Can Mary be Sinless and Intercede for you?

[RubyT]

To TruthFaithLove. After reading your responses to Mannyfit I see no truth faith or love in your thinking. Take a look in the mirror. Before you start calling people heretics and cursing them. Shame Shame.

As Catholics we believe in the Trinity and we also believe that Mother Mary being full of Grace can intercede for us not because she is God but because she is full of Holy Grace.

Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of GOD pray for our sinners now and in the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[justasking4]

To TruthFaithLove. After reading your responses to Mannyfit I see no truth faith or love in your thinking. Take a look in the mirror. Before you start calling people heretics and cursing them. Shame Shame.

As Catholics we believe in the Trinity and we also believe that Mother Mary being full of Grace can intercede for us not because she is God but because she is full of Holy Grace.

Hail Mary! Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amoung women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary Mother of GOD pray for our sinners now and in the hour of our death. Amen.

If Mary prays for you at the hour of your death does that mean you will be saved from hell? Is it necessary for her to pray for a catholic at this most critical time? What if a catholic does not ask for her help at the time of death?

 

[AshleyBelle]

If Mary prays for you at the hour of your death does that mean you will be saved from hell? Is it necessary for her to pray for a catholic at this most critical time? What if a catholic does not ask for her help at the time of death?

You should try asking her Fortunately, our blessed mother has a lot more patience with inquisitive children than any of us on CAF.

 

[RobHom]

Are you also a product of these RCIA classes? Do they teach you to think you can read minds over the net and draw your conclusions with people instead of real dialogue?

No, I am a “cradle Catholic” who has been a Catholic (Latin Rite) for 58 years. I am neither clairvoyant or one who leaps to conclusions. I am merely pointing out your repeated “foibles”. For you to deny that you do precisely what I said you do is to “lie”.

What you seek is not “dialogue” you seek to mislead others and try to convert them to your way. In that you have much in common with Planten and Muslim Woman. You can deny it 'til the cows come home, chickens have lips, and pigs fly, but it won’t change reality…will it?

 

[justasking4]

No, I am a “cradle Catholic” who has been a Catholic (Latin Rite) for 58 years. I am neither clairvoyant or one who leaps to conclusions. I am merely pointing out your repeated “foibles”. For you to deny that you do precisely what I said you do is to “lie”.

What you seek is not “dialogue” you seek to mislead others and try to convert them to your way. In that you have much in common with Planten and Muslim Woman. You can deny it 'til the cows come home, chickens have lips, and pigs fly, but it won’t change reality…will it?

You certainly do leap to conclusions. As you have said “You can deny it 'til the cows come home, chickens have lips, and pigs fly, but it won’t change reality…will it? ”

 

[RobHom]

If Mary prays for you at the hour of your death does that mean you will be saved from hell?

Only God can answer that question.

Is it necessary for her to pray for a catholic at this most critical time? What if a catholic does not ask for her help at the time of death?

The questions as usual are “obtuse”.

But the answer would be… I suppose, that since we learn the “Hail Mary” as children and say it all of our lives, we have asked for her prayers and intercession on our behalf from the very moment we first said the prayer, thus it would not be necessary to stop the chain of events in a death to say the prayer… That answer was not “sarcastic” by the way…

Also…cheesy amateurish ad hominem comments are not beneficial for you to make…

 

[RobHom]

You certainly do leap to conclusions. As you have said “You can deny it 'til the cows come home, chickens have lips, and pigs fly, but it won’t change reality…will it? ”

It seems that when you are boxed in…you tend to run for the gutter.
I gave you an honest answer…you have a problem dealing with honesty. I am not leaping to conclusions…merely stating facts. You need to deal with reality a little bit better…

 

[RubyT]

Going to Hell has nothing to do with Mother Mary. Only Jesus can save us from Hell and give us everlasting life. The prayer Hail Mary is a request to Mother Mary to pray for us as sinners that God (the trinity) will forgive our sins. From now until Death we ask that she pray (intercede with prayer) for our souls. She is full of Grace. God given grace and thus God has high value in what she prays on our behalf. I hope this answers your question.

 

[justasking4]

Only God can answer that question.

The questions as usual are “obtuse”.

But the answer would be… I suppose, that since we learn the “Hail Mary” as children and say it all of our lives, we have asked for her prayers and intercession on our behalf from the very moment we first said the prayer, thus it would not be necessary to stop the chain of events in a death to say the prayer… That answer was not “sarcastic” by the way…

Also…cheesy amateurish ad hominem comments are not beneficial for you to make…

Since such an exhortation is not taught in Scripture to pray to Mary at the hour of death do you know when this first started? Did Christians in the second century pray this?

 

[racing59]

The belief in Mary as our mother is not exclusively Catholic, I have found it in the Koran and in other Christian Churches. I am not Roman Catholic, yet as a Messianic Jew I claim her as my mother and she can pray for me Rev.8:3-5 the angels take the prayers of the saints to the thrown of God, they can intercede in heaven on our behalf. The Catholic Churches greatest evidence on Mary can be found in Scripture, especially in the Book of Revelation. Sad to say the Catholic Church has no official doctrine on Revelation it is still a mystery to the Church. This is what I had a problem with CC was there are many Scriptures that have not been revealed to it and can not be revealed to an individual, by CC teaching. Yet the Bible reveals them, example the two trees in the center of Eden in Gen.2:9. CC has no doctrine on " The Tree of Life" yet the Bible clearly tells us what it is. Study Scott Hahn’s Salvation History and you will find great resistance against it! Scripture calls us to test everything for it’s worth. The Holy Spirit was given to all man not just a chosen few or one. It sad that the greatest Scriptures on behalf of Mary you will not find in CC doctrine. Even the Koran dedicates a chapter to her. I’m not bashing CC, I’m expressing my experience. CC is not all inclusive in the late 70’s the Charismatic movement ( Gifts of the Holy Spirit) was squashed in most parishes. I have a problem with squashing the Holy Spirit and persecuting any one who believes in the gifts. Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to all of us not just the leader of the Catholic Church.

 

[RobHom]

Since such an exhortation is not taught in Scripture to pray to Mary at the hour of death do you know when this first started? Did Christians in the second century pray this?

Lets see what we can provide for you on this subject!

Also… In this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4397966#post4397966 I posted a number of sources for information regarding “Tradition and Sacred Tradition” which you might find useful and could answer some of your questions.

Here is some information regarding the “Hail Mary” that may answer some of your questions:

newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm

memorare.com/mary/marianprayershistory.html

On the link immediately above… please page down to the bottom of the page and read the lines below the words Sub Tuum. It does provide some information you should find illuminating…

This link will add some “edification”… immaculateheartworks.com/subtuum.html

If you read that link above all the way through…you will find that the Sub Tuum was the “forerunner” of the current “Hail Mary” and that yes…it was said by Christians in the 2d Century and this has been verified by ancient scrolls that were found in Egypt.

 

[justasking4]

Lets see what we can provide for you on this subject!

Also… In this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4397966#post4397966 I posted a number of sources for information regarding “Tradition and Sacred Tradition” which you might find useful and could answer some of your questions.

Here is some information regarding the “Hail Mary” that may answer some of your questions:

newadvent.org/cathen/07110b.htm

memorare.com/mary/marianprayershistory.html

On the link immediately above… please page down to the bottom of the page and read the lines below the words Sub Tuum. It does provide some information you should find illuminating…

This link will add some “edification”… immaculateheartworks.com/subtuum.html

If you read that link above all the way through…you will find that the Sub Tuum was the “forerunner” of the current “Hail Mary” and that yes…it was said by Christians in the 2d Century and this has been verified by ancient scrolls that were found in Egypt.

Thanks for the data. For discussion sake i’d like to focus on the Sub Tuum

which says-
“This prayer was found on a 3rd century papyrus in Egypt, making it one of the oldest verifiable prayers to Mary. It emphasizes the Blessed Virgin’s role as intercessor, and is one of the few non-European prayers to gain popularity in the Latin Rite Church.”

As you can see this is at least a couple centuries removed from the apostles. Secondly, does it mean that just because it was found on a papyrus scroll that it was the universal teaching of the church at the time?

Thirdly, just because its popular does not mean its true. We see all kinds of things today that are popular but are false.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

You certainly do leap to conclusions. As you have said “You can deny it 'til the cows come home, chickens have lips, and pigs fly, but it won’t change reality…will it? ”

**Hey JA4, I got here late, this sounds interesting! Are you actually thinking about starting a new religion based on cows coming home, chicken lips, and flying pigs but you think that won’t change reality? Take a look at what happened when you guys said “If it isn’t in the book we won’t believe it!” Based on that, I actually think this new religion has promise. But if I was you, I would check with the JWs, Mormons and SDA just to make sure it isn’t part of their doctrines already. If not, You got my vote, I say go for it! Some people are sure to follow you! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Thanks for the data. For discussion sake i’d like to focus on the Sub Tuum

which says-
“This prayer was found on a 3rd century papyrus in Egypt, making it one of the oldest verifiable prayers to Mary. It emphasizes the Blessed Virgin’s role as intercessor, and is one of the few non-European prayers to gain popularity in the Latin Rite Church.”

As you can see this is at least a couple centuries removed from the apostles. Secondly, does it mean that just because it was found on a papyrus scroll that it was the universal teaching of the church at the time?

Thirdly, just because its popular does not mean its true. We see all kinds of things today that are popular but are false.

JA4 just be careful " Thirdly, just because its popular does not mean its true. We see all kinds of things today that are popular but are false" Don’t you think that is going to make a lot of your Protestant brethern angry talking about their denominations like that? Just a friendly warning!

 

[Henning]

What do Mary’s intercessions do for a person? As a Christian already, how would I or anyone else benefit from her intercessions?

 

[AshleyBelle]

What do Mary’s intercessions do for a person? As a Christian already, how would I or anyone else benefit from her intercessions?

Well I can speak for myself personally on this one, if it helps a little:)

The Bible says “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” and also that we should build one another up in prayer…that we have “a cloud of witnesses…” Mary, being the perfect model of obedience and faithfulness to Christ, is the best advocate we have I could ask my neigbor or my brother to pray for me (and I should) but I should also ask my mother to pray for me… Jesus hears our prayers, and whatever is close to the heart of Mary is also close to His heart.

Think of the wedding feast in scripture… Mary came to her Son and told Him there was no wine… Why did she do that? Of course He knew there wasn’t wine…and He didn’t need His MOM to tell Him… He asked her “woman, why does this concern me? My Hour has not yet come…” And She told them “Do whatever He tells you.” As she continues to tell us today!

Even though His hour had not yet come, Jesus took the request of His mother especially to heart… She still obeyed Him and accepted His will whether it was what she asked for or not…(which is what WE as Christians should all strive to do!)… And because of the humble, faithful heart of His Mother, Jesus turned the water into wine!

The key though..is not to get into the mindset that "well if I ask mary to pray for me...then Jesus will do whatever I want!" Rather.. I am humble, and unworthy to ask this....I will pray with my Mother, the Mother of God, to help me come before Christ with the desires of My heart. But I will still concede to do "whatever He tells me" ...His will before my own.

Also… personally, devotion to Mary has deepened my love and devotion to Christ so much! By accepting her as my Mother, I feel connected to her Son in such a close, familial way. It’s no longer an abstract, spiritual, undefinable relationship… But rather, my relationship with Jesus feels like He truly is a part of my family, that I have been adopted and joined to Him…Understanding the role of Mary my mother and growing in devotion to her has tied me to Christ so much more than I ever felt as a protestant I wish I could explain it a little more clearly… But Mary, for me has been the “key” to growing in faith and love… She is truly a gift and a blessing! God knew we needed a mother!

 

[RobHom]

Thanks for the data. For discussion sake i’d like to focus on the Sub Tuum

which says-
“This prayer was found on a 3rd century papyrus in Egypt, making it one of the oldest verifiable prayers to Mary. It emphasizes the Blessed Virgin’s role as intercessor, and is one of the few non-European prayers to gain popularity in the Latin Rite Church.”

As you can see this is at least a couple centuries removed from the apostles. Secondly, does it mean that just because it was found on a papyrus scroll that it was the universal teaching of the church at the time?

If it is a 3rd century scroll…it would indicate that it was written in the 200’s AD… so it would have been at most 2 centuries. The fact that this scroll was dated to then implies that for it to have been recorded as such, it bore some lasting importance. Coupling that with the fact that Origen commented on it, seems to make it clear that it wasn’t exactly a “passing fancy”. It appears to have been a rather accepted teaching. As to whether or not it was “universal”… I can’t really say, but it definitely appears that it was more wide spread than originally thought up until 1938.

Keep in mind that there have been other scrolls found that have validated things…like the Apocrypha… here is a source for that information: jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/apocrypha.html These scrolls were found by accident in 1947. So, it would seem reasonable that there is even more yet to be found…or at least the possibility exists. I think that we may find more and the information contained within them will explain things further… Basically given the information found on the scrolls related to the Sub Tuum…it would seem that the belief was in place for quite some time.

Thirdly, just because its popular does not mean its true. We see all kinds of things today that are popular but are false.

Hmmmm, like “sola scriptura”…

 

[RubyT]

Originally Posted by Scientiphic
It says “In the beginning…”. So the creator is the beginning. So how does Mary fit in as the creator’s mother?

God is the creator. Mary birthed a human named Jesus. Jesus is part of the Trilogy of God the creator which includes the Father, The son and The Holy Spirit. Jesus is not a separate entity He is part of God. Therefore although Jesus was born a human He also had His Father in Him (His Divinity) and His Spirit in Him.

Father + Son + Spirit = God the creator.
You cannot rationalize this with human thinking it is a spiritual concept. You are trying to utilize human time with the time of creation and the birth of Christ. This is why you are confused and will never understand that Mary is the Mother of God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus and thus the Mother of God since Jesus is one part of God. You cannot separate the Son from the Father nor the Spirit. Spiritually they cannot be separated- but you are trying to separate them scientifically.

Below is an an analogy to clarify the concept:

Think of this like an apple; there is the skin, the core and the fleshy part. If you cut them apart and lay them on a table will you still call it an apple or will it be 3 different entities. They are not really an apple anymore are they? Each individual part makes up the apple but separate them and they are no longer an apple they are the skin of an apple, the core of an apple and the flesh of the apple (but not really an apple). One apple - not separated into lumps.

Mary bore a son (the fleshy part of the apple), the Father is the Core(with seeds to create more apples) and the skin is the Spirit that binds them all together. One entity we call God.

So you are trying to separate Jesus from God (because He was born of Mary) but they are One entity. They are one God thus Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is part of God. A spiritual concept not a tangible concept.

 

[hawkeye]

Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Is Mary, god? No. she’s a mortal. So how can she be good or sinless when Jesus says ONLY GOD IS GOOD?

So is Jesus a sinner when He clearly stated that** only God is good** ?

 

[Henning]

Well I can speak for myself personally on this one, if it helps a little

The Bible says “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” and also that we should build one another up in prayer…that we have “a cloud of witnesses…” Mary, being the perfect model of obedience and faithfulness to Christ, is the best advocate we have I could ask my neigbor or my brother to pray for me (and I should) but I should also ask my mother to pray for me… Jesus hears our prayers, and whatever is close to the heart of Mary is also close to His heart.

Think of the wedding feast in scripture… Mary came to her Son and told Him there was no wine… Why did she do that? Of course He knew there wasn’t wine…and He didn’t need His MOM to tell Him… He asked her “woman, why does this concern me? My Hour has not yet come…” And She told them “Do whatever He tells you.” As she continues to tell us today!

Even though His hour had not yet come, Jesus took the request of His mother especially to heart… She still obeyed Him and accepted His will whether it was what she asked for or not…(which is what WE as Christians should all strive to do!)… And because of the humble, faithful heart of His Mother, Jesus turned the water into wine!

The key though..is not to get into the mindset that "well if I ask mary to pray for me...then Jesus will do whatever I want!" Rather.. I am humble, and unworthy to ask this....I will pray with my Mother, the Mother of God, to help me come before Christ with the desires of My heart. But I will still concede to do "whatever He tells me" ...His will before my own.

Also… personally, devotion to Mary has deepened my love and devotion to Christ so much! By accepting her as my Mother, I feel connected to her Son in such a close, familial way. It’s no longer an abstract, spiritual, undefinable relationship… But rather, my relationship with Jesus feels like He truly is a part of my family, that I have been adopted and joined to Him…Understanding the role of Mary my mother and growing in devotion to her has tied me to Christ so much more than I ever felt as a protestant I wish I could explain it a little more clearly… But Mary, for me has been the “key” to growing in faith and love… She is truly a gift and a blessing! God knew we needed a mother!

thank you, I get familial…

but…

How does Mary intercede for the 1000s say, that are praying to her at a given moment simultaneously on earth?