Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Scientiphic]

This is what Nestorius argued 1500 years ago. The problem is that if Jesus wasn’t God when he came out of Mary’s womb, then he “became” God later. That is heresy. Jesus was fully God and fully human from the instant of his conception. If you concede that, you can’t get around the fact that God was born of a woman. This is the whole point of the Christian religion – that God became one of us in order to die for us on the cross.

The president was president when he came out of that filthy hut too. So? You’re not answering the question. I guess to you that makes him a resident of the Hut?

 

[ncgolf]

Thanks for the information. But know what the Bible says?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:

All that you mentioned…gestation…etc. NOTHING.

I don’t mean to offend, but its very clear in the Bible that the flesh is USELESS. And Jesus is God not because of what Mary contributed because Jesus is already God even before the conception. So, whatever function she served in giving ‘birth’’ does not attribute her with the title - Mother of God.

IN FACT, the Bible NEVER says she’s the mother of God…at best Elizabeth only said ‘mother of my lord’. LOOOOOOK…its not mother of God.

Please don’t quote Scripture out of context … John 6 63 has nothing to do with this topic … this is the problem with a slinging arrow approach to Bible interpretation.

 

[Gamera]

The president was president when he came out of that filthy hut. So? That makes him a resident of that Hut?

“Resident” doesn’t make sense because not everyone who walks out of a hut lived there. But he was an occupant of the hut for however long he was inside it, yes.

Under your analogy, the whole president didn’t walk through the hut door, just his body did. When the president walks through the hut door, ALL of him passes through the door – body, mind, heart, spirit, soul.

When Jesus was born, ALL of Him passed through Mary’s womb – body, mind, spirit, soul. Not just “flesh.” A woman doesn’t give birth to a person’s “flesh.” A woman gives birth to a person.

 

[Gamera]

I don’t mean to offend, but its very clear in the Bible that the flesh is USELESS. And Jesus is God not because of what Mary contributed because Jesus is already God even before the conception.

Right!!! We agree!!! Mary didn’t “make” Jesus God. She didn’t create God. She carried and gave birth to God, the same God who had existed for countless ages before Mary was even born, the same God who created Mary.

 

[Scientiphic]

Great! The flesh profiteth nothing. What does that have to do with anything here? Either Mary is God’s mother (NOT creator) or she wasn’t. The whole point of the Incarnation is that God became one of us, like us in all things but sin. If he lacked a mother, he wouldn’t be like us in all things but sin.

Like all marian doctrines, this is all about Who Jesus is. He was a man, just like us except sinless. He also is God, the Alpha and the Omega.

And the whole point of this thread is about whether Mary was sinless and designated as an intercessor and she wasn’t.

 

[Gamera]

And the whole point of this thread is about whether Mary was sinless and designated as an intercessor and she wasn’t.

Yes she was.

Like my debate skills?

 

[Scientiphic]

“Resident” doesn’t make sense because not everyone who walks out of a hut lived there. But he was an occupant of the hut for however long he was inside it, yes.

Under your analogy, the whole president didn’t walk through the hut door, just his body did. When the president walks through the hut door, ALL of him passes through the door – body, mind, heart, spirit, soul.

When Jesus was born, ALL of Him passed through Mary’s womb – body, mind, spirit, soul. Not just “flesh.” A woman doesn’t give birth to a person’s “flesh.” A woman gives birth to a person.

The point is, not everyone who comes out of a place or person for that matter was resident or made in that location. Sometimes the place/person is used as a ‘terminal transfer’’ especially when the person already is what He is before and after the exit. So calling the ‘terminal transfer’ as the mother is itself an error. Like what someone here said. She should perhaps be called a bearer.

 

[Gamera]

The point is, not everyone who comes out of a place or person for that matter was resident or made in that location. Sometimes the place/person is used as a ‘terminal transfer’’ especially when the person already is what He is before and after the exit. So calling the ‘terminal transfer’ as the mother is itself an error. Like what someone here said. She should perhaps be called a bearer.

But the Bible calls her “mother.” “…they saw the child with Mary his mother …” Matt 2:11. “But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother …” John 19:25. So if the Bible calls her, “mother,” why can’t we?

 

[Scientiphic]

But the Bible calls her “mother.” “…they saw the child with Mary his mother …” Matt 2:11. “But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother …” John 19:25. So if the Bible calls her, “mother,” why can’t we?

Let’s put it this way. If the president decides to learn plumbing from a toilet washer woman, that woman becomes his teacher or should you wish to elevate her further, the Lecturer of the President. Some who wishes to elevate her even further may call her Queen of the Presidency.

Now, what is her rightful ‘title’?

 

[Gamera]

Let’s put it this way. If the president decides to learn plumbing from a toilet washer woman, that woman becomes his teacher or should you wish to elevate her further, the Lecturer of the President. Some who wishes to elevate her even further may call her Queen of the Presidency.

Now, what is her rightful ‘title’?

She has many rightful titles (one of my favorites is “handmaid of the Lord.”) But the title which best summarizes her role is the Greek word theotokos, which means “God-bearer.” Again, she bore God. She didn’t create God. She was the woman through whom God was born as a man.

 

[rinnie]

Galatians 3:11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

But you said no man is righteous. Remember?

 

[rinnie]

Why can’t People understand that Jesus did not leave us the Bible. He left us the Church. That is why the Catholic Church is here to show us what the teachings meant. Why in the world did Jesus leave the Church and the teachings to Peter and the Apostles if we did not need them. He told the Apostles go and teach. Make disciples of all nations. He never said here is a book give to all to figure on thier own. That is why so much trouble is caused because People do not want to listen to the teachers of the Church they want to do what they want. It does not work. Just read what people on this thread alone have said, and then hung themselves. Just read scientiphic alone. He said one thing, then another, You can not do this, we do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit. Only the Priest, etc that have been selected by Jesus can do this.

 

[sola_scriptura]

This is where the double standard of Protestantism comes in. Orthodox and heterodox Protestants accept the Catholic Church’s dogma of the Trinity, but reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception and the doctrine of Mary’s intercessory role in the economy of salvation. If the Church is wrong in her Marian teachings, then how can Protestants be sure that the Church hasn’t erred in her Trinitarian and Christological doctrines? By arguing from the scriptures? If the scriptures are a sure guide, then how on earth have all these heresies arisen? And if there is no central Apostolic teaching authority of the Church or in Christendom, then who can know with certainty in his religious persuasion that his belief is the true one: baptism, the Eucharist, dispensationalism, marriage and divorce, etc?

First Mariology is not necessary to support Trinitarian doctrine. Secondly, the so called heresies you point were in some cases mere disagreements over fairly complex theological issues. For instance, Nestorius. I disagree with him, however, I certainly do not think it rose to the level of heresy. The same case with Origen. So frankly all protestants do not agree with everything labeled heretical by the ancient church. As a Calvinist certainly I would agree Pelasius’ doctrines were heretical, however, many protestants would disagree with me (and in fact the RCC and EOC has veered back toward his doctrines anyway). I mean seriously it took the church almost 800 years to finally agree it’s okay to venerate paintings and statutes, in clear violation of the second commandment.

The reformation occurred due to much more profound issues and Martin Luther was certainly justified in his rebellion. Since our schism the Catholic Church (the Roman Rite in particular) has embarked down a theological slippery slope, which IMO has been mostly due to her arrogance.

The immaculate conception (or the immaculate invention as I like to term it) is a 20th century innovation. Papal infallibility a 19th century innovation. These teachings enjoy no apostolic support – how do I know? Well for one they both came 1,900 years after the apostles were dead and buried (I might remind you all killed by the hands of Rome).

 

[Gamera]

The immaculate conception (or the immaculate invention as I like to term it) is a 20th century innovation.

The Immaculate Conception was dogmatically defined in 1854.

 

[placido]

Mother. NOT creator. I explained this pages back.

A creator is the one who creates. God alone creates every human being.

A mother is a woman who conceives, carries, and gives birth to a child.

“Mother” does not mean “creator.” Mary conceived Jesus and gave birth to Him. She is therefore His mother. Motherhood does not imply creation, but conception, gestation and birth.

A mother gives birth to a person, not just to the person’s body, but to a whole person (body, mind, soul). To claim otherwise is to deny that a whole person emerges from the womb. Would I dare tell my mother that she didn’t give birth to me, just to my body? How absurd!

To deny that Mary is the mother of God is to deny the Incarnation. It is to deny (as did ancient heretics) that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from the moment of His conception in Mary’s womb.

Jesus was fully God and fully human from the moment of His conception. He wasn’t a man who later became God. He wasn’t a spirit in the appearance of a man. He was fully God and fully human. Jesus was born from Mary’s womb, so Mary is the mother — not the creator, but the mother — of God.

That is what I tried to tell him but you said it better!

 

[rinnie]

Now, Back to Post Can Mary Be sinnless and Intercede for you?

Answer YES. No Only Can has.

I have went to the Blessed Mother ALL of my life. Where is my proof? Let me put it this way, I have never asked the Blessed Mother for help and been rejected EVER. Where in the bible does it say we must, it does not, where in the bible say we cannot, it does not. So here is MO on this.

When I am troubled and stress and anxiety has taken over my life I go into my Room. I pray and ask her to go with me to God and pray for me also to help me get through this. I could do what most of the world does today I could go to the Dr and get pills. I could also pay thousands to Therapy, and maybe someday I may need that. But I don/t think so.

The Blessed Mother is my pill. my therapy, and unlike the pills and Dr’s She works. She has never failed anyone who has asked for her assistance.

So my point, Must you ask for her help, No. But WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO. All you have to do is believe and trust in her love for you. But here is the best part, I have never came out after Praying and asking for her help and not felt 100% relief that help was on the way. I wish someone could take my blood pressure before and after. I bet you would see alot of drug companies, and Dr’s not as busy that’s for sure.

 

[Good_Fella]

And the whole point of this thread is about whether Mary was sinless and designated as an intercessor and she wasn’t.

And coming to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
Luke 1, 28

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled, but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 [A.D. 388]

You are all fair, my love; there is no flaw in you.
Song 4, 7

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
Luke 1, 42

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 [A.D. 370]

*When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, * “They have no wine.”
John 2, 3

Then Bethsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right.“There is one small favour I would ask of you,” she said, “Do not refuse me.” “Ask it, my mother. I will not refuse you.”
1 Kings 2, 19-20

*His mother said to the servers, * “Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 5

“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.”
Theoteknos of Livias, Assumption 291 [ante A.D. 560]

“She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the Seraphim, is placed near to God.”
John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity [ante A.D. 749]

“Let us approach with confident spirit the throne of the high Priest, where he is our victim, priest, advocate, and judge.”
Robert Paschasius, On the Assumption [ante A.D. 786]

“For she who brought forth the source of mercy, Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, receiving from him all things, will and through him, grant the wishes of all.”
Paul the Deacon [ante A.D. 799]

Yes, she is!

 

[placido]

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:

All that you mentioned…gestation…etc. NOTHING.

I don’t mean to offend, but its very clear in the Bible that the flesh is USELESS. And Jesus is God not because of what Mary contributed because Jesus is already God even before the conception.

At long last we can now see that you totally reject the incarnation!

So, whatever function she served in giving ‘birth’’ does not attribute her with the title - Mother of God.

But the Bible says the son of the virgin is Mighty God. In other words, the virgin is the mother of God. To deny is this is to be blatantly anti-Bible.

IN FACT, the Bible NEVER says she’s the mother of God…at best Elizabeth only said ‘mother of my lord’. LOOOOOOK…its not mother of God.

Fine … she is “the mother of my lord”. Who is this “lord” refered to by the Holy Spirit-filled Elizabeth? Not Jesus according to you; Jesus according to the Bible.

 

[placido]

The president was president when he came out of that filthy hut too. So? You’re not answering the question. I guess to you that makes him a resident of the Hut?

Was the president in the filthy hut for nine months. If not, then you are deliberately using a wrong analogy.

 

[placido]

Let’s put it this way. If the president decides to learn plumbing from a toilet washer woman, that woman becomes his teacher or should you wish to elevate her further, the Lecturer of the President. Some who wishes to elevate her even further may call her Queen of the Presidency.

Now, what is her rightful ‘title’?

Enough of your plumbing analogy … the Bible says Mary is Jesus’ mother and Jesus is God - period!