haters, and God knows what’s new this week?
You want proof that Mary was a sinner, read Luke 18:19 (and its parallel verses) or Romans 3:23. But I know the RCC has an elaborate explanation for why this doesn’t apply to Mary, or why Mary was perfect yet not exactly perfect.
Simple answer, Mary gave birth to Jesus in the flesh, but obviously did not incarnate His divinity. No elaborate mystery here.
But maybe Scott Hahn can set me straight
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Mary did not create the divinity of Christ. He was incarnated into the flesh, but Jesus existed before His physical birth (I’m hoping you agree). Moreover, the fact is Mary viewed herself as a bondservant of the Lord (see Luke 1:38). The fact is we’re all vessels of God, whether we’re a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath (see Romans 9). So it’s quite ludicrous to try and couch this is as some sort of women’s rights issue. I mean for God’s sake, it’s an absurd line of reasoning & it’s a classic straw man argument.
Frankly using such a bizarre argument makes the weakness of your reasoning shine.
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Scientiphic
Guest
Well, since we now all agree that Mary had no role in giving Jesus his divinity and that she was a vessel used.
Our next question is should we now all agree that Mary was NOT the mother of the God? Since God is divine and she had no role in providing that divinity.’
If you cannot agree, what is your difficulty?
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placido
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Unless you believe in multiple gods, Isaiah 7:14 and 9:6 talks about the birth of a Son, born of a virgin mind you, and that Son is Mighty God. Against this beackground your question of “how does Mary fit in as the creator’s mother?” becomes irrelevant.
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Scientiphic
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Oh placido, you cannot revoke my question by raising up the concept of polytheism. Because we should all be Monotheists here.
Unless you now decide to embrace idolatry.
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placido
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sola_scriptura
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Why does this matter to you so much? The reasoning used by the council of Ephesus is fine (Google it and check out the language for yourself). The title Mother of God might not be the best language, but this whole discussion is semantics.
I see no substantive issue being addressed. What happened to the OP topic? Mary was not sinless, the RCC is wrong. She cannot intercede on our behalf, the RCC is wrong again.
Simple, Luke 18:19 and Romans 3:23 – case closed!
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sola_scriptura
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and those verses mean Mary created God? I mean come on – say it, Mary did not create God. Study the RCC doctrine on this issue, they also acknowledge that Mary did not create God. The Council of Ephesus used the wording to dispel the Nestorian heresy (if it really even did rise to the level of heretical – I’m still sort of divided on the issue). I disagree with Nestorius don’t get me wrong, but a heretic?
The church at Rome loved tossing around that word; I mean they even called Origen a heretic, which is ludicrous. This whole debate is doing nothing but engaging in meaningless semantics to drive us away from the instant issue – I say again Mary was a sinner!
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placido
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The Bible says:
- A son was born of a virgin [Mary]; Scientiphic says “Yes/No”.
- The Son is Mighty God; Scientiphic says “No”.
The logical question to be asked is whether you believe that the “Mighty God” of Isaiah 9:6 is different from the Creator? If, yes, then you are a polytheist.
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adstrinity
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Just to be clear, Mary the Mother of God is 100%, Immaculately Conceieved, free from all sin, perfect. Mary IS perfect and She has been Her entire life.
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placido
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Who said Mary created God? From when is a mother a creator?
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sola_scriptura
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Negative – Mary was a sinner just like you and me. Only God is perfect (see Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, etc.).
There was no immaculate conception!
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adstrinity
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Mary is not a sinner, was not a sinner, never entertained the idea to sin, and did not have the propensity to sin. She was/is perfect as Her Father in Heaven is perfect.
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Scientiphic
Guest
Well, its YOU against the word of God!
Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
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