Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

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AshleyBelle said:
Isn’t it amazing that one man with somewhat good intentions towards mending real problems he saw in the church, could become an instrument of leading millions upon millions of believers AWAY from Christ, under the pretense of reforming the gospel?

I’m pretty sure Christ’s gospel was pretty good without men trying to reform it.
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The Gospel of Christ never contained this papal addition:

Hence, if anyone shall dare – which God forbid! – to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart.
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:hmmm:
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happilycatholic said:
Excuse me? Just what evil did I speak?
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I believe that was addressed to ja4.
happilycatholic said:
JustAsking: I am not saying you are not a devout Christian, by your posts you certainly are. My problem with your posts is that you constantly attack catholic beliefs and question them to no end.

I have tested you. I have gone onto several threads and posted various replies and there you are again and again attacking with relentlessness our beliefs and Traditions.

I am perfectly okay with you being who and what you are and admire your faith in Scripture and your determination, but you will never turn me away from my Church no matter how hard you try. Because I don’t look to you and your interpretations for my faith.
Believe me, I know the Bible as well as any average individual who is intellectually engaged in their faith and I love my Bible as well. I am not taking anything away from the Bible. I just don’t believe that it is the only source of God’s Word. And I certainly don’t believe that just because it doesn’t have a directive from God telling me to venerate the mother of Christ, that it’s wrong to do so.
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👍 :dancing: :clapping:

Good for you!
 
Realcatholicgk;4380282]**QUOTE=Good Fella]
*
Originally Posted by justasking4
Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was being venerated by the angel?
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Realcatholicgk
I think it’s time JA4 learns if the angel Gabriel can venerate Mary with his singular salutation “Hail, full of grace,” then so must we. ***
:harp:
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**

Yes, and so does scripture, my Bible thumping friend! Verb 1.venerate -** regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; reverence, revere, fear, esteem, respect, value, prise, prize - regard highly; think much of;
Do you believe all these terms in the defintion you gave were in the mind of the angel i.e. consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; reverence, fear?
However, now knowing that and the saluation from the angel to mary You will of course deny it by one of several things:
  1. It wasn’t a angel!
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It was an angel
  1. He was talking to the baby even though he said Hail Mary!
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He was talking to Mary
  1. Just because he said that it isn’t considered veneration "regard with feelings of respect " because the defination didn’t come from a protestant bible
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I think parts of the definition apply but not all.
  1. You will say “Who does this apply to? How are we as individuals to apply this event to ourselves”?
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Good question. Scripture is clear that we should consider Mary “blessed” in her part but it never exhorts us to pray to her nor do the Scriptures give her the exalted titles and powers that the Catholic church does.
So, what does God’s teaching to us all mean to you? Not a thing I am sure!:eek:
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No. I find it amazing that God would use a humble woman to bring the Christ into the world to save humanity in the way that He did. I find it amazing that He live with fallen men and used then to bring the gospel message that saves us when we don’t deserve it.
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine.
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Believing the things the Catholic church teaches is not part of the gospel message. The Gospels don’t attribute any intercessory power to Mary or that she is necessary for salvation even though many catholic writers claim in their writings that she is.
Could St Augustine have actually been prophetizing, about people of the Protestant persuasion coming 1,000 years later?:eek:
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I don’t know…🤷
 
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justasking4:
Do you believe all these terms in the defintion you gave were in the mind of the angel i.e. consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; reverence, fear?

It was an angel

He was talking to Mary

I think parts of the definition apply but not all.

Good question. Scripture is clear that we should consider Mary “blessed” in her part but it never exhorts us to pray to her nor do the Scriptures give her the exalted titles and powers that the Catholic church does.

No. I find it amazing that God would use a humble woman to bring the Christ into the world to save humanity in the way that He did. I find it amazing that He live with fallen men and used then to bring the gospel message that saves us when we don’t deserve it.

Believing the things the Catholic church teaches is not part of the gospel message. The Gospels don’t attribute any intercessory power to Mary or that she is necessary for salvation even though many catholic writers claim in their writings that she is.

I don’t know…🤷

Disbelieving the things the Catholic church teaches is not part of the gospel message neither. The Gospels doesn’t have to attribute any intercessory power to Mary. Maybe Mary isn’t “necessary” for salvation now even though some Catholic writers indicate in their writings that she was very necessary. But she won’t stop it like worshiping a book would. You know, God’s false idol thing! Remember, without Mary, no Jesus!

You aren’t fighting very well. Are you sick? Good try anyway! :rolleyes:
God Bless
 
AshleyBelle said:
The Immaculate conception?

So you’re saying Christ’s gospel didn’t include his birth? His mother? Wow… what Bible are you reading?
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Correct, those facts are not the Gospel, but, ISTM, your Pope, who had yet to declare his infallibility at the time he declared Mary Immaculately conceived, either ignored that, and made it part of the Gospel, or, not knowing the Gospel, he added the IC to it out of ignorance, IMO.
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AshleyBelle:
Can you show me where it says Mary was not immaculately conceived?
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Yes, but Catholics reject the scripture that clearly demonstrate it.
 
Good_Fella said:
I think it’s time JA4 learns if the angel Gabriel can venerate Mary with his singular salutation “Hail, full of grace,” then so must we.
:harp:
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I agree. but, good luck with that!
justasking4 said:
It is absolutely amazing how a greeting of an angel to Mary has turned into all the various doctrines and titles of Mary. :eek:
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Isn’t it? I never counted all the hymns that have been written based on the angels coming to the shepherds, but I am sure it is vast. 👍
justasking4 said:
What are the charactistics of a person who worships the Bible?

Do you know presonally anyone who does?
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One who puts the bible over christ himself.

Yes, besides yourself, I know quite a few well meaning christians that do this.

but what does that have to do with the topic?
justasking4 said:
Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was being venerated by the angel?
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I suggest you go back and read the answers to your previous posts of this question. 👍
justasking4 said:
Do you believe all these terms in the defintion you gave were in the mind of the angel i.e. consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; reverence, fear?
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good question! why don’t you ask gabriel what was in his mind?
justasking4 said:
He was talking to Mary
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since talking requires vocal cords, and angels don’t have any, how do you suppose this happened?
justasking4 said:
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I think parts of the definition apply but not all.
Scripture is clear that we should consider Mary “blessed” in her part but it never exhorts us to pray to her nor do the Scriptures give her the exalted titles and powers that the Catholic church does.
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well, this is where you fell off the rails, ja4. the church did not exalt Mary, god did (sorry my shift key is sticking). Mary says this specifically, long before the church was born. we are all in agreeement that power comes from god. 👍 Mary has whatever god gave her.
justasking4 said:
No. I find it amazing that God would use a humble woman to bring the Christ into the world to save humanity in the way that He did. I find it amazing that He live with fallen men and used then to bring the gospel message that saves us when we don’t deserve it.
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at least you have not lost the ability to be amazed. that means there is hope for you.
justasking4 said:
Believing the things the Catholic church teaches is not part of the gospel message. The Gospels don’t attribute any intercessory power to Mary or that she is necessary for salvation even though many catholic writers claim in their writings that she is.
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You are free to reject any parts of the gospel message you wish. Many who heard Christ did the same, and He did not run after them.
justasking4 said:
I don’t know…🤷
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a truer statement has seldom ever been made. 😉
 
Peter_J said:
Originally Posted by justasking4
As you can see the idea of her assumption is based on a false gospel and its centuries after the purported event.

Peter J
False gospel? No, I’m afraid I don’t see that.
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Here is what some Catholic scholars have said:

‘The first express witness in the West to a genuine assumption comes to us in an apocryphal Gospel, the Transitus Beatae Mariae of Pseudo–Melito’ (Juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. l (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), p. 149). Roman Catholic theologian, Ludwig Ott, likewise affirms these facts when he says:
The idea of the bodily assumption of Mary is first expressed in certain transitus–narratives of the fifth and sixth centuries. Even though these are apocryphal they bear witness to the faith of the generation in which they were written despite their legendary clothing. The first Church author to speak of the bodily ascension of Mary, in association with an **apocryphal transitus **B.M.V., is St. Gregory of Tours’ (Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford: Tan, 1974), pp. 209–210).
The account of Pseudo-Melito, like the rest of the Transitus literature, is admittedly valueless as history, as an historical report of Mary’s death and corporeal assumption; under that aspect the historian is justified in dismissing it with a critical distaste (Juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. l (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), p. 150)."

The bodily assumption of Mary is based on these apocryphal gospels which were condemned by the church as being false.
 
RobGentner;4382394]
Disbelieving the things the Catholic church teaches is not part of the gospel message neither. The Gospels doesn’t have to attribute any intercessory power to Mary. Maybe Mary isn’t “necessary” for salvation now even though some Catholic writers indicate in their writings that she was very necessary.
Should these writers who wrote these things be rebuked for doing so?
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But she won’t stop it like worshiping a book would. You know, God’s false idol thing! Remember, without Mary, no Jesus!
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Are you asserting here that Mary’ was essential and necessary for Jesus to come into the world?

If Mary had said no there would be no way for Jesus to come?
You aren’t fighting very well. Are you sick? Good try anyway! :rolleyes:
God Bless
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I almost missed you. Haven’t seen you in awile and i thought you put me on your ignore list… :extrahappy: :dancing: :love:
 
justasking4 said:
The bodily assumption of Mary is based on these apocryphal gospels which were condemned by the church as being false.
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You seem to be employing a false dichotomy here.

The Transitus Beatae Mariae of Pseudo–Melito was not chosen by the Church as part of the Bible. But are we therefore to assume that it was “condemned by the Church as being false”? By that logic we’d also have to say that the Didache was “condemned by the Church as being false”. (If I’m misunderstanding your argument, please correct me.)

P.S. Granted, some books that were not included in the Bible are in fact false gospels, e.g. the Gospel of Thomas.
 
Not ALL the books that didn’t make it into the cannon were declared “false.” Like the previous poster said…if that were true we’d have to declare writings like the Didache as false.
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The writing you referenced didn't make it into the cannon because it couldn't be directly traced to an apostle, which was one of the requirements the CHURCH set when determining which books were inspired:)

The books that WERE heretical and false, were declared as such, and none of the heretical teachings have ever been incorporated into the church.
 
justasking4 said:
Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was being venerated by the angel?
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He saluted her with a salutation that up to that moment had been given only to heads of state - Caesar, King David, etc.

(That’s why she wondered at this manner of greeting, and pondered in her heart what it might mean.)
 
jmcrae said:
He saluted her with a salutation that up to that moment had been given only to heads of state - Caesar, King David, etc.

(That’s why she wondered at this manner of greeting, and pondered in her heart what it might mean.)
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How beautiful is our mother. She is God’s greatest creation. She is the shining example of saying yes to God at all times.
 
justasking4 Got a question. Just for you Love, just for you. Are you ready? Ready or not here it comes.

How can Mary be full of Grace and still be sinFull? Got that on another thread and it is awesome.

Can’t wait to hear your response. And I don’t think I need to show you where it says in the Bible that Mary is Full of Grace!

But if you could for me Love, show me where it says in the Bible that Mary the Mother of Christ is full of sins. Full of Grace is what my bible says.

Can’t wait to hear from you!
 
rinnie said:
justasking4 Got a question. Just for you Love, just for you. Are you ready? Ready or not here it comes.

How can Mary be full of Grace and still be sinFull? Got that on another thread and it is awesome.

Can’t wait to hear your response. And I don’t think I need to show you where it says in the Bible that Mary is Full of Grace!

But if you could for me Love, show me where it says in the Bible that Mary the Mother of Christ is full of sins. Full of Grace is what my bible says.

Can’t wait to hear from you!
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I can already answer for her… considering that she just repeats the same nonsensical arguments over and over again

Romans 3:23

“for all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”

SEE THERE! Dont’ you see it! That translates to “MARY SINNED!” Obviously 🤷
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And then..we all naturally refute this argument... as we have over and over and over..
And if that’s an absolute, then you have to apply it to Jesus as well. “For all have sinned” It doesn’t say "all have sinned except Jesus.
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And if we are to make an exception for Jesus, why can we NOT make an exception for Mary?
And after all this has been debated around and around…

She’ll just simply point out once again that it’s not in the BIBLE so it doesn’t matter.

At which point we ask where the Bible says it MUST be in the Bible,

and then she will tell us we’re building a straw man, and we’ll run in more circles.
 
AshleyBelle said:
I can already answer for her… considering that she just repeats the same nonsensical arguments over and over again

Romans 3:23

“for all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.”

SEE THERE! Dont’ you see it! That translates to “MARY SINNED!” Obviously 🤷
Code: 
And then..we all naturally refute this argument... as we have over and over and over..
And if that’s an absolute, then you have to apply it to Jesus as well. “For all have sinned” It doesn’t say "all have sinned except Jesus.
Code: 
And if we are to make an exception for Jesus, why can we NOT make an exception for Mary?
And after all this has been debated around and around…

She’ll just simply point out once again that it’s not in the BIBLE so it doesn’t matter.

At which point we ask where the Bible says it MUST be in the Bible,

and then she will tell us we’re building a straw man, and we’ll run in more circles.
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But here is our case. It say Mary FULL OF GRACE. It say’s it black and white. Now she must show us where it says Mary full of Sin. See what I mean.
 
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