Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[Peter_J]

Not so. Just as we have eyewitnesses to Lincoln’ assignation who are all dead we do believe he was murdered because the accounts are historically trustworthy. So it is with the gospel accounts for His ascension which tells of eyewitnesses witnessing this.

Right. And we accept 1 Peter because it’s in the bible – but our basis for saying that it’s in the bible is the witness of the 4th century Christians.

As I’ve said before, Sufficiency of Scripture does not equal Sola Scriptura.

 

[happilycatholic]

**“For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor.” St. John Chrysostom
**

Excuse me? Just what evil did I speak?

 

[Good_Fella]

Not so. Just as we have eyewitnesses to Lincoln’ assassination who are all dead we do believe he was murdered because the accounts are historically trustworthy. So it is with the gospel accounts for His ascension which tells of eyewitnesses witnessing this.

A bonafide historian wouldn’t agree with you. Lincoln’s death can be confirmed whereas the resurrection and ascension of Jesus remain articles of faith. The Jews still believe that the Christian “sect” in Palestine stole Jesus’ body from the tomb to make it appear he had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven so that Jesus’ teachings would hopefully penetrate and influence the Judaic hierarchy into issuing major religious reforms. They reject what they regard as a fabricated claim that people had actually witnessed these events. Now with Lincoln it matters less that people had witnessed his assassination and their reports could be substantiated. A corpse with a bullet hole in it is enough to go on. But an empty tomb and the alleged claims of a few individuals harboring private interests provide no historical confirmation. We simply believe what we wish to believe, believing it is by the grace of God that we do believe.

We “believe” that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, notwithstanding eye-witness accounts. It is the entire gospel message that appeals to us. Christians would still believe in the resurrection and ascension of Christ even if these events were only inferred by the original Eleven on account of an empty tomb. We “know” that Abraham Lincoln was assassinated in a theater by historical confirmation. The resurrection and ascension of Jesus is no less an article of faith as is the assumption of Mary and her present intercessory role exercised in heaven. No article of faith rests on eye-witness reports but on the Spirit of the Word. We don’t necessarily have to believe the unsubstantiated claims of a group of fishermen. But we accept their eye-witness reports because the entire gospel message appeals to our spiritual sensibilities.

PAX :tiphat:

 

[happilycatholic]

I may be confused but its not about the Scriptures but Catholic doctrines and claims.

I have never asserted the Bible is God. It is however His word to men. I believe its message because the One Who died and rose again demonstrated and taught that it is the Truth and will not pass away.

It also helps us to grow in respect to salvation. See I Peter 2:2. We are to have the words of Christ richly dwell in us—“16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.” (Colossians 3:16). The only place to find the words of Christ are found in the Scriptures alone.

The reason an atheist or a non-christian will not believe or understand its message is because they are still in their unsaved state and consider the Scriptures foolishness. This is borne out in I Corinthians 2: 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

It contains the sum of my Christian beliefs and is the foundation. It is also the light for my path that keeps Christ in focus. Without it Christians would be in darkness and not be wise unto Christ.

Lets assume you are correct. Are you saying that because you eat the Eucharist it makes you more holy and Christ-like? Does it increase your knowledge of Christ after every time you eat of it? Does the mere eating of it grant you eternal life?

Then what am I to make of this passage in Romans 10: 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Trust me. I love the Scriptures and thank God for them but I have never elevated them to the position of worship by praying to them.

JustAsking: I am not saying you are not a devout Christian, by your posts you certainly are. My problem with your posts is that you constantly attack catholic beliefs and question them to no end.

I have tested you. I have gone onto several threads and posted various replies and there you are again and again attacking with relentlessness our beliefs and Traditions.

I am perfectly okay with you being who and what you are and admire your faith in Scripture and your determination, but you will never turn me away from my Church no matter how hard you try. Because I don’t look to you and your interpretations for my faith.

Believe me, I know the Bible as well as any average individual who is intellectually engaged in their faith and I love my Bible as well. I am not taking anything away from the Bible. I just don’t believe that it is the only source of God’s Word. And I certainly don’t believe that just because it doesn’t have a directive from God telling me to venerate the mother of Christ, that it’s wrong to do so.

As far as your replies… I’m only going to pick out one of your questions to answer because it sticks out to me particularly. Do I believe I’m more holy and Christ-like because I receive the Eucharist? No, of course not. I certainly am not one to think I’m more holy than one single person on the earth. There was absolutely nothing in my statement about the Body and Blood of Christ that should have led you to those questions so I am assuming it is something within yourself that led you to ask them. I simply said I am sustained by the Blood of the Lamb.

Are you not?

 

[happilycatholic]

Realcatholicgk:
Hi Rob.

 

[Good_Fella]

JustAsking: Believe me, I know the Bible as well as any average individual who is intellectually engaged in their faith and I love my Bible as well. I am not taking anything away from the Bible. I just don’t believe that it is the only source of God’s Word. And I certainly don’t believe that just because it doesn’t have a directive from God telling me to venerate the mother of Christ, that it’s wrong to do so.

I think it’s time JA4 learns if the angel Gabriel can venerate Mary with his singular salutation “Hail, full of grace,” then so must we.
:harp:

 

[justasking4]

I think it’s time JA4 learns if the angel Gabriel can venerate Mary with his singular salutation “Hail, full of grace,” then so must we.
:harp:

It is absolutely amazing how a greeting of an angel to Mary has turned into all the various doctrines and titles of Mary.

 

[AshleyBelle]

It is absolutely amazing how a greeting of an angel to Mary has turned into all the various doctrines and titles of Mary.

It’s amazing how the production of Bibles increasing so we could all have personal access to the Sacred Scriptures has turned into Bible worship!

• I want to clarify, I don’t believe protestants worship the Bible. But I am trying to illustrate how you are treating Catholics and our devotion to our Lady.*

Isn’t it amazing that one man with somewhat good intentions towards mending real problems he saw in the church, could become an instrument of leading millions upon millions of believers AWAY from Christ, under the pretense of reforming the gospel?

I’m pretty sure Christ’s gospel was pretty good without men trying to reform it.

 

[justasking4]

It’s amazing how the production of Bibles increasing so we could all have personal access to the Sacred Scriptures has turned into Bible worship!

What are the charactistics of a person who worships the Bible?

Do you know presonally anyone who does?

 

[happilycatholic]

I think it’s time JA4 learns if the angel Gabriel can venerate Mary with his singular salutation “Hail, full of grace,” then so must we.
:harp:

Hallelujah!

 

[justasking4]

I think it’s time JA4 learns if the angel Gabriel can venerate Mary with his singular salutation “Hail, full of grace,” then so must we.
:harp:

Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was being venerated by the angel?

 

[justasking4]

It’s amazing how the production of Bibles increasing so we could all have personal access to the Sacred Scriptures has turned into Bible worship!

• I want to clarify, I don’t believe protestants worship the Bible. But I am trying to illustrate how you are treating Catholics and our devotion to our Lady.*

Isn’t it amazing that one man with somewhat good intentions towards mending real problems he saw in the church, could become an instrument of leading millions upon millions of believers AWAY from Christ, under the pretense of reforming the gospel?

I’m pretty sure Christ’s gospel was pretty good without men trying to reform it.

If you are referring to Luther you might want to read up before the Reformation. Start at least a couple of hundred years before him. If you have not you will find yourself shocked.

 

[AshleyBelle]

If you are referring to Luther you might want to read up before the Reformation. Start at least a couple of hundred years before him. If you have not you will find yourself shocked.

Yay! Another "you need to read your reformation and pre-reformation" history poster!!!!

Guanophore, where are you my friend? Didn’t I promise I’d join a monastary far far away from the internet if anybody asked me to do this again?

I need to talk to you…because I have three children who I could use some extended babysitting for

 

[Realcatholicgk]

It permeates the Scriptures. Lets use Paul as an example:
• After his conversion, he immediately “baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus was the Christ”: (Acts 9.22)
• “He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews…” (Acts 9.29)
• He appeals to eye-witnesses often for his claims (Acts 13.31; I Cor 15)
• He appeals to seasonal patterns as evidence of God’s character (Acts 14. 17)
• He appeals to concrete experiences even in theological debates (Acts 15.12)
• “he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead” (Acts 17.2-3)

He is one of the many examples in scripture that we are to follow.

Are there others? Would we follow him before Jesus? Who does this apply to? How are we as individuals to apply this warning to ourselves? Could Paul be the anti-crist mentioned in Rev? This claim of yuors cannot be sustained by Scripture for the mere fact it does not completely followed the Scripture’s teachings and practices.

Who does this apply to? How are we as individuals to apply this warning to ourselves?

**Just follow the CC and you as an individual will be fine! **

This fails the exhortation of Scripture that warned that false teachers would come into the church itself and deceive many. We must always be on guard even among our own churches.
If you just accept what your church says then you are not living by this exhortation.

Yes! Excellent insight. Yea, I would watch your church if I were you. It isn’t very old and filled with false teachings! It probably bears a lot of watching, people trying to gain wealth by selling God! Yup, it bears watching! ! Thank God for the CC! We are guided by the HS so we are fine! {/B]

This claim cannot be sustained by Scripture for the mere fact the Catholic church has not completely followed the Scriptures with some of its teachings and practices.

**
Thank you for your opinion. I wrote it down. If we need any help with our religion we will refer to the list of people who’s opinion doesn’t matter and see if we can use anything you provided!**

i agree. However men can and are. There is a long history in your church to support this

**Not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify?I can’t think of any where in the Scriptures where this is said. Do you have a reference? Do you claim to know and understand what your church teaches perfectly? Do you claim to obey perfectly? **

.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Excuse me? Just what evil did I speak?

[SIGN]
"For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor." St. John Chrysostom[/SIGN]

**Hi Happily,

That wasn’t directed at you, Buddy!! You “may have” been talking to the “evil speaker!” Or he may just be playing as he asks for answers to the same 20 or 25 questions over and over again! I like him and think he is only playing! No one couldbe that evil! Eerrr, could he? **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was being venerated by the angel?

**QUOTE=Good Fella]
*I think it’s time JA4 learns if the angel Gabriel can venerate Mary with his singular salutation “Hail, full of grace,” then so must we. *
:harp:
**

Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was being venerated by the angel?

**

Yes, and so does scripture, my Bible thumping friend! Verb 1.venerate -** regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; reverence, revere, fear, esteem, respect, value, prise, prize - regard highly; think much of;

However, now knowing that and the saluation from the angel to mary You will of course deny it by one of several things:

1. It wasn’t a angel!
2. He was talking to the baby even though he said Hail Mary!
3. Just because he said that it isn’t considered veneration "regard with feelings of respect " because the defination didn’t come from a protestant bible
4. You will say “Who does this apply to? How are we as individuals to apply this event to ourselves”?

So, what does God’s teaching to us all mean to you? Not a thing I am sure!

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine.

Could St Augustine have actually been prophetizing, about people of the Protestant persuasion coming 1,000 years later?

 

[AshleyBelle]

**"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine. **

Could St Augustine have actually been prophetizing, about protestant denominations coming 1,000 years later?

Wow I had never read that quote before! Hmmmmm could be a good signature line… Thanks for sharing this

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Wow I had never read that quote before! Hmmmmm could be a good signature line… Thanks for sharing this

**Hi Ashley,

My parish is named after his mother St Monica. She prayed for 33 years for his conversion. He was very wise, and funny!

Saint Augustine of Hippo. (354 - 430).

“Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe” --. Saint Augustine

“Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” – Saint Augustine

“O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet” – Saint Augustine

“Give me chastity and continence, but not just now”. --St. Augustine

“In the absence of justice, what is sovereignty but organized robbery?” St. Augustine

“Miracles happen, not in opposition to nature, but in opposition to what we know of nature.” – St. Augustine

“The world is a great book; he who never stirs from home reads only a page.” --St. Augustine

“The purpose of all war is peace.” – St. Augustine

“Eat me. I am the bread of the strong. But you will not transform me and make me part of you. Rather, I will transform you And make you part of ME”- St Augustine:thumbsup:

There are many sites with his quotes, he was awesome! He also thought Mary was Sinless and Intercedes for us.
( The OP Rules! )**

 

[guanophore]

No, two totally different things. Scripture warns that individual false teachers would come into the Church, you’re correct about that, but nowhere does Scripture say that the entire church as a whole is capable of error. Being on the lookout for individual false teachers within the Church is not the same thing as “being on guard” against the entire Church itself. Of course we “just accept what our Church says,” precisely because the Church as a whole is incapable of false teaching. You are taking individual Scripture verses which warn against individual false teachers within the Church, and extrapolating a notion that we are supposed to “be on guard against” the entire Church. Such a notion is utterly foreign to the Scriptures.

this is so well worded, Gamera, I am going to save it to a file, and repost it every time she levels that charge.

 

[happilycatholic]

[SIGN]
"For what does it profit if we abstain from fish and fowl and yet bite and devour our brothers and sisters? The evil speaker eats the flesh of his brother and bites the body of his neighbor." St. John Chrysostom[/SIGN]

**Hi Happily,

That wasn’t directed at you, Buddy!! You “may have” been talking to the “evil speaker!” Or he may just be playing as he asks for answers to the same 20 or 25 questions over and over again! I like him and think he is only playing! No one couldbe that evil! Eerrr, could he? **

Oh, okay.